Get rid of them

[Itze]

These players just have to go at season's end:

* Bowden (is the weak link at Richmond, simply not hard enough at it, gets phased easily, hears footsteps whenever the ball is coming to him, we'll get a great trade for him b/c other teams are under the illusion that he is a decent player)
* King (is more interested in gambling, will never be disciplined enough)
* Kellaway (has had his day, injury prone, need younger talent coming through)
* Rogers (time is up, getting on in years, a bit slow)
* Biddiscombe (not up to AFL standard)
* Houlihan (can not handle it at the top level)
* Cameron (getting too old and slow, need fresh talent)
* Vardy (simply will never make it as a footballer, is not clever enough)
* Mills (has had enough years to prove something, not up to it)

And Hilton, Tivendale, Fiora, Hall and Pettifer will have to prove something in the 2nd half of the year to prove their worth:

Your thoughts?

 

[Steve76]

list

I think pretty much everyone is in agreement with that synposis, looking across several threads that touch on this matter (that there are so many prob indicates how dissatisfied Tiger fans are with the list)


Thinking over the whole list issue, I actually don't think we are too far off the pace - our full strength team would go OK vs anyone. I think with a bit more tactical nous exercised by the coaching staff esp in reagrds to the use of Richo and forward structure. Our backline is pretty good, they work well together and are rarely beaten - we have not had a massive score kicked on us this year. The midfield is much stringer with all hands on deck and wins or breaks even with most midfields. Ironically, you would never think a forward line is a weakness that has Richo, Ottens and Staff all positioned there through a game and a couple of decent crumbers in Krak and Rodan. Clearly, it is not so much the personnel in the forward line but the problem lies within either the delivery or the tactics/structure that the coaches are instructing the players with - i.e where to run to, who to look for, where to kick to etc etc


In fact I think there are many widely regarded "good" players throughout the league that would be considered in the sanme light we consider hilton, pettifer, houlihan etc if they played for the tigers our under a similar game plan/structure (whatever that is). Conversely, these players could go elsewhere and may do well under a different coaching staff.

I think our personnel is OK, but the game plan needs adjusting - we can give the premiership a shake if we fix this.

Perhaps a start maybe looking back to how we played at the start of the year - i could not remember a time when we played through the corridor as much as we did, and as we did it, surprise, surprise we were scoring plenty of goals !!!! Shock, horror - perhaps the players may keep this in mind for the rest of the season......as the last 4 weeks have seen as revert back to switching the ball to one side out of defence , kick along boundary line, kick along boundary line, then kick to contest or kick to man (Richo usually) in a pocket - and funnily enough the goals have dried up.

Things have to change....

 

[Rodan#18.]

Originally posted by Itze
These players just have to go at season's end:

agree overall.
hyde and nicholls might also get looked at.

tivvers has been ok though...quite good actually.

 

[tigerT]

sheez mate, ur a bit harsh on tivers!!! hes been in our top half dozen players to-date no doubt!!!


get rid of the oldwer guys like cameron, rogers, kellaway, get rid of no hopers like king and bidders, prob mills too and trade nearly anything that moves for some real quality

 

[GhostofJimJess]

Tivendale and Bowden would both be in the top half dozen or so in our club B&F as we speak, with the likes of Cogs, Gas, Campbell, Staff, AK, Johnson and Chaff.

A defintie case of misdirected animosity.

Fair enough if you want to trade them when they have currency - that's different. But certainly not because they're no good.

 

[Lidge]

Hope you don't mind an outsider giving an 'unbiased' slant and observation. But you'll probably all reply to this post telling me to go and **** myself or something to that effect.

I reckon Richmond have a fairly talented list, good coaching & footy dept, but where I reckon you fall down is a bit of hardness (not calling you soft - but lacking an enforcer or a couple of players with a physical presence) and especially LEADERSHIP. The leadership from senior players (or lack of it) has probably cost you 8 points over the last month.

As talented as a player Richo is he'd be one of the 1st I'd move off (get a trade happening before he gets too old). Those dummy spits and sooking are embarrassing to watch - even from an opposing supporter. And Campbell might get a few kicks without ever being damaging- but as a skipper he'd have to be one of the least insipring in the AFL. Reckon he must be on borrowed time. Can't fathom how a club could appoint a player who wanted to walk out for more moolah and they turn around and make him captain. That's just gotta send the wrong message to the younger blokes on the list.

Like I said at the start - you'll probably all tell me too **** off and go back to the Kangas board - but thought some may be interested in an 'outsiders' opinion.

 

[Rodan#18.]

okey

other than observing that there is an unusual amount of kangas activity round here...it has been dry....

otherwise...on campbo...i think you under rate him. No, make that ...'under-estimate'.

 

[kretchy]

Re: Re: Get rid of them

Originally posted by Rodan#18.
agree overall.
hyde and nicholls might also get looked at.

tivvers has been ok though...quite good actually.

I reckon Nicholls will at least get two years on the list but I'd say Hyde will definetly go.

On Campbell as skipper its only really Tiger supporters that rate him. Oppostion teams can continue to underestimate him at their on peril.

 

[CJH]

Originally posted by Itze


...

Your thoughts?

Bowden, Fiora, Hall and especially Tivendale are better players this year than they have ever been before. I would also suggest that there is more improvement in them yet. It would be foolish to just get rid of them (though if it helped make a Judd trade then it would be worth it!)

Cameron, Duncan and Rogers are all in the twilight. They should not be maligned for this.

Pettifer is the most frustrating. He does have all the ability but lacks any sort of confidence. How long do we persevere before we give up?

Houlihan is good enough for a place in our best 22 but needs to be more consistent. Again, that may be a problem. He is the kind of player who plays in starvation corner. He may not get a sniff of it for a whole game but also may kick 4 in a quarter.

It should be noted that Hilton also gets to play in starvation corner but has done nothing. He is someone who is also certainly on his last legs.

Agree that Vardy, Biddiscombe, Mills, Hyde and King are not up to it and will go.

 

[CJH]

Originally posted by Lidge
Hope you don't mind an outsider giving an 'unbiased' slant and observation. But you'll probably all reply to this post telling me to go and **** myself or something to that effect.

We never object to someone coming in and passing comment, especially when it is thoughtful.

I reckon Richmond have a fairly talented list, good coaching & footy dept, but where I reckon you fall down is a bit of hardness (not calling you soft - but lacking an enforcer or a couple of players with a physical presence) and especially LEADERSHIP. The leadership from senior players (or lack of it) has probably cost you 8 points over the last month.

Not surprising then that most of our 'leadership' players have been missing over the past month through injury.

As talented as a player Richo is he'd be one of the 1st I'd move off (get a trade happening before he gets too old). Those dummy spits and sooking are embarrassing to watch - even from an opposing supporter.

Richmond is a club of some of the cruellest ironies. We have the most unpredictable forward in the competition... who makes our forward line very predictable.

Referring to my previous point - with our leaders in, you can bet that the younger midfielders would have been told on the field to pick the best option.

And Campbell would probably be the only player with the rank to go up to Richo and tell him to stop being such a sook! (And also telling him to stop leading into the pockets!)

And Campbell might get a few kicks without ever being damaging- but as a skipper he'd have to be one of the least insipring in the AFL. Reckon he must be on borrowed time.

OK, spot the contradiction here! You say that we were missing leadership (true) but then pick one the main leader... who wasn't there!

Campbell has always been maligned through his career but know finds himself alongside Mark Coughlan (who seems to be universally acknowledged as a fine midfielder) and also Kane Johnson (who the Adelaide folk reckon was their best midfielder, even ahead of McLeod).

The comments being passed to us at the beginning of the year were that Campbell would now be shown up by his new teammates.

Oddly enough, in the games he has played Campbell out performed both of them. That he has missed the last 7 games is the only reason that the other 2 have passed him.

Can't fathom how a club could appoint a player who wanted to walk out for more moolah and they turn around and make him captain. That's just gotta send the wrong message to the younger blokes on the list.

Wrong reason. The reason Campbell wanted to leave was because of Geischen. He basically told the club "I am not working with this clown"

Like I said at the start - you'll probably all tell me too **** off and go back to the Kangas board - but thought some may be interested in an 'outsiders' opinion.

(Other ironies...

We also have a supporter group that has an extremely low tolerance of failure but have been the most unsuccessful club over the past decade.

The most successful club of the past decade achieved that success by copying and ruthless enforcing our gameplan - the one that took us to 6 Grand Finals and 4 premierships in 15 years.)

 

[Itze]

Re: Re: Get rid of them

Originally posted by CJH
Bowden, Fiora, Hall and especially Tivendale are better players this year than they have ever been before. I would also suggest that there is more improvement in them yet. It would be foolish to just get rid of them (though if it helped make a Judd trade then it would be worth it!)

Out of these four players, I would give Fiora, Hall, and Tivendale more time to display their talent. They have not been at the club as long and therefore should be given more opportunity. But Bowden, no chance in hell. How many years has he had to prove his worth? I'll tell you - too bloody many? He is not the type of footballer that we need to win premierships, therefore he is dispensable.

Cameron, Duncan and Rogers are all in the twilight. They should not be maligned for this.

I'm not maligning them, but they don't serve any purpose being in the team anymore. You are kidding yourself if you believe that we can win a premiership with these three players in the team.

Pettifer is the most frustrating. He does have all the ability but lacks any sort of confidence. How long do we persevere before we give up? Houlihan is good enough for a place in our best 22 but needs to be more consistent. Again, that may be a problem. He is the kind of player who plays in starvation corner. He may not get a sniff of it for a whole game but also may kick 4 in a quarter.

This kid has got talent, if he applies himself. He is a hell of a lot more hard at it than a bloke like Houlihan. If Houlihan is in our best 22, then I've been watching a different team play.

 

[CJH]

Re: Re: Re: Get rid of them

Originally posted by Itze


Out of these four players, I would give Fiora, Hall, and Tivendale more time to display their talent. They have not been at the club as long and therefore should be given more opportunity. But Bowden, no chance in hell. How many years has he had to prove his worth? I'll tell you - too bloody many? He is not the type of footballer that we need to win premierships, therefore he is dispensable.

I'm not maligning them, but they don't serve any purpose being in the team anymore. You are kidding yourself if you believe that we can win a premiership with these three players in the team.

This kid has got talent, if he applies himself. He is a hell of a lot more hard at it than a bloke like Houlihan. If Houlihan is in our best 22, then I've been watching a different team play.

Bowden is probably our 4th or 5th best midfielder. Not really good enough for someone with that sort of ability but nonetheless, still probably better than most other clubs #4 or #5 midfielder. The more crucial point is - he is finally starting to display some maturity as a footballer. We should be encouraging this for all it is worth!

I don't think that Cameron, Rogers and Dunc are going to lead us on to premiership glory. What I was intending is that we let them retire this year with dignity. Also, I wasn't picking directly at you for maligning them - read enough threads here and you will see that they really do cop it!

Houlihan is in our best 22 at the moment. Whether or not this is a good thing, I am not to sure about!

 

[Tiger_Of_Old]

Re: Re: Re: Get rid of them

Originally posted by Itze


But Bowden, no chance in hell. How many years has he had to prove his worth? I'll tell you - too bloody many? He is not the type of footballer that we need to win premierships, therefore he is dispensable.

[/B]

i like the way your thinking lad

cheers!

 

[Steve76]

bowden

If we can get our top midfield up and running incl blumfield, we may find that bowden will flourish - he won't get tagged and will be free to be damaging runnning forward - he will never be a great defender, he just doesn't have the mentality for it - but I would question whether many of the widely considered best midfielders are great defensiively - e.g Judd....

 

[TheFoxhat]

So if you get rid of Duncan ,Rogers , Cameron,King ,Bidders , at the end of the season then who would like to pick-up ,apart from Judd who will probably stay with Wet Toast....??????????

 

[kretchy]

Originally posted by TheFoxhat
So if you get rid of Duncan ,Rogers , Cameron,King ,Bidders , at the end of the season then who would like to pick-up ,apart from Judd who will probably stay with Wet Toast....??????????

It will probably be somewhat of a rebuilding process via the draft and picking up some good young talent. I heard somewhere that it is a reasonably strong draft this year.

 

[Steve76]

money

and importantly, we will be largely freed from the shackles of big money contracts for both current and ex players

Can anyone tell me the contract status of the Tiger list, esp whose contracts are expiring at end of 2003 ? and where we are at in terms of resigning those players ?

 

[mellowyellow]

contracts

Got this off PRE as to the current status of players.


Just posting this list from the old board here so we don't lose track of it.
Some of the contracts are guesswork, so if you know of any that need altering please let us know.

Contract ends:

2003:

Biddiscombe Duncan C.King Houlihan
Hilton Cameron Fiora
Zantuck Rodan Krakouer McGrath Chaffey

2004:

Campbell Ottens Holland Coughlan
Stafford Rogers Bowden Schulz
Fleming Nicholls Sipthorp

The following bunch were uncontracted at the end of 2002 so they must have signed new contracts (assumed 2 years in length) although the likes of Mills, Vardy, etc who might be on their last chance would be on one year.

Tivendale Dragga
Chaffey AK Hall
Hyde Newman
Mills Vardy Pettifer

2005:

Richo Johnson Blumfield

2006:

Gaspar

 

[Steve76]

2003

so from 2003


2003:

Biddiscombe Duncan C.King Houlihan
Hilton Cameron Fiora
Zantuck Rodan Krakouer McGrath Chaffey

bidders, c king, hilton may go

cameron, dunc retire

re sign fiora,zantuck, rodan, krak, chaff, mcgrath

houlihan ????

Only one of them who will get more $$$ upgrade would be chaff

So should have a bit of cash left over + campbell and richo?? on veterans list means we will have some freedom to do deals

 

[Steve76]

2004

geez 2004 sees some big names up for renewal.....will need to be prepared to trade unless they all fall away big time
2004:

Campbell Ottens Holland Coughlan
Stafford Rogers Bowden Schulz
Fleming Nicholls Sipthorp

 

[rosy3]

Re: contracts

Originally posted by mellowyellow
Got this off PRE as to the current status of players.

Just want to point out that that list is a compilation of input from several members of the PuntRoadEnd Message Board and is done more from memory than fact.
Some of the contracts may not that accurate.
Cheers,
rosy

 

[GhostofJimJess]

Re: 2003

Originally posted by Steve76
So should have a bit of cash left over + campbell and richo?? on veterans list means we will have some freedom to do deals

Unfortunately Richo will not be eligible for the vets list in 2004, despite having been on our list for the required 10 years. He will not be necessary 30 years of age and will therefore be subject to the 'James Hird Clause'.