Analysis Giants captaincy - where to from here?

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ClockworkOrange

Club Legend
Jan 30, 2016
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A narrow point on the topic of Captaincy.

If you’re on our player list you are of sufficient character and trust to represent this club.

And if you meet that criteria, there is no impediment to being a club Co-Captain irrespective of what our club’s VFL media critics claim.

So with Toby, either trade him out of the club or back him in 100 per cent for 2022 - our make or break year.

I agree with Leon’s comments this week that we should back him in for the year ahead like a son who has made a mistake.

I also respect the opinion of those who differ - so if we want him out let’s be done with it now.

The truth is Toby’s on-field abilities scare opposition clubs who we simply must beat to make Top 4.

17 other clubs would happily take Toby off our hands in half a second and then just laugh at our foolishness for letting him go.

The VFL media would then hail that club and print a dozen ‘Toby is a new man’ puff pieces.

I think we need to get much more ruthless about Top 4 for 2022.

Personally, I don’t believe we can do it without Toby in the leadership group at the very least.


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General Giant

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A narrow point on the topic of Captaincy.

If you’re on our player list you are of sufficient character and trust to represent this club.

And if you meet that criteria, there is no impediment to being a club Co-Captain irrespective of what our club’s VFL media critics claim.

So with Toby, either trade him out of the club or back him in 100 per cent for 2022 - our make or break year.

I agree with Leon’s comments this week that we should back him for the year ahead in like a son who has made a mistake.

I also respect the opinion of those who differ - so if we want him out let’s be done with it now.

The truth is Toby’s on-field abilities scare opposition clubs who we simply must beat to make Top 4.

17 other clubs would happily take him Toby our hands in half a second and then just laugh at our foolishness for letting him go.

The VFL media would then hail that club and print a dozen ‘Toby is a new man’ puff pieces.

I think we need to get much more ruthless about Top 4 for 2022.

Personally, I don’t believe we can do it without Toby in the leadership group at the very least.


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We can back him, support him, love him at the club but still think he isn’t right as Captain. It’s a bad look as well.
He can be an on field leader without the C next to his name.
 

ClockworkOrange

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We can back him, support him, love him at the club but still think he isn’t right as Captain. It’s a bad look as well.
He can be an on field leader without the C next to his name.
I agree.

What I disagree with is that he should be ‘blackballed’ from the Captaincy.

If we have a team vote for Co-Captains, he should be allowed to be a candidate IMO.

If the players want Toby as a co-Captain so be it.

If they don’t, so be it.

I just don’t want any more muddled management meddling in the Captaincy.



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ClockworkOrange

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Quick quiz.

Which of these players is a born Captain, lauded by the VFL Media, never subjected to MRO scrutiny, protected by the umpires and chaired off the ground?

We need to be very careful not to be gaslit by those in the game who do not want the Giants to succeed.

IMG_5591.JPG



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Wbby

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May 4, 2013
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Cogs is one of my favourite players because he seems to be one of the nicest blokes.

A shame to see him running around still hampered by injury. Watching him bust a gut but looking like he is running on the spot is hard to watch.

Hopefully an injury free pre season and he will be back to his best.
 

Hendo_21

Team Captain
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Cogs is one of my favourite players because he seems to be one of the nicest blokes.

A shame to see him running around still hampered by injury. Watching him bust a gut but looking like he is running on the spot is hard to watch.

Hopefully an injury free pre season and he will be back to his best.
His first 2 games of the season were quite good before getting injured in round 3, I really think if he can stay healthy we're going to see the old Cogs.
 

Andre the Giant

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I would give the Captaincy to Ward and groom Hopper and Taranto. Ward is a born leader and has the experience. Let’s not burden Cogs and Kelly with this, it’s not their bag.

Tom Green and Lachie Ash will be ready to go after that.
 

Hendo_21

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Having a player vote is the simplest solution, the captain is supposed to motivate and represent the playing group and they should get to pick who they think is best whether thats Cogs, Kelly, Ward, Toby or someone else. Co-captains has worked well in the past but if they think one person can handle the responsibility then go with that and give that person a vice-captain that they can turn to.
 

dlanod

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I would give the Captaincy to Ward and groom Hopper and Taranto. Ward is a born leader and has the experience. Let’s not burden Cogs and Kelly with this, it’s not their bag.

Tom Green and Lachie Ash will be ready to go after that.
I worry that Ward might not be a walk-up start by the end of next year. His style of play could lead him to falling off a cliff play-wise very quickly.
 

fridgeman

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I am not saying that peoples opinions are wrong or right just pointing out that all/the majority of comments are made with no knowledge of the inner workings of the club (Amazon docu edited for effect and angle IMO) and some will be influenced by the work of the media so take what you read with a grain of salt

My opinion is that 2022 is a make or break year for the coach (Needs more support which is unlikely with the climate of coaching cuts) and captain who needs a injury free run to get back to his best

Cornes is a campaigner just trying to increase his profile through his comments on the situation and he was like that as a player as well

As supporters of the club we do need to back in the players and staff
 

ClockworkOrange

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I would give the Captaincy to Ward and groom Hopper and Taranto. Ward is a born leader and has the experience. Let’s not burden Cogs and Kelly with this, it’s not their bag.

Tom Green and Lachie Ash will be ready to go after that.
Cal is the greatest player and Captain in the club’s history.

I have zero problem with him being on the captaincy ballot.

The only possible problem there is that I do wonder at what point in his career Cal - who’ll be 32 at the start of next season - goes from being an automatic starter to a specialist sub (Nathan Jones style).



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Maximus 2011

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Tom Green will be our skipper from 2024 going forward. Just need to find someone to fill the void for 2 years. I really like the idea of Perryman. Very honest footballer.
Also didn’t Whitfield look good when put on the ball late! No reason why he can’t play on ball like a Merrett or Parish for Essendon.


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ClockworkOrange

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I would give the Captaincy to Ward and groom Hopper and Taranto. Ward is a born leader and has the experience. Let’s not burden Cogs and Kelly with this, it’s not their bag.

Tom Green and Lachie Ash will be ready to go after that.
I agree with you re Hopper and TNT in the longer term.

If we take Hopper as a benchmark, he’s very likely to sign a two year extension.

So we’re probably two years away from minting a new ‘Giant for Life’ and potential Captain.

However, as we all agree, the next two years are the critical ones re a flag challenge.

By sheer coincidental timing, Nick Hayne’s doco film actually interviews both Phil and Cal about being made co-Captains at the birth of the club.

What’s fascinating about it is we know they were both excellent co-Captains, but both approached it from completely different perspectives.

I’m going to oversimplify and paraphrase here, but Phil was like ‘Yep, I’m a born leader, good to go’ whereas Cal was ‘I so much do not want to be Captain that I may reverse my decision to sign for the Giants’.

It just goes to show there’s more than one path to success.

Also, when Cal took the job it was not a reward but a responsibility that he rose too.


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Last edited:

augie

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Cal is the greatest player and Captain in the club’s history.

I have zero problem with him being on the captaincy ballot.

The only possible problem there is that I do wonder at what point in his career Cal - who’ll be 32 at the start of next season - goes from being an automatic starter to a specialist sub (Nathan Jones style).



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Based on the last few games of the H&A and the two finals I don't think there is any comparison with Jones. He's been a walk up start and should remain so.

I'd still make Toby captain. There is a bit of Ben Cousins about this. Spiritual leader with rough edges. Toby's rough edges are completely different to, and less disqualifying than, Cousins' were. He will continue to play on the edge but you can just about guarantee he won't have another umpire incident.
 

captainMyCaptain

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Some bits of an interview with Leon by Marc McGowan:


MM: How has Cogs handled, while being sidelined with injuries, all the commentary that Toby Greene is a better captain than him and should replace him?

LC: Toby and ‘Cogs’ are very close. They’re very good friends off the field, very good friends on the field and they’ve helped each other through this. The more leaders you have at your footy club; the better off you are. If Toby Greene’s become a better captain, along with Josh Kelly, because Stephen’s been out, then we’re better for the experience. Stephen, behind the scenes, has had to work through some tough situations for himself, but if that means he becomes a better captain and also a better player or person, then it’s only a good thing. We’re really proud of all three of them.

MM: What have you made of the Toby Greene furore in the past week and the incident itself?

LC: The disappointment is he’s put himself in a position that we all know is so awkward and he was always going to be judged really hard on this. He’s done the wrong thing and he needs to learn from this, but that doesn’t mean we give up on Toby Greene, just because he’s done the wrong thing. I’m his greatest backer. I back him in and so I should — I’m his coach. I look at it like when one of your children does the wrong thing and they’ve got to apologise. Toby’s apologised and he’s shattered. He knows he’s done the wrong thing. When you’ve got to apologise in life; it’s how you apologise, then what you do about it is what we’ve got to make sure we get right. We put our arms around him, we’ve got to educate him and we’ve got to work through some things to make sure this really hard situation Toby found himself in at the weekend never, ever happens again.
 

Maximus 2011

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I'd be fine with doing a vote but also hope Cogs gets the chance to be healthy and have a really strong season while being our leader.
I seriously hope Cogs gets back to full fitness but where do you see him playing? In the midfield he has to work past Ward, Kelly, O’Halloren, Hopper, Taranto, Green, Bruhn, Ash (i think they might push him up around the ball more next year for extra speed).
As a small forward he will have to fight with Daniels, Hill, Stone, Lloyd, DeBoer (defensive forward).
I just can’t see where he fits without stunting the growth of our youth getting games amd if that happens too much we will no doubt lose more young players for a can of Pepsi and a bag of lollies.

I seriously love Cogs but he is absolutely devoid of confidence & clearly hampered by injuries. Dare I say it if a rival West Australian club comes to us and offers us a second round pick and then to pick up his salary we should jump on it like seagulls at hot chips.
Also with the current lockdown and restrictions being able to get back to WA I am sure he finds it very hard not to see his family in the West.

We need to look within for our new captain. My vote Ward & Perryman for the time being



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Land of the Giants

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I seriously hope Cogs gets back to full fitness but where do you see him playing? I just can’t see where he fits without stunting the growth of our youth getting games and if that happens too much we will no doubt lose more young players for a can of Pepsi and a bag of lollies.

Dare I say it if a rival West Australian club comes to us and offers us a second round pick and then to pick up his salary we should jump on it like seagulls at hot chips. Also with the current lockdown and restrictions being able to get back to WA I am sure he finds it very hard not to see his family in the West.

We need to look within for our new captain.
It's hard to escape the logic of what you're saying.
 

Hendo_21

Team Captain
Aug 14, 2021
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I seriously hope Cogs gets back to full fitness but where do you see him playing? In the midfield he has to work past Ward, Kelly, O’Halloren, Hopper, Taranto, Green, Bruhn, Ash (i think they might push him up around the ball more next year for extra speed).
As a small forward he will have to fight with Daniels, Hill, Stone, Lloyd, DeBoer (defensive forward).
I just can’t see where he fits without stunting the growth of our youth getting games amd if that happens too much we will no doubt lose more young players for a can of Pepsi and a bag of lollies.

I seriously love Cogs but he is absolutely devoid of confidence & clearly hampered by injuries. Dare I say it if a rival West Australian club comes to us and offers us a second round pick and then to pick up his salary we should jump on it like seagulls at hot chips.
Also with the current lockdown and restrictions being able to get back to WA I am sure he finds it very hard not to see his family in the West.

We need to look within for our new captain. My vote Ward & Perryman for the time being



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Think we're forgetting how good Cogs is in when healthy, there probably isn't 10 midfielders in the entire competition that I'd take over Cogs when he's firing and I really believe were going to see that next year if he can get a clean run at it, he was looking really strong before getting injured in round 3 this year. In round 1 he had the third most rating points in the entire game, so that gun player is clearly still there. XOH and Ash aren't primarily inside midfielders where Cogs plays his best so they're not really competing with him, Hopper, Kelly, Ward are all likely locked into major consistent midfield roles next year. If Cogs is ready to go he's probably better then all of them except Kelly that's not talking down to the others but that's just how good Cogs is. Don't think they'll throw Bruhn into a full time mid role next year I think he'll continue to be played as more of a half-forward, I don't think it's far fetched to think we see Taranto spend more time forward next year especially if Cogs is good to go as he is able to replace Taranto's production as a midfielder. If Cogs is healthy and ready to go next year and he still looks like a shell of himself then it might be best to see what we can do in terms of finding another team for him (which would be difficult considering that would mean he's not good and being paid a lot of money). Maybe that's too optimistic of a view of things and I'm looking at his situation through orange tinted glasses but I think he's gonna have a major bounce back year.
 

Maximus 2011

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Think we're forgetting how good Cogs is in when healthy, there probably isn't 10 midfielders in the entire competition that I'd take over Cogs when he's firing and I really believe were going to see that next year if he can get a clean run at it, he was looking really strong before getting injured in round 3 this year. In round 1 he had the third most rating points in the entire game, so that gun player is clearly still there. XOH and Ash aren't primarily inside midfielders where Cogs plays his best so they're not really competing with him, Hopper, Kelly, Ward are all likely locked into major consistent midfield roles next year. If Cogs is ready to go he's probably better then all of them except Kelly that's not talking down to the others but that's just how good Cogs is. Don't think they'll throw Bruhn into a full time mid role next year I think he'll continue to be played as more of a half-forward, I don't think it's far fetched to think we see Taranto spend more time forward next year especially if Cogs is good to go as he is able to replace Taranto's production as a midfielder. If Cogs is healthy and ready to go next year and he still looks like a shell of himself then it might be best to see what we can do in terms of finding another team for him (which would be difficult considering that would mean he's not good and being paid a lot of money). Maybe that's too optimistic of a view of things and I'm looking at his situation through orange tinted glasses but I think he's gonna have a major bounce back year.
I hope you are right with all those if’s but I am a realist. Cogs hasn’t played an A grade AFL game since 7 July 2019 when he had 34 touches against the Lions. That is a fact. Round 1 he had 24 touches and 7 direct turnovers. Wouldn’t count that as a great game for an inside midfielder.
You forgot 1 other inside mid that we need to play every game next year and that is Tom Green who I regard as probably a foundational player and someone we can build a team around for years to come.

Like I stated I really like Cogs as a person and even as a people manager but he needs to find a place in the team now with the youth undoubtedly the reason why we made a finals push this year. The selection and list managers have huge decisions to make. I hope he does rediscover his best and break back into the team but I just can’t see how without a lot of injuries. Hopefully I am writing about this again this time next year saying how wrong I was with Cogs leading us into our clubs second grand final after a best and fairest winning year.


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