Analysis Giants Coaching. Your thoughts.

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Orange Agent

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Since games have had no crowds he has coached 100% from the bench and our results have turned around. It's interesting what Buchanan is doing given how good the backline has been recently. Maybe it coincidence or maybe others in the box have had a bigger say. But coaching well and winning every week don't go hand in hand, sometimes players don't follow instructions.
 

ClockworkOrange

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I don’t have a problem with Leon.

I also don’t believe that there are any gettable coaches out there that would be a vast improvement over him.

and your point 2 was about a CEO “delivering 11 home games at MO & GS“ so I have no idea why you say it hasn’t held the swans back - they didn’t get 11 home games at the SCG this year either, so I assume you want their CEO dumped as well.
So you would extend Leon for another two years today - ok, fair enough, good to know.

Re the CEO role, I believe the Swans have always been stronger in this department than the Giants over the entire decade.

To the best of my knowledge the Giants CEO contract expires in a few months, and in the past it has been extended 6 months before expiry.

So what’s about to happen? No sure. It will be an interesting one as the Chair has - in contrast to prior years - been largely silent all year.

The Giants management role that has impressed me most this year, as I’ve commented on other threads, is Jason McCartney as Director of Football.

McCartney has been very good IMO, as he was in his prior scouting role for the club.

If you believe what Caro has said about JMc in the past, he is a neutral figure in the club neither politically aligned to the CEO or HC.

That’s a good thing IMO, and may well have been important in his success to date.




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ClockworkOrange

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Once again, I find myself in close alignment with dlanod's thoughts.
I tend to agree too.

I think what’s almost certain though is that Leon has failed the KPI’s in his current contract to date re ladder position finishes for 2020 and 2021.

IMO the best thing the Chair could do today is speak 1-on-1 to Leon and say the club is open to - as opposed to will - extending you beyond 2022.

However, you need to really deliver (Top 4 or 6?) in the 2022 regular season - or something VERY special in the 2021 Finals.



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Hendo_21

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In regards to last nights game against the Blues I thought Leon's use of Taranto was perfect and would love to see him in that exact role moving forward, still gave TT plenty of centre bounces to get involved in the midfield in which he was fantastic yet also spent time forward and looked really dangerous unfortunate to miss them all but I expect that to even out. Overall I think Leon is in the same tier as a lot of other coaches he's not as great as Clarko, Dimma, Scott and Longmire but definitely better then the worst coaches, I think he's fine and we can win with him. Unless one of those top coaches pop up on the open market (maybe clarko now) I probably wouldn't look to move on from him.
 

General Giant

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Really? A close and unlucky loss in the wet round 1 .... I’ve played enough sport to know that the next week can be flat and had no doubt we’d get better

this is also why I stay clear of here after a loss .... way too much overreaction
We weren’t great against the Saints, deplorable against Freo and had zero luck (but performed much much better) against Melbourne.
After last seasons efforts it’s not unsurprising that some fans went to town.
 

Pres

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Really? A close and unlucky loss in the wet round 1 .... I’ve played enough sport to know that the next week can be flat and had no doubt we’d get better

this is also why I stay clear of here after a loss .... way too much overreaction
Could not agree more.
 

dlanod

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Really? A close and unlucky loss in the wet round 1 .... I’ve played enough sport to know that the next week can be flat and had no doubt we’d get better

this is also why I stay clear of here after a loss .... way too much overreaction
Must have missed our efforts in the previous year as well... It wasn't one week.
 

Orange crush

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Must have missed our efforts in the previous year as well... It wasn't one week.
I saw how well we played against geelong in the opener and then after the long break we came back crap .... there is no sugar-coating that. The guys struggled like a badly struggling thing elected professor of struggling at oxford university.... but the two need to Be viewed separately
 

dlanod

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I saw how well we played against geelong in the opener and then after the long break we came back crap .... there is no sugar-coating that. The guys struggled like a badly struggling thing elected professor of struggling at oxford university.... but the two need to Be viewed separately
I don't understand why the two need to be viewed separately.

We were/are discussing Leon as a coach. He has plenty of years of experience now (part of why I find "he needs an experienced assistant" pretty damning on its own too), and we can and should judge him on the entirety of that - both good (repeated finals visits, the GF appearance against the odds, the turnaround of this year) and bad (poor results against bad teams which cost us come the end of the year, some absolute capitulations, evident limitations in selection policy and planning). Claiming each season or round needs to be taken on its own merits increases the chance of overreaction.
 

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Orange crush

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A crap response to an amazing situation that the players obviously didn’t handle well .... COVID last year .... and a crap game the following season are two very separate events. Doom and gloom that the second spells a continuation of the first doesn’t make sense .... to me.

Teams can have crap games or even a run of lackluster performances .... that doesn’t mean the team is falling apart .... but falling apart was what happened to a degree during the 2020 season, and the journos in the clip I posted were trying to conflate 2020 with a crap game in 2021
 

Danny88

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I tend to agree too.

I think what’s almost certain though is that Leon has failed the KPI’s in his current contract to date re ladder position finishes for 2020 and 2021.

IMO the best thing the Chair could do today is speak 1-on-1 to Leon and say the club is open to - as opposed to will - extending you beyond 2022.

However, you need to really deliver (Top 4 or 6?) in the 2022 regular season - or something VERY special in the 2021 Finals.



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Do you really think a team that loses Cameron Williams corr and some talented kids expected to take the next step in 2021 was expected to finish higher than 7th?

I think most of us started this year hoping for finals again. We have that. Its more than a pass mark IMO as it is largely the next gen of talent which has shown the most improvement in 2021 to lift us there.
 

General Giant

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Do you really think a team that loses Cameron Williams corr and some talented kids expected to take the next step in 2021 was expected to finish higher than 7th?

I think most of us started this year hoping for finals again. We have that. Its more than a pass mark IMO as it is largely the next gen of talent which has shown the most improvement in 2021 to lift us there.
The thought was we would finishing in the 8th to 12th, more likely 12th, spots.
 

Danny88

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A crap response to an amazing situation that the players obviously didn’t handle well .... COVID last year .... and a crap game the following season are two very separate events. Doom and gloom that the second spells a continuation of the first doesn’t make sense .... to me.

Teams can have crap games or even a run of lackluster performances .... that doesn’t mean the team is falling apart .... but falling apart was what happened to a degree during the 2020 season, and the journos in the clip I posted were trying to conflate 2020 with a crap game in 2021
Well their job is the generate conversation about the game. It certainly had this board talking about it so it worked.
 

Danny88

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I think most people get frustrated when we lose games we should win. I also think that comes with a mature list. Port for example are mature and always beat the teams they should. Yes they have youth in the team but not as much as us and their older players also have more games played on average.

It is why young players have inconsitant games and older players have less fade outs. There is something to be said for the reliability of players in that 25-29 year old age bracket.

In our case... our prime movers such as TT, Hopper aren't in that bracket yet and because our style of game play relies on contested ball winning.... without that consistency we will have drop offs.

I still think we need to add pace and outside run and class to the list... but I'm not convinced this is a Leon problem as much as it is a maturity (im talking football maturity) issue.

Now with that said, I think we need to highlight the strength of 2021 which has been the growth and development of the youth. Idun, Cumming, Bruhn, X, Buckley have alll come on in leaps and bounds this year. Credit where it is due... this year has set us up nicely to launch for the next two while our top players are sill there and in their peak
 

dlanod

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I think most people get frustrated when we lose games we should win. I also think that comes with a mature list. Port for example are mature and always beat the teams they should. Yes they have youth in the team but not as much as us and their older players also have more games played on average.

It is why young players have inconsitant games and older players have less fade outs. There is something to be said for the reliability of players in that 25-29 year old age bracket.

In our case... our prime movers such as TT, Hopper aren't in that bracket yet and because our style of game play relies on contested ball winning.... without that consistency we will have drop offs.
My big issue with this is that it's an issue that has been consistent even when he had more mature players at his disposal. For instance even in 2019 we lost four games to younger teams (by average age) and another two where the teams were practically identical, within a month of each other. In 2016 half our regular season losses came against younger teams. Younger teams are more inconsistent, but we're inconsistent even when we're relatively not a young team.
 

Danny88

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My big issue with this is that it's an issue that has been consistent even when he had more mature players at his disposal. For instance even in 2019 we lost four games to younger teams (by average age) and another two where the teams were practically identical, within a month of each other. In 2016 half our regular season losses came against younger teams. Younger teams are more inconsistent, but we're inconsistent even when we're relatively not a young team.
You could chalk those earlier losses up to Leon himself lacking that maturity. Maybe of late he has found it. He has now made finals in 5/6 years and is one of the more experienced coaches in the league.

In the interview above Whitfiield mentions their recent success to the team genuinely buying into the system. Perhaps that is the next iteration of the team... more clear roles and system. Certainly this year those younger players have had to play through necessity and have slotted in seemingly easy and this could be an indication of that

i still think its a maturity thing. I also think its never something that can be conquered. Geelong lost to our VFL team for instance.
 

ClockworkOrange

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I agree that a lot of the analysis of Leon’s results are too short term.

For me, the key numbers are 7, 6, 10 and 7.

Those are our ladder position finishes for the regular season in the last 4 years - averaging 7th-8th.

If you accept that you generally need to finish Top 4 to win a flag, we’re just not getting clear shots at it from our ladder finishes.

So let’s hope for a big win this weekend and a run all the way to the 2021 GF.

However, that’s the low probability path to success.

The high probability path is Top 4.

There’s been passing comment about Dogs fans calling for Bevo’s head.

For me, that speaks to Dogs members who believe Top 4 is critical - and that Bevo just let it slip to 5th.

I hope we win the 2021 Flag and finish Top 4 in 2022.

However, results will have to better than at any time in club history as we’ve never finished higher than 4th in the regular season.



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Orange crush

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I agree that a lot of the analysis of Leon’s results are too short term.

For me, the key numbers are 7, 6, 10 and 7.

Those are our ladder position finishes for the regular season in the last 4 years - averaging 7th-8th.

If you accept that you generally need to finish Top 4 to win a flag, we’re just not getting clear shots at it from our ladder finishes.

So let’s hope for a big win this weekend and a run all the way to the 2021 GF.

However, that’s the low probability path to success.

The high probability path is Top 4.

There’s been passing comment about Dogs fans calling for Bevo’s head.

For me, that speaks to Dogs members who believe Top 4 is critical - and that Bevo just let it slip to 5th.

I hope we win the 2021 Flag and finish Top 4 in 2022.

However, results will have to better than at any time in club history as we’ve never finished higher than 4th in the regular season.



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I agree 7-8th is not getting it done but I honestly believe that we are only now starting to get our list in good order, not just talentwise but age spread and having developed in a better system

top 4 next year is vital
 

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