Current Trial George Pell - Suppression Order Post Conviction *LIFTED

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Kurve

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So how often, hence the onus of proof.

As a matter of law.

The people though, need to be free to make their own judgements so they can navigate as safely as possible through life.

Most who grew up Ballarat side of Melbourne, know what was going on in the schools and some of us will know someone whose life was lost to substance abuse or suicide. I still can't drive through Ballarat without feeling a sense of sadness.
 

Kwality

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As a matter of law.

The people though, need to be free to make their own judgements so they can navigate as safely as possible through life.

Most who grew up Ballarat side of Melbourne, know what was going on in the schools and some of us will know someone whose life was lost to substance abuse or suicide. I still can't drive through Ballarat without feeling a sense of sadness.

Many people dont need the onus of proof to decide guilt or innocence. I'm not one.
 

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Kurve

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Many people dont need the onus of proof to decide guilt or innocence. I'm not one.

ha ha that's some weird kind of virtue signalling

If your child came to you and said s/he'd been molested by a priest, you reported it to the police, they laid charges but with not enough proof the priest is acquitted or the charges are dropped, would you send your child back in to the same situation with that priest?
 

WireHawk

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As was reported in one of the ABC docos on Pell, he used to be in the pool changerooms
naked and standing in front of young kids cornering them. The guy who related this story
yelled at Pell "George stop it!". That guy seemed very credible to me. No reason to lie.

If Pell would indulge in such behaviour, it exhibits abberant sexual proclivities towards minors.
It's not a big leap to more "hands on" actions. Pell seems all wrong to me.
 

Kwality

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ha ha that's some weird kind of virtue signalling

If your child came to you and said s/he'd been molested by a priest, you reported it to the police, they laid charges but with not enough proof the priest is acquitted or the charges are dropped, would you send your child back in to the same situation with that priest?

Indeed I'd believe my child & follow it through. When you are directly involved in anything, you have an insight that we dont have in cases played out in public.
 

Angry Red Bull

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No one in their right mind supports an abuser or a child sex abuser. No one. Certainly not me. I despise them and empathize completely with their victims. Supporting the rule of law relating to their crimes doesn't equate to supporting them. It doesn't on any rational thinking. If someone has maladapted irrational thinking like that to suggest the two are the same it usually stems from the psychological phenomenon of 'splitting' a defence mechanism of black and white thinking that makes something it's not to protect themselves from the idea that causes them discomfort. Victims of abuse start splitting to protect themselves in order to cope. It's sad for sure. it's a maladapted response if the splitting then gives rise to false accusations of innocent parties. Then it becomes harmful. 'Splitting' is a narcissistic trait that can have origins in the ashes of abuse as victim as can other narcissistic traits.....not a well known fact.

The answer of course is to get help from a qualified professional who can aid effective recovery from trauma.
 

jason_recliner

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Indeed I'd believe my child & follow it through. When you are directly involved in anything, you have an insight that we dont have in cases played out in public.
You'd likely have the same level of insight that the parents of those boys have.
 

Angry Red Bull

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Catholic Church has indicated that it will rely on the Ellis defence in claims against it by father of the person who was allegedly the victim in the Pell case. The Ellis defence can apply to negate actions against it because the church is an unincorporated association and no one can be identified to sue. It's a legal manoeuvre to effectively halt the claim. Laws were changed to prevent this but only for the victim not the parents. Given Pell was freed upon quashing the conviction, it's probably a sensible outcome. Probably makes the claim dead in the water you would say.
 

Kwality

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Catholic Church has indicated that it will rely on the Ellis defence in claims against it by father of the person who was allegedly the victim in the Pell case. The Ellis defence can apply to negate actions against it because the church is an unincorporated association and no one can be identified to sue. It's a legal manoeuvre to effectively halt the claim. Laws were changed to prevent this but only for the victim not the parents. Given Pell was freed upon quashing the conviction, it's probably a sensible outcome. Probably makes the claim dead in the water you would say.

FYI.
The Ellis defence:
 

Angry Red Bull

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FYI.
The Ellis defence:

I struggle to understand how Pell can be said to have created a civil wrong for nervous shock for a parent at finding out about charges if in fact the HC has already decided that the charges shouldn't have been brought because "There was a significant chance he was innocent". Is it simply because the standard of proof differs? so are they trying to prove on balance of probabilities he committed the offence and then it follows that same balance of probabilities he caused the nervous shock.
 

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Kwality

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I struggle to understand how Pell can be said to have created a civil wrong for nervous shock for a parent at finding out about charges if in fact the HC has already decided that the charges shouldn't have been brought because "There was a significant chance he was innocent". Is it simply because the standard of proof differs? so are they trying to prove on balance of probabilities he committed the offence and then it follows that same balance of probabilities he caused the nervous shock.

It is a 'no win, no fee' action?

Father of former choirboy launches civil action against Cardinal George Pell and Catholic Church

Media by the ABC.
 

utility

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Catholic Church has indicated that it will rely on the Ellis defence in claims against it by father of the person who was allegedly the victim in the Pell case. The Ellis defence can apply to negate actions against it because the church is an unincorporated association and no one can be identified to sue. It's a legal manoeuvre to effectively halt the claim. Laws were changed to prevent this but only for the victim not the parents. Given Pell was freed upon quashing the conviction, it's probably a sensible outcome. Probably makes the claim dead in the water you would say.
Have you got more info on that? I thought members of unincorporated associations are personally liable for the actions of the association.
 

Angry Red Bull

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Read up more. Pell is identifiable and can be sued. The Catholic church otherwise has no one who can be identified as involved. There is no legal entity as such. This outcome is peculiar to the Church. The assets of a protected trust holding assets for the Church can't be attacked because the trustees arent directly involved. That is how Ellis defence had applied before the change. Can still apply to claims by people other than victim even after law changes. In the case of Pell the church will indemnify Pell and pay any damages on his behalf if the verdict goes against him. Surely this means the evidence in the criminal trial will be viewed again to see if on a balance of probability he was responsible. Because if he isn't he can't be responsible for damages for nervous shock from the revelation the son was a victim.

At the time of the criminal trial there was talk about Austrac evidence of money transfers to interfere in the outcome. It was never stated whether that money came from Church for Pell or came from Church officials Pell was at the time investigating to help fund with witness tampering. The government has this information but it hasn't been made public to my knowledge. My personal view based upon opinion only was it was the latter
 

Kwality

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At the time of the criminal trial there was talk about Austrac evidence of money transfers to interfere in the outcome.

I question your timing:

'DECEMBER 2018
On December 11, a new jury rendered a unanimous verdict of guilty'



Police handed information on claims Vatican sent $1m to Australia in relation to George Pell sexual abuse trial​


By political reporters Jack Snape and Jade Macmillan

Posted Tue 20 Oct 2020 at 9:40pmTuesday 20 Oct 2020 at 9:40pm, updated Wed 21 Oct 2020 at 12:17am
 

Angry Red Bull

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I question your timing:

'DECEMBER 2018
On December 11, a new jury rendered a unanimous verdict of guilty'



Police handed information on claims Vatican sent $1m to Australia in relation to George Pell sexual abuse trial​


By political reporters Jack Snape and Jade Macmillan

Posted Tue 20 Oct 2020 at 9:40pmTuesday 20 Oct 2020 at 9:40pm, updated Wed 21 Oct 2020 at 12:17am

Austrac is a watchdog reporting unusual bank transfers. There was no mention of when exactly the transfer took place only that it allegedly came from the person nominated to allegedly influence the case to Pell's detriment.

It had long been suspected that enemies of Pell in the Vatican had been behind this, all related to his role investigating allegedly fraudulent activities in the church. I don't know what role the person has. Thank you though for providing those articles. I will look further info it.

Giovanni Beccui was a cardinal who was under investigation for fraud (started by Pell before he was charged) and resigned as a cardinal and has been charged with embezzlement in 2021. This is the link I had thought. If he has transferred funds to Aust it was likely picked up both in Vatican end and Aust end recipient by a witness for nefarious purposes.

I would love to know the name of witness

Working from memory but I recall that one of the two boys had retracted the allegations about Pell. It gave me concern that the allegations hadn't had substance. I will recheck facts
 
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Kwality

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Austrac is a watchdog reporting unusual bank transfers. There was no mention of when exactly the transfer took place only that it allegedly came from the person nominated to allegedly influence the case to Pell's detriment.

It had long been suspected that enemies of Pell in the Vatican had been behind this, all related to his role investigating allegedly fraudulent activities in the church. I don't know what role the person has. Thank you though for providing those articles. I will look further info it.

Giovanni Beccui was a cardinal who was under investigation for fraud (started by Pell before he was charged) and resigned as a cardinal and has been charged with embezzlement in 2021. This is the link I had thought. If he has transferred funds to Aust it was likely picked up both in Vatican end and Aust end recipient by a witness for nefarious purposes.

I would love to know the name of witness

Working from memory but I recall that one of the two boys had retracted the allegations about Pell. It gave me concern that the allegations hadn't had substance. I will recheck facts

At the time of the criminal trial
I'd suggest it wasnt raised until after the criminal case.

At this point the Austrac story is one of the many allegations tossed about. Chatter.
 

Angry Red Bull

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I'd suggest it wasnt raised until after the criminal case.

At this point the Austrac story is one of the many allegations tossed about. Chatter.

It takes time for Austrac so yes the report would have occurred afterwards.

Given this Cardinal is the transferor AND has been charged with embezzlement his transfer becomes highly suspicious in my mind. Someone has suggested the link to influencing Pell's case. That has to be police you would presume meaning they must be investigating someone in Aust too. I suspect it's a little more than chatter.
 

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