News GFG on board as joint major sponsor

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VineValerian

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A Port Power sponsor, other one in partnership with a Port Power benefactor, third one employs a former Port Power executive and a well known Port Power supporter. Mention one, you gotta mention all three.
Maybe we can leverage that triumvirate for some financial gain, if we say we will put it to work re-instating our indigenous and NGA academy programs, and constructing the accommodation block for the indigenous students.

That way we can divert money that may have been earmarked for those projects to infrastructure redevelopment work at Alberton.
 

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TheBrownDog
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Twiggy is a massive advocate for Green Hydrogen and Green Steel.
Australia's high grade iron ore has probably 5-8 years. Post that our average grade will likely be under 60% which means we are shipping as much waste as ore.

Hydrogen won't travel economically as it requires -250 degrees.


So the logical thing is to make steel where the iron ore is, using locally made hydrogen. The question is, can we compete with China as they have low grade iron ore and an immediate market for their steel.

The answer to that is, what is price electricity production. Wind is $0.22 firmed and solar even higher. Meanwhile Canada is rolling out technologies at $0.08 and I understand China is $0.06. The target for both is $0.04.
 

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TheBrownDog
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Not really sure what kind of impact this would have on GFG and their sponsor with us but interesting read none the less in the BBC....

his business is under huge strain

the question is what assets are sold to right the ship or which assets go into liquidation

cash flow can be cruel sometimes
 

RussellEbertHandball

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his business is under huge strain

the question is what assets are sold to right the ship or which assets go into liquidation

cash flow can be cruel sometimes
His business structures are too opaque for capital markets, so he can't raise equity there. I was told his corporate bond / debt instruments are paying either double digit interest rates or close to it.

And looks like banker mate Les Greensill has pulled as many rabbits out of the hat as he can, for his non traditional bond issues.

He has to restructure. He won't flog off everything, but there will be plenty of assets sales.
 
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Janus

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Australia's high grade iron ore has probably 5-8 years. Post that our average grade will likely be under 60% which means we are shipping as much waste as ore.

Hydrogen won't travel economically as it requires -250 degrees.


So the logical thing is to make steel where the iron ore is, using locally made hydrogen. The question is, can we compete with China as they have low grade iron ore and an immediate market for their steel.

The answer to that is, what is price electricity production. Wind is $0.22 firmed and solar even higher. Meanwhile Canada is rolling out technologies at $0.08 and I understand China is $0.06. The target for both is $0.04.
I’ve done investment research on this.

China is looking towards the development of that large iron ore deposit in Guinea for their needs, that is half owned by Rio Tinto. They don’t produce enough iron ore domestically to come close to their own requirements, much less for export. Plus you have to consider the tariffs that a number of countries have now put on Chinese steel because of their dumping practice

GFG will be using natural gas for their steel production at the start and then transition to renewables if and when the cost efficiency makes it viable. They are doing the same thing in Germany in this project:

“German industrial engineering and steel production giant Thyssenkrupp will work with German energy company Steag are planning a 500MW hydrogen electrolysis plant intended to power steel production.”

All three of Rio Tinto, BHP and Fortescue Metals have partnerships with rolling steel mills that are investing heavily in green steel. For example, BHP has a deal with Japan’s JFE:

“Miner BHP said Feb. 10 it will invest as much as $15 million together with Japan's JFE Steel Corp. on lower-emissions steelmaking technology through the blast furnace process, which is used widely globally.”

The reason why GFG’s approach in South Australia is unique is because they are vertically integrating through investments into magnetite mining and direct-reduction concentrate, which produces 97% pure iron.

Green steel production is, IMO, the real reason why China has the shits with Australia. The last thing they want is for us to take over production of steel ourselves and start exporting it. It’s one of the main reasons why the Australian government won’t commit to zero emissions by 2050.
 

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TheBrownDog
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I’ve done investment research on this.

China is looking towards the development of that large iron ore deposit in Guinea for their needs, that is half owned by Rio Tinto. They don’t produce enough iron ore domestically to come close to their own requirements, much less for export. Plus you have to consider the tariffs that a number of countries have now put on Chinese steel because of their dumping practice

GFG will be using natural gas for their steel production at the start and then transition to renewables if and when the cost efficiency makes it viable. They are doing the same thing in Germany in this project:

“German industrial engineering and steel production giant Thyssenkrupp will work with German energy company Steag are planning a 500MW hydrogen electrolysis plant intended to power steel production.”

All three of Rio Tinto, BHP and Fortescue Metals have partnerships with rolling steel mills that are investing heavily in green steel. For example, BHP has a deal with Japan’s JFE:

“Miner BHP said Feb. 10 it will invest as much as $15 million together with Japan's JFE Steel Corp. on lower-emissions steelmaking technology through the blast furnace process, which is used widely globally.”

The reason why GFG’s approach in South Australia is unique is because they are vertically integrating through investments into magnetite mining and direct-reduction concentrate, which produces 97% pure iron.

Green steel production is, IMO, the real reason why China has the shits with Australia. The last thing they want is for us to take over production of steel ourselves and start exporting it. It’s one of the main reasons why the Australian government won’t commit to zero emissions by 2050.
you're right, the steel industry is set for a massive change with hydrogen but you have to ask yourself who will win.

will it be hydrogen production, being reduced to minus 273 degrees and or converted to ammonia, using 22-40 cent a kilowatt hour? or hydrogen production produced on site using 4 cents a kilowatt hour?

SA and the Pilbara will come to an end without cheap clean power. So I have no doubt SA will be nuclear sooner rather than later (refer USNC nuclear).


Guinea is high grade but the annual production rate is low and the ports limited by draft. That's expensive shipping but the counter to that is china will set up steel manufacturing in Africa to roll out local infrastructure. Note Africa has the same population as all of Asia by 2100 (India and China included)), so their infrastructure needs is huge.
 

jakey

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you're right, the steel industry is set for a massive change with hydrogen but you have to ask yourself who will win.

will it be hydrogen production, being reduced to minus 273 degrees and or converted to ammonia, using 22-40 cent a kilowatt hour? or hydrogen production produced on site using 4 cents a kilowatt hour?

SA and the Pilbara will come to an end without cheap clean power. So I have no doubt SA will be nuclear sooner rather than later (refer USNC nuclear).


Guinea is high grade but the annual production rate is low and the ports limited by draft. That's expensive shipping but the counter to that is china will set up steel manufacturing in Africa to roll out local infrastructure. Note Africa has the same population as all of Asia by 2100 (India and China included)), so their infrastructure needs is huge.
Nuclear is nowhere near cost competitive without heavy subsidy. Never will be.
 

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TheBrownDog
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Nuclear is nowhere near cost competitive without heavy subsidy. Never will be.
that's not quite correct based on new technology

current cheapest wind in Australia is $0.22 per kwh and modern, modular, demand responsive, fail-safe (can't go critical) is $0.08. By doubling capacity the anticipation is $0.04.

Australians are leaders in this and may tie in to a $1.7 trillion opportunity for South Australia.
 

Janus

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that's not quite correct based on new technology

current cheapest wind in Australia is $0.22 per kwh and modern, modular, demand responsive, fail-safe (can't go critical) is $0.08. By doubling capacity the anticipation is $0.04.

Australians are leaders in this and may tie in to a $1.7 trillion opportunity for South Australia.
A molten salt reactor would be perfect in South Australia. Zero chance of meltdown due to it already being molten, and it uses thorium instead of uranium.


Nuclear is nowhere near cost competitive without heavy subsidy. Never will be.
1614758119973.png
 

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jakey

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that's not quite correct based on new technology

current cheapest wind in Australia is $0.22 per kwh and modern, modular, demand responsive, fail-safe (can't go critical) is $0.08. By doubling capacity the anticipation is $0.04.

Australians are leaders in this and may tie in to a $1.7 trillion opportunity for South Australia.
By 'is' you mean hypothetically. Many have claimed, none have delivered anything like the mythical safer, cheaper, quicker modular small scale nuclear.
 

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TheBrownDog
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By 'is' you mean hypothetically. Many have claimed, none have delivered anything like the mythical safer, cheaper, quicker modular small scale nuclear.
is means "is". This is not theoretical but a known with USNC. The numbers for Rolls Royce are also known but higher. I can not confirm Russia's or China's claim.

The first USNC was built by Hyundai, in a Seattle Boeing Facility (completed ~2 years ago). With Ontario State power currently permitting the maiden commercial reactor, followed by 3 reactors in Idaho, 1 at Illinois University, 12 reactors under due diligence in Poland, 1 under DD for Estonia, 8 under DD for Namibia.

$60m-$75m capex depending on size (5MW or 10MW plus 3 times heat), $0.08 current opex and $0.04 based on modular expansion and $20m savings in capex (reduced fuel load cost - 20 years fuel load required upfront).
 

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TheBrownDog
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A molten salt reactor would be perfect in South Australia. Zero chance of meltdown due to it already being molten, and it uses thorium instead of uranium.




View attachment 1069239
modern nuclear reactors work on the same concept as thorium by being fast breeders. They also have molten salt which means they can store energy, including renewable energy. Essentially they are fission batteries.

They also use helium gas as the coolant. Thus as you open the reactor up with a can opener, the gas escapes and the chain reaction immediately ceases. Thus there is no need for a safe working zone.

The uplift as your graph highlights, supports why the economics are materially different.
 

Relativity

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you're right, the steel industry is set for a massive change with hydrogen but you have to ask yourself who will win.

will it be hydrogen production, being reduced to minus 273 degrees and or converted to ammonia, using 22-40 cent a kilowatt hour? or hydrogen production produced on site using 4 cents a kilowatt hour?

SA and the Pilbara will come to an end without cheap clean power. So I have no doubt SA will be nuclear sooner rather than later (refer USNC nuclear).


Guinea is high grade but the annual production rate is low and the ports limited by draft. That's expensive shipping but the counter to that is china will set up steel manufacturing in Africa to roll out local infrastructure. Note Africa has the same population as all of Asia by 2100 (India and China included)), so their infrastructure needs is huge.
Yeah that's not going to happen.
 

jakey

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is means "is". This is not theoretical but a known with USNC. The numbers for Rolls Royce are also known but higher. I can not confirm Russia's or China's claim.

The first USNC was built by Hyundai, in a Seattle Boeing Facility (completed ~2 years ago). With Ontario State power currently permitting the maiden commercial reactor, followed by 3 reactors in Idaho, 1 at Illinois University, 12 reactors under due diligence in Poland, 1 under DD for Estonia, 8 under DD for Namibia.

$60m-$75m capex depending on size (5MW or 10MW plus 3 times heat), $0.08 current opex and $0.04 based on modular expansion and $20m savings in capex (reduced fuel load cost - 20 years fuel load required upfront).
Yep, as you say, no one has built a commercial version. Projects have universally missed their original delivery time frames and costs by ridiculous margins.
 

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TheBrownDog
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Yeah that's not going to happen.
with disease, war and famine who knows


what is interesting is what happens to China's population in the late part of this century.
 

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with disease, war and famine who knows


what is interesting is what happens to China's population in the late part of this century.
3 out of 5 human beings already live in the "India/Southeastern Asia/China/Eastern Asia" region.

It wouldn't change much.
 

Us against the rest

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I’ve done investment research on this.

China is looking towards the development of that large iron ore deposit in Guinea for their needs, that is half owned by Rio Tinto. They don’t produce enough iron ore domestically to come close to their own requirements, much less for export. Plus you have to consider the tariffs that a number of countries have now put on Chinese steel because of their dumping practice

GFG will be using natural gas for their steel production at the start and then transition to renewables if and when the cost efficiency makes it viable. They are doing the same thing in Germany in this project:

“German industrial engineering and steel production giant Thyssenkrupp will work with German energy company Steag are planning a 500MW hydrogen electrolysis plant intended to power steel production.”

All three of Rio Tinto, BHP and Fortescue Metals have partnerships with rolling steel mills that are investing heavily in green steel. For example, BHP has a deal with Japan’s JFE:

“Miner BHP said Feb. 10 it will invest as much as $15 million together with Japan's JFE Steel Corp. on lower-emissions steelmaking technology through the blast furnace process, which is used widely globally.”

The reason why GFG’s approach in South Australia is unique is because they are vertically integrating through investments into magnetite mining and direct-reduction concentrate, which produces 97% pure iron.

Green steel production is, IMO, the real reason why China has the shits with Australia. The last thing they want is for us to take over production of steel ourselves and start exporting it. It’s one of the main reasons why the Australian government won’t commit to zero emissions by 2050.
The problem being is that China owns SA gas.
 

RussellEbertHandball

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The problem being is that China owns SA gas.
Chinese - Hong Kong individuals not China state, own it.

I looked up some stuff on Australian Gas Infrastructure Group around Christmas time and discovered 1) they own Australian Gas Networks ie the old SAGASCO and 2)

Australian Gas Infrastructure Group is owned by various consortia of private sector entities listed on the Hong Kong Stock Exchange. This includes CK Asset Holdings Ltd(CKA), CK Infrastructure Holdings Ltd(CKI), Power Assets Holdings Ltd(PAH) and CK Hutchison Holdings Ltd(CKH), all part of the CK Group – a leading global investor in energy and other infrastructure in the UK, Australia and other developed countries.
 

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Global financier Greensill Capital has moved closer to a collapse that could cost tens of thousands of jobs in businesses in Europe, the US and Australia, after a court released papers that cast doubt on its insurance of A$10bn (£5.55bn) of loans issued to its customers. The loans were underwritten by an insurance company, Tokio Marine, which was in a legal battle with Greensill, where former UK prime minister David Cameron is an adviser.

Greensill is on the verge of collapse after key backers, including Tokio Marine, Credit Suisse and the Swiss finance house GAM Holding, withdrew support amidst concerns about the management of the business, and the magnitude of loans Greensill issued to one key client, the steel magnate Sanjeev Gupta.

Greensill employs 1000 staff in London but is controlled through a holding company in Bundaberg, Australia.

Its collapse could put at risk the financing of Gupta’s international steel business, which employs 45,000 people around the world, including some 3000 in the UK and 7000 in Australia – most at the Whyalla steel mill.
 

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