Current Trial George Pell - Suppression Order Post Conviction *LIFTED

sprockets

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Interesting that you have restricted only to mainstream religions. If the discussion is worthy of encompassing other religions and their ministers, why restrict to mainstream religions?
TBH I don't class 'small or little known' religions as real religions, many are started by kooks and wackos and many are started for non-religious reasons.
 

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Opine

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...abuses in the Catholic church are now being unmasked all over the world in huge numbers. A Church-commissioned report in 2004 said more than 4,000 US Roman Catholic priests had faced sexual abuse allegations in the last 50 years, in cases involving more than 10,000 children - mostly boys. This number is increasing exponentially with 1000 more names from Pennsylvania just released, as one example. A 2009 report found that sexual and psychological abuse was "endemic" in Catholic-run industrial schools and orphanages in Ireland for most of the 20th Century.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-44209971
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/14/us/catholic-church-sex-abuse-pennsylvania.html

But having just looked at summaries of the Mulligan report of children is South Australia in State Care where there were thousands of reports of sexual abuse and hundreds of deaths that anywhere there are adults holding power over children abuse can happen and continue unless there is transparency letting people know what happened and prosecutions where the abuser is held accountable and restitution of some sort is made.

Unfortunately in the SA example and with world wide abuses of children in the Catholic church, neither seems to have occurred. I hope the recent conviction of Pell shines a spotlight on the blocks that are still in place and all efforts are made to remove them.
Adding to those things that you have highlighted, I also think the Church may need to review it's current position on celibacy.
 
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Opine

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I think in Catholic and other mainstream religions where we raise the leaders on a pedestal next to God, with rituals and ceremonial heirachy makes it hard to believe that sexual abuse of children has taken place. Certainly other "cult" religions have been found guilty in smaller numbers.
Can you please expand on this. If I'm not-mistaken, it appears that you are leaving out non-mainstream organisations that may not, at least on their face, fit the technical definition of a "cult" Are you saying that non-mainstream religious organisations have not been/are not part of this issue?

Are you by any chance attempting to draw a distinction between, for example, independent Christian organisations or other independent religious organisations, and their mainstream variants?

Keep in mind that ceremony, group hierarchy, ritual, and elevating leaders on so called pedestals also exists in non-mainstream religious organisations. The robes may be replaced by a microphone and or band gear, the pedestal by a stage or place at the front of a room; the hierarchical deference that follows can be just as heightened as that in mainstream settings.
 
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BlueE

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Can you please expand on this. If I'm not-mistaken, it appears that you are leaving out non-mainstream organisations that may not, at least on their face, fit the technical definition of a "cult" Are you saying that non-mainstream religious organisations have been/are not part of this issue?

Are you by any chance attempting to draw a distinction between, for example, independent Christian organisations or other independent religious organisations, and their mainstream variants?

Keep in mind that ceremony, group hierarchy, ritual, and elevating leaders on so called pedestals also exists in non-mainstream religious organisations. The robes may be replaced by a microphone, the pedestal by a stage or place at the front of a room; the hierarchal order and the deference that follows can be just as powerful as that which occurs in mainstream settings.
No I'm not leaving out mainstream organisations. Specifically the Mulligan report investigated mainstream organisations whether religious or not.

In my opinion the rituals, robes and unconventional rules Priests have to abide by, combined with authoritarian nature of the Catholic church with the Pope having the keys to heaven is designed to place the Priests, Bishops and Cardinals on a pedestal and closer to God than the mere sheep of their flock.

Not giving others systems of religious worship a free pass, but has not as happened as systematically or affected as many in the world as abuse in the Catholic church has.
 

Opine

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No I'm not leaving out mainstream organisations. Specifically the Mulligan report investigated mainstream organisations whether religious or not.

In my opinion the rituals, robes and unconventional rules Priests have to abide by, combined with authoritarian nature of the Catholic church with the Pope having the keys to heaven is designed to place the Priests, Bishops and Cardinals on a pedestal and closer to God than the mere sheep of their flock.

Not giving others systems of religious worship a free pass, but has not as happened as systematically or affected as many in the world as abuse in the Catholic church has.
I think your confirming what the RC said, ie that a position of deference combined with other factors can facilitate abuse.
Your right in saying that there must be transparency and accountability. Things need to change; massively
 

BlueE

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I think your confirming what the RC said, ie that a position of deference combined with other factors can facilitate abuse.
Your right in saying that there must be transparency and accountability. Things need to change; massively
Correct. However the Catholic church has not implemented or started to implement the main findings of the RC so it doesn't give much confidnece that they are willing to change.
Also the report Shelly posted of the Priest defending Pell leaves me astounded that there is inability to accept not just the convictions and other accusations about him, but acknowledge that Pell was singled out in the RC as one who knew about and had protected other pedophile priests.
 

Opine

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Correct. However the Catholic church has not implemented or started to implement the main findings of the RC so it doesn't give much confidnece that they are willing to change.
Also the report Shelly posted of the Priest defending Pell leaves me astounded that there is inability to accept not just the convictions and other accusations about him, but acknowledge that Pell was singled out in the RC as one who knew about and had protected other pedophile priests.
The beauty of posited State law is that it overrides other laws. If the Church doesn't change on it's on, it will change under coercion.
 

sprockets

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Good discussion guys. Thinking about it, celibacy does seem to be a contributing factor. If we use jails as another example, normally straight men/women get into sexual relationships with other men/women and 'celibacy' often (not always) appears to be the reason. Off the top of my head I can't think of other examples where celibacy comes into play but others might give examples.

The problem is, if you're a strict or traditional catholic (or some other religions) you shouldn't be having sex outside marriage, so one could say these religious paedophiles aren't strict in their religion anyway.
 

shellyg

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Nine known allegations against Pell from exposure to assault and Last believes Pell set up the 'Melbourne Response' partly to protect himself.

The claims were lurid and unverified so Helen Last, the counsellor hired by the Catholic Church in Melbourne to assist victims of clerical abuse, agonised before reporting them to her superiors.

It was 1996 and the newly appointed archbishop, George Pell, had just set up the Melbourne Response to handle the rising numbers of sex abuse claims received by the archdiocese.

Ms Last says she developed suspicions about Pell very early during her work with the Archdiocese of Melbourne.
She heard many stories from victims of clergy sexual abuse in different parishes, especially that Pell knew what was happening and was protecting priests who were abusing children.


‘‘It was alleged to me early that Pell was among a group of offenders from Ballarat to Melbourne. They were part of the Ballarat organised clerical offending, which extended down to Laverton and around Melbourne.’’

https://www.smh.com.au/national/victoria/church-knew-pell-was-at-centre-of-decades-old-lurid-sex-claims-20190307-p512ci.html
 

Opine

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...unless there is transparency ...
A text I’ve been reading, discusses closed groups. It argues that, in the absence of external influence, the normative behaviours of those within a closed group are more likely to be skewed; so that normality reflects what has been accepted as normal within a limited environment. This is said to apply to any group, regardless of its purpose and function. In essence, the text argues that lack of transparency and external influence is more likely to distort normality. One might argue that the Church’s administration has been affected in this way.
 

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shellyg

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WHAT JUDGE PETER KIDD SAID WHEN SENTENCING PELL

* "The acts were sexually graphic. Both victims were visibly and audibly distressed during this offending"

* "You were confident your victims would not complain. It is fanciful to suggest that you may not have fully appreciated this"

* "There is an added layer of degradation and humiliation that each of your victims must have felt in knowing that their abuse had been witnessed by the other"

" You had had ample time to reflect upon your previous abuse .... despite this, you still indecently acted against (victim J), and did so with what I consider to be a degree of physical aggression and venom"

* I consider your moral culpability across both episodes to be high"

* "There was a clear relationship of trust with the victims, and you breached that trust and abused your position to facilitate this offending"

* "Your obvious status as Archbishop cast a powerful shadow over this offending"

* "I would characterise these breaches and abuses as grave"

* "You continued to offend with callous indifference to the victim's distress"

* "The offending which the jury has found you have engaged in was, on any view, breathtakingly arrogant"

* "There is no evidence of your remorse or contrition for me to act upon to reduce your sentence"

* "On the one hand I must punish and denounce you for this appalling offending. Yet on the other hand, I am conscious of the heavy reality that I am about to sentence you, a man of advanced years, who has led an otherwise blameless life, to a significant period of imprisonment, which will account for a good portion of the balance of your life"
 

BlueE

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I feel that the words Judge Kidd used were more harmful than the eventual sentence, and that's a good thing considering it was televised world wide. I hope someone puts a package of the most potent quotes together. I felt his sentence was carefully thought out to avoid appeal, as he was very fair to Pell in the eventual number of years he's serve.

Some of my favorite quotes were.

Breathtakingly arrogant' offending.

Chief Judge Kidd said the power imbalance between the victims and Pell as a senior church official was "stark".

"The brazenness of your conduct is indicative of your sense of authority and power in relation to the victims," he said.

"You may have thought you could control the situation by reason of your authority, as archbishop, whether or not that belief was well-founded.

"Such a state of mind would have been extraordinarily arrogant, but the offending which the jury has found you have engaged in was in any view breathtakingly arrogant."

"I consider your moral culpability across both episodes to be high"
 

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