Analysis Giants Coaching. Your thoughts.

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Dangerousfield

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Oct 11, 2012
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Reckon you'll regret signing Cameron for another two years, you've had by far the best list ever assembled with nothing but an embarrasing GF to show for it and looking a sh it show this year.

What could Clarko do with your list? That's the question I'd be asking
 

Orange Agent

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Head coaches are people managers nowadays, they front the media, they look like they are they are in control, but it's really the assistants that are the brains trust. Chris Fagan is not running a one horse show. For years the media cried out get some proven assistants in, they finally did that with Nicks, then he was never replaced.
 

dlanod

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Head coaches are people managers nowadays, they front the media, they look like they are they are in control, but it's really the assistants that are the brains trust. Chris Fagan is not running a one horse show. For years the media cried out get some proven assistants in, they finally did that with Nicks, then he was never replaced.
We had this same problem (a couple of games where we looked like the cream of the comp, a couple of games where we looked like we should be relegated) last year, when Nicks was here... Both Hawthorn games last year were arguably worse than last night - we had a few chances yesterday early and didn't take them, but against Hawthorn the whole was an exercise in futility, and I'm sure we can all remember the GF.
 

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LordLucifer

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If the paperwork hasn't been signed, then maybe the key GWS administrators should hold off for a little bit and totally re-assess the coaching situation.

I'm deeply concerned about Leon Cameron and whether he has the coaching nous & ability to take the Giants to a flag. Sure he got them to the GF last year but wow, wasn't that a debacle of the highest order. Getting to the prelims were good achievements too but they weren't good performances either.

Finlayson was a defender originally but somehow found himself up the other end of the ground. He's kicked a few bags but watching him closely last night, he epitomises the issues the club faces right now. Only wants to do the minimum when the ball is in his immediate area or demands the ball to be delivered silver service. Lacks urgency & desperation plus will not chase or put enough pressure on the opposition player.

The thing is, Cameron seems to be tolerating this behaviour and the apathy looks to have spread to some of the others in group. There is a nucleus of players who would give up a body part to win a match but they can't carry the whole outfit onfield.

Recruiting Jacobs looked like a smart move on the surface but he has really struggled to be effective and Mumford is terrific but is not on the park enough. The club needs to fix this problem and quickly.

There are a number of problems at the Giants right now but they can be repaired if the right moves are made and those in charge have the balls to pull the levers, thing is, there is no room for error here either.
 

Andre the Giant

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If the paperwork hasn't been signed, then maybe the key GWS administrators should hold off for a little bit and totally re-assess the coaching situation.

I'm deeply concerned about Leon Cameron and whether he has the coaching nous & ability to take the Giants to a flag. Sure he got them to the GF last year but wow, wasn't that a debacle of the highest order. Getting to the prelims were good achievements too but they weren't good performances either.

Finlayson was a defender originally but somehow found himself up the other end of the ground. He's kicked a few bags but watching him closely last night, he epitomises the issues the club faces right now. Only wants to do the minimum when the ball is in his immediate area or demands the ball to be delivered silver service. Lacks urgency & desperation plus will not chase or put enough pressure on the opposition player.

The thing is, Cameron seems to be tolerating this behaviour and the apathy looks to have spread to some of the others in group. There is a nucleus of players who would give up a body part to win a match but they can't carry the whole outfit onfield.

Recruiting Jacobs looked like a smart move on the surface but he has really struggled to be effective and Mumford is terrific but is not on the park enough. The club needs to fix this problem and quickly.

There are a number of problems at the Giants right now but they can be repaired if the right moves are made and those in charge have the balls to pull the levers, thing is, there is no room for error here either.
I could not like this post more, it’s bang on the money and if people think otherwise they are living in a fantasy world.
 

gee whiz giant

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1. Got ahead of themselves. Already looking at the West Coast game before playing the Swans.
2. Got ahead of themselves. Think they're due Finals and will do bare minimum to get there.
3. Got ahead of themselves. Thought they could pull it out of their asses at the last moment 2 weeks in a row.
 

Pres

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The Giants at the moment remind me a lot of North in 1993 when Pagan took over.

At the time there were a lot of very talented younger players that were barely showing glimpses and largely going through the motions within a dysfunctional football system.

Pagan came in and brought in a clear system and established non-negotiable team rules that had to be followed or you were out. Suddenly everyone was on the same page, the messaging seemed simpler and the results were borne out almost overnight.

I think Deledio's comments were really revealing a week or two back. He alluded to an absence of a clear system of playing. Moreso that players were given the freedom and licence to play the game as they saw fit through their own eyes on the day in question. Points to all players not seemingly being on the same page.

Deeply worrying.
 

LordLucifer

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At the time there were a lot of very talented younger players that were barely showing glimpses and largely going through the motions within a dysfunctional football system.

Pagan came in and brought in a clear system and established non-negotiable team rules that had to be followed or you were out. Suddenly everyone was on the same page, the messaging seemed simpler and the results were borne out almost overnight.
Whilst Pagan was a disaster when he came to my mob, his work at North was first-class because he demanded "buy-in" from the players plus they had to earn senior selection, not be gifted games. He was a tyrant of sorts but his rules applied equally to each and every player, there was no preferential treatment.

When you have all of the players busting their arses in unison and to an easy to follow prescribed plan, anything can be achieved.

I think Deledio's comments were really revealing a week or two back. He alluded to an absence of a clear system of playing. Moreso that players were given the freedom and licence to play the game as they saw fit through their own eyes on the day in question. Points to all players not seemingly being on the same page.
Alarm bells should have been ringing loud & clear when Deledio spoke like that.

The players cannot set the tone of what to do, otherwise, whats the point of having a coach ?? The other thing is, 'too many cooks spoil the broth' too which is what appears to be happening right now too.


Some very good points raised there Pres .
 

Andre the Giant

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Is part of the issue that he can’t get the players to buy into a system because their egos are too big?

If you look at most of the other clubs they have a smattering of high picks and then a bunch of workers around them.

We’ve seen with our guys they have often played with a selfish mentality which has been their undoing. Perhaps they are too unwilling to play the team game and do the non flashy 2nd efforts?

I think we have some guys that show the right qualities, the Perryman’s the Haynes, the Daniels.

Brent Daniels to me is the ultimate team player, people have mentioned his lack of goals but he chases everything like a drover’s dog and sets a standard.

If all the boys played with his consistency and effort we would be a far better team.
 

Gigantic

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Is part of the issue that he can’t get the players to buy into a system because their egos are too big?

If you look at most of the other clubs they have a smattering of high picks and then a bunch of workers around them.

We’ve seen with our guys they have often played with a selfish mentality which has been their undoing. Perhaps they are too unwilling to play the team game and do the non flashy 2nd efforts?

I think we have some guys that show the right qualities, the Perryman’s the Haynes, the Daniels.

Brent Daniels to me is the ultimate team player, people have mentioned his lack of goals but he chases everything like a drover’s dog and sets a standard.

If all the boys played with his consistency and effort we would be a far better team.
The other match when Cogs sprinted for the ball that went out of the full on the left-side of the goal posts epitomised the selfish mentality. He's not a left footer and should have left it so a closer player with a better left foot (e.g. Jezza) could get closer to claim the kick. Split second lapses in judgment like that definitely do not help.
 

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JoondalupJ

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I have to admit that I find this aspect the most difficult to judge. It's always easy to blame players' form, injuries and umpires for losses, but coaching strategies & gameplans become a complex series of questions. How experienced are the group? What strategies are they capable of executing? Is the gameplan too simple? Is it too complex? Do players revert to certain preferred plays when under pressure? Is there a Plan B, and can the players revert to it easily? etc

GWS bolted into the top 8 for the first time last year and made it (somewhat fortuitously IMHO) into top 4. Was that good coaching, or a bit of luck that our gamestyle worked against other teams? Conversely, it hasn't worked as well for us this year, so it that the other coaches working our gameplan out and counteracting, without Leon & the coaches being able to call upon Plan B. The recurring issues inside F50 and coming out of defensive kick-ins do concern me, and that they seem have a causal factor in coaching - the bombing into F50 without working out a better way. Sometimes it works when the General is leading and clunking well, or Rory is standing tall. However, too many times we don't take the grab and it rebounds too easily. However, some have called for only 2 talls in the forward line to help the defensive pressure, but that didn't help us with the Swans last night. That can (and does IMHO) to the players selected. However, it is too easy to say that we need a 'player X' - the problem is judging from the draft who will become that 'player X' in future. As well, while we haven't played great this year, apart from the blowout in round 1, we've been near enough in all our games and won enough to be top 3 still (now) & top of the ladder a couple of times thus far. So I don't think that the coaching is that far off. I don't know how many changes of plan/style that Leon has in him though.

Team selections are always topical. I supported keeping Stevie J for the extra year, and with the series of injuries it's a bit hard to say it has been a major fu** up to play him. Similarly, Reid & Lloyd have gotten games because of injuries & the inherent list composition to work within TPP. Yes, as players come back it becomes a pertinent question as to what is the optimum side. Bottom line is that winners are grinners and the team selections become 'great choices'. When you don't win, the questions come. Let's say that I think we could have given Setterfield a go this week, but understand going for experience instead, so I'm not at a point of rebelling against the selection committee yet.

I think that the coaches are still developing and there's definitely room for improvement. Tactical gameplan (including Plans B & C) is probably the focus there, and then working with the players to ensure they can switch as required.
I think injuries do play a massive part, and when you have to group together and train enough players to follow and learn the plan to the ENth degree, it is very hard

My club took years and their depth ran very very deep, it takes years and sometimes it is a once in a lifetime , to develo[p up toward 40 blokes that can cover positions equally as the injured, fiirst pick player.
Hawthorn did it, but hell that showing by my club now, tells me I was right about, once in a life time.
Leon Cameron has put you into a Grand Final, and previous final series, so you are getting close, when you can cover injuries, with really good relief players, from the 2nds, and you are in that range of the playing group being 60 to 80 game players with some experienced long-termers, like Heath Shaw , one of the best defenders ever , I reckon your Close , but this season just does not sit comfortable.

Also in this day and age injuries are woeful for clubs. And so many, game too fast.
So your squad of 40 plus have to come up to scratch nearly all at the same time. Thats the key.

Leon will be fine, he's a good coach, it's the personel these days that make and break teams, got to be able to fill up with blokes that have it in them.
I think you Giants (much to my annoyance) ha ha ha, are pretty close to a real premiership, next year or the one after, this 2020 and corona has really taken something out of the sport.
 

Andre the Giant

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Excellent analysis on Geelong on First Crack and evidence of their clear system.

We have a better forward who is constantly cramped for space and fed sh*t ball.

If we stick with the current coaches we deserve the mediocrity and failure that will surely follow.

Get a proper coach and develop a system, if blokes don’t buy in f*** them off.

Current bloke is Mr Magoo driving the Ferrari.
 

Danny88

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I think Leon and the playing staff as well as the leaders themselves all deserve to cop their fair wack after that. But I have a wondering:

Something that tends to come up in a lot of commentary and certainly gets thrown around a lot is the lack of a “playing style”. I wonder.... what is geelong’s playing style? What about the pies? Of course there are the more obvious styles like the swans flood or the tigers territory game.... but do we know enough about footy to recognize the “game plan” that gets thrown around?
 

dlanod

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I think Leon and the playing staff as well as the leaders themselves all deserve to cop their fair wack after that. But I have a wondering:

Something that tends to come up in a lot of commentary and certainly gets thrown around a lot is the lack of a “playing style”. I wonder.... what is geelong’s playing style? What about the pies? Of course there are the more obvious styles like the swans flood or the tigers territory game.... but do we know enough about footy to recognize the “game plan” that gets thrown around?
I think the idea of an identifiable "game plan" is overwrought and a bit of rubbish, especially in some of the discussions where they talk as if there's an expectation of one true good game plan. You can usually identify preferences (like our's for slow ball movement, mark and kick, and then a long ball down the line offensively, and a zone defense that is pretty easy to work through after which we rely on one on one defensive matchups plus Haynes) but any good team will change elements from week to week anyway.

There are some general principles that all the good teams do though - pressure the ball carrier (and usually their first receiver these days), win the ball back, and retain possession once they have it. We do the second well. We sometimes do the first, e.g. the first three finals last year, the Geelong game, the Richmond game, and given we turn it on and off I hesitate to point to the coaches on that one. That's more on the players, though one identifiable issue is that other teams will keep a player out of the contest to pressure the receiver whereas all our's tend to crack in, and if we don't win the ball we're exposed on the counterattack because we're down players.

However we rarely do the last - given our offensive preferences, it is hard to retain possession barring kicks sideways or backwards, which we try. We are not able to manufacture space for our stars to play one on one, instead usually requiring them to win a two or three on one. The easiest ways to do that in our structures is to take a man out of the zone by having a runner with the ball draw him and then offload up the middle, or get an overlap on a wing to run and carry and launch it past the zone. This is also when we look most dangerous, though against Sydney there was almost an attitude of "better you than me" when giving the handball to the runner because time and again it was done with the runner already under visible pressure.
 

Pres

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You can usually identify preferences (like our's for slow ball movement, mark and kick, and then a long ball down the line offensively, and a zone defense that is pretty easy to work through after which we rely on one on one defensive matchups plus Haynes)
Sounds like a pretty sexy system.

Any other top clubs this year adopting this approach?
 

Danny88

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I think the idea of an identifiable "game plan" is overwrought and a bit of rubbish, especially in some of the discussions where they talk as if there's an expectation of one true good game plan. You can usually identify preferences (like our's for slow ball movement, mark and kick, and then a long ball down the line offensively, and a zone defense that is pretty easy to work through after which we rely on one on one defensive matchups plus Haynes) but any good team will change elements from week to week anyway.

There are some general principles that all the good teams do though - pressure the ball carrier (and usually their first receiver these days), win the ball back, and retain possession once they have it. We do the second well. We sometimes do the first, e.g. the first three finals last year, the Geelong game, the Richmond game, and given we turn it on and off I hesitate to point to the coaches on that one. That's more on the players, though one identifiable issue is that other teams will keep a player out of the contest to pressure the receiver whereas all our's tend to crack in, and if we don't win the ball we're exposed on the counterattack because we're down players.

However we rarely do the last - given our offensive preferences, it is hard to retain possession barring kicks sideways or backwards, which we try. We are not able to manufacture space for our stars to play one on one, instead usually requiring them to win a two or three on one. The easiest ways to do that in our structures is to take a man out of the zone by having a runner with the ball draw him and then offload up the middle, or get an overlap on a wing to run and carry and launch it past the zone. This is also when we look most dangerous, though against Sydney there was almost an attitude of "better you than me" when giving the handball to the runner because time and again it was done with the runner already under visible pressure.
I agree with a lot of what you are saying here. And I think this is a much better style of discussion than the others. Although I would tend to disagree on how we try to go about things offensively. We have a clear emphasis on contested ball and clearances. It’s why we are happy to go long down the line out of defense as we back ourselves to either get a stoppage or win the contested footy. A large factor for us this year has been we are losing the midfield battle... so we are hurt more by the slow ball movement when we lose those things.

It is not a simple thing. I remember in 2016 when all the talk was the orange tsunami can’t win a flag and we need to learn to grind more and absorb pressure if we are going to survive repeated finals. Certainly an interesting turnaround
 

dlanod

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I remember in 2016 when all the talk was the orange tsunami can’t win a flag and we need to learn to grind more and absorb pressure if we are going to survive repeated finals. Certainly an interesting turnaround
The talk in 2016 was right though - clubs adapted to pressure the first receiver the following year, causing a turn over in which all our midfield was streaming ahead of a play and therefore we were outnumbered heading back the other way, so we shelved the play. In the finals in 2019 we went full pressure and ground more and saw the success from it.
 

gee whiz giant

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The other match when Cogs sprinted for the ball that went out of the full on the left-side of the goal posts epitomised the selfish mentality. He's not a left footer and should have left it so a closer player with a better left foot (e.g. Jezza) could get closer to claim the kick. Split second lapses in judgment like that definitely do not help.
In defence of Cogs on that one, I saw it as a new Captain trying to shoulder the responsibility of the kick. Captaincy has been a greater learning curve for Cogs than I think most imagined. In time, he'll learn to delegate.
 

Giant Pete

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One thing that is clear is that teams move the ball from their d50 against us way too easily (can someone find a stat for it?). Who ever our coach is around that stuff needs to be moved on. If we only tightened that aspect of our game up it would make a big difference.
 

Andre the Giant

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This list has under-achieved, we can dance around things, try to make excuses for Leon, try to prognosticate as to why but the bottom line is it should have been a Premiership list and isn’t.

If Leon fails to make finals this year he should be sacked, it’s as simple as that. He’s had 7 years to get us there and he has failed, even the year we made the grand final we were disappointing for much of the year.

Re-signing him in the face of this failure is actually a selfish and pride filled decision and one that is not in the best interests of supporters.

If he is re-signed we can put a line through 2021 and 22’ and officially say our window is shut. We can also be guaranteed a couple of high level stars will pack up and leave.

Hope is a big thing for fans, if the current coaching group is retained I have very little hope for us, he’s just not the man.
 
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