Current Trial George Pell - Suppression Order Post Conviction *LIFTED

Opine

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I'm passionate about justice for those who abuse children - which is something the Church has avoided at all costs for decades. This case plays into that.



No agenda. I replied to a post you made with my own thoughts on the matter - and replied once more to your reply to my post and have now replied to your latest message. Happy to end it there, mate. This isn't about you.
If your passionate about children who are abused, as you should be; does your position advocate for zero tolerance against child abuse?
 

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bigfarter

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If your passionate children who are abused, as you should be; does your position advocate for zero tolerance against child abuse?
I feel like this is a leading question and I'm not sure what you mean by "zero tolerance" against child abuse?
 

Opine

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I feel like this is a leading question and I'm not sure what you mean by "zero tolerance" against child abuse?
Of course its a leading question; I am trying to understand whether the underlying object in your statements is children's welfare, or choice of faith.
 

bigfarter

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So what is your point?
I'm gonna stop responding now because I feel like I explained my point very clearly and have been respectful in doing so. I don't know if my tone has come across differently than I intended or whether you are being deliberately obtuse. I'll leave that for others to decide and if I've been a pillock, they can call me out on it. Have a fine afternoon.
 

Opine

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I'm gonna stop responding now because I feel like I explained my point very clearly and have been respectful in doing so. I don't know if my tone has come across differently than I intended or whether you are being deliberately obtuse. I'll leave that for others to decide and if I've been a pillock, they can call me out on it. Have a fine afternoon.
Your tone was fine, but it didn't disguise your underlying agenda.
 

sprockets

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Taking into account the preceding few posts, is the abuse restricted to catholic priests or does the same problem exists in other mainstream religions? I was born and baptised catholic but have never been religious and consider myself a non-believer who has a tolerance for religion. If the issue is just with catholic priests it's a reasonable position to question the church itself IMO.

Maybe that discussion isn't for this topic/board though.
 

Opine

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Taking into account the preceding few posts, is the abuse restricted to catholic priests or does the same problem exists in other mainstream religions? I was born and baptised catholic but have never been religious and consider myself a non-believer who has a tolerance for religion. If the issue is just with catholic priests it's a reasonable position to question the church itself IMO.

Maybe that discussion isn't for this topic/board though.
That is precisely the point I was trying to illustrate.
 

bigfarter

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Taking into account the preceding few posts, is the abuse restricted to catholic priests or does the same problem exists in other mainstream religions? I was born and baptised catholic but have never been religious and consider myself a non-believer who has a tolerance for religion. If the issue is just with catholic priests it's a reasonable position to question the church itself IMO.

Maybe that discussion isn't for this topic/board though.
Abuse takes place in many different organisations, cultures and settings. I was limiting my discussion in this thread to the Church because it’s a thread about Pell. If it were a thread about Bryan Singer I’d discuss abuses in the context of children in Hollywood, etc.

I am also a baptised Catholic, for the record. But I have never been religious.
 

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Opine

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Taking into account the preceding few posts, is the abuse restricted to catholic priests or does the same problem exists in other mainstream religions? .
Interesting that you have restricted only to mainstream religions. If the discussion is worthy of encompassing other religions and their ministers, why restrict to mainstream religions?
 
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Opine

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The RC identified that the following features, amongst others, often facilitated sexual abuse;
• the ability to influence or control aspects of a child’s life, such as academic grades
• authority over a child, particularly in situations with significant control such as a residential setting
• spiritual or moral authority over a child
• opportunities to become close with a child and their family

They're not features restricted only to mainstream religious organisations.
 

bigfarter

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So the appeal will be heard on June 5 and 6. Apparently to be overseen by 3 judges as opposed to a jury. Having not much knowledge of how our courts work, I do wonder whether the public will have any more access to the testimony than we have to this point? It does make it very difficult to discuss the verdict fruitfully when, frankly, none of us are privy to all the information. It's a fine line, though, if the testimony is being kept private to protect the victim?
 

Opine

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So the appeal will be heard on June 5 and 6. Apparently to be overseen by 3 judges as opposed to a jury. Having not much knowledge of how our courts work, I do wonder whether the public will have any more access to the testimony than we have to this point? It does make it very difficult to discuss the verdict fruitfully when, frankly, none of us are privy to all the information. It's a fine line, though, if the testimony is being kept private to protect the victim?
Its an appeal on point/s of law, There is no need for a jury. The points argued, and the decision, will be made public. No need to be "obtuse" about the process
 

bigfarter

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Its an appeal on a point/s of law, There is no need for a jury. The points argued, and the decision, will be made public. No need to be obtuse about the process
Would this mean the testimony from the previous trial would remain private or is it one of the points that is being argued and will thus be available for public scrutiny?
 

Opine

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Would this mean the testimony from the previous trial would remain private or is it one of the points that is being argued and will thus be available for public scrutiny?
The identity of the victim/s may remain private, but the facts and arguments relied upon, and the eventual decision of the court will be made public; including the decision and reasoning of each of the judges.
 

bigfarter

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Thanks - as I say, not fully across how the appeal process works or when sealed information would be made public. Well, that will be good for healthy and informed debate then.
 

Opine

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Thanks - as I say, not fully across how the appeal process works or when sealed information would be made public. Well, that will be good for healthy and informed debate then.
Your welcome.
Although, I think the debate that may follow the appeal is more likely to frustrate. Appeals often focus on legal argument on narrow points of law. You may learn more about what happened, and the conduct of those involved, by referring to a report of the original trial.
 

Slartibartfast

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You are an excellent poster. But you would be even better if you took things like this out of your posting.
He is now saying he will still be on the team , just not the face of the defence team.
Think i have nailed it, his comments in court have shown him to be lacking compassion or understanding towards the victims.
 

Slartibartfast

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Interesting that you have restricted only to mainstream religions. If the discussion is worthy of encompassing other religions and their ministers, why restrict to mainstream religions?
I feel this thread is purely about Pell and the religion he represents.

Other religions and organisations are certainly worthy of there own thread regarding sexual abuse. Whitehead and Hutchins abused kids at puffing billy over four decades . A blinkered aprpoach to them allowed them free access to kids time and time again.

Point being , this is not a Catholic witch hunt but is just the organisation in question this time.
As someone who has the victims foremost in my mind the focus will always be on Pell and the Catholic Church. No witch hunt or political agenda.
I do believe the only way to prevent this happening again is for the church faithful to challenge the church with whats happened. All the laws , angry chatbaords, media attention will not be the catalyst for change.

Having been involved in sports clubs with junior teams it has been a long held practice that minors are never to be isolated with only one adult present. Does not matter what the circumstance, changerooms being the focus but there must be at least 2 adults to ensure the kids welfare is not relying on trust but a planned system to prevent abuse.

This internal regulation needs to embraced by the church , this needs to be driven by the catholic faithful who attend weekly for services , schooling or social events.
 

BlueE

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Interesting that you have restricted only to mainstream religions. If the discussion is worthy of encompassing other religions and their ministers, why restrict to mainstream religions?
I think in Catholic and other mainstream religions where we raise the leaders on a pedestal next to God, with rituals and ceremonial heirachy makes it hard to believe that sexual abuse of children has taken place. Certainly other "cult" religions have been found guilty in smaller numbers.

But abuses in the Catholic church are now being unmasked all over the world in huge numbers. A Church-commissioned report in 2004 said more than 4,000 US Roman Catholic priests had faced sexual abuse allegations in the last 50 years, in cases involving more than 10,000 children - mostly boys. This number is increasing exponentially with 1000 more names from Pennsylvania just released, as one example. A 2009 report found that sexual and psychological abuse was "endemic" in Catholic-run industrial schools and orphanages in Ireland for most of the 20th Century.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-44209971
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/14/us/catholic-church-sex-abuse-pennsylvania.html

But having just looked at summaries of the Mulligan report of children is South Australia in State Care where there were thousands of reports of sexual abuse and hundreds of deaths that anywhere there are adults holding power over children abuse can happen and continue unless there is transparency letting people know what happened and prosecutions where the abuser is held accountable and restitution of some sort is made.

Unfortunately in the SA example and with world wide abuses of children in the Catholic church, neither seems to have occurred. I hope the recent conviction of Pell shines a spotlight on the blocks that are still in place and all efforts are made to remove them.
 

shellyg

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This does not bode well for change within the Catholic Church. Grasping Armidale bishop Michael Kennedy during Sunday mass on Pell's conviction.

He told parishioners: “When you and I look at the cardinal’s life isn’t it reasonable to apply today’s gospel and think ‘surely a good tree doesn’t produce rotten fruit but good fruit?’

“There are many people who, on the information they have gleaned, cannot understand how the jury could have come to a guilty verdict,” he said.

“The evidence and testimonies, at least those that have come to public knowledge, seem to leave plenty of room for incredulity or ‘reasonable doubt’ to say the least.”


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/06/armidale-bishop-directs-catholic-schools-to-stop-asking-priests-for-working-with-children-checks?CMP=share_btn_tw
 

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