Analysis Giants Coaching. Your thoughts.

Remove this Banner Ad

Danny88

Premiership Player
Mar 21, 2014
3,001
2,593
AFL Club
GWS
I agree that a lot of the analysis of Leon’s results are too short term.

For me, the key numbers are 7, 6, 10 and 7.

Those are our ladder position finishes for the regular season in the last 4 years - averaging 7th-8th.

If you accept that you generally need to finish Top 4 to win a flag, we’re just not getting clear shots at it from our ladder finishes.

So let’s hope for a big win this weekend and a run all the way to the 2021 GF.

However, that’s the low probability path to success.

The high probability path is Top 4.

There’s been passing comment about Dogs fans calling for Bevo’s head.

For me, that speaks to Dogs members who believe Top 4 is critical - and that Bevo just let it slip to 5th.

I hope we win the 2021 Flag and finish Top 4 in 2022.

However, results will have to better than at any time in club history as we’ve never finished higher than 4th in the regular season.



Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
So do you blame Leon for the injury list too? Cos if you oversimplify it down to ladder positions like you have.... are you taking those things into account?
 

Log in to remove this ad.

ClockworkOrange

Club Legend
Jan 30, 2016
1,093
1,731
AFL Club
GWS
So do you blame Leon for the injury list too? Cos if you oversimplify it down to ladder positions like you have.... are you taking those things into account?
Blame - no, I understand it’s the CEO who makes the medical/conditioning appointments.

Yes, I’m taking all that into account in understanding the disappointments of 2016-21.

Apologies to the mods, I realise this should be discussed in coaching thread.

My bad.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
 

GWS Goose

Norm Smith Medallist
Nov 14, 2011
8,247
14,088
Emu Plains
AFL Club
GWS
I've always been bemused with the dialogue that Leon can't coach.

He got us to the finals a year ahead of schedule. Coming into 2016 most people thought we were an outside chance to grab 7th or 8th.

Every year since we have had horrendous injury lists and he still cost us to the semies all but one year. No one gets sacked after making 3 prelims, includng a GF in 4 years even if they have a bad year.

We have always had a strange list. We've had loads of top end talent and loads of really talented kids. Not enough mid range players.

Soon as you bring in lots of kids, you get inconsistency, you have fade outs in games and people missing their assignment. Soon as we have a few injuries we have lots of kids playing.

We may have had a top 4 list for the bulk of 2017-19, but the sides that run out there has a huge development tinge to them.

2020 was terrible. We didnt handle covid. Not desirable, but it happens.

Leon has done a good job.

Is there a better coach, probably.
 

Hendo_21

Team Captain
Aug 14, 2021
411
470
AFL Club
GWS
I've always been bemused with the dialogue that Leon can't coach.

He got us to the finals a year ahead of schedule. Coming into 2016 most people thought we were an outside chance to grab 7th or 8th.

Every year since we have had horrendous injury lists and he still cost us to the semies all but one year. No one gets sacked after making 3 prelims, includng a GF in 4 years even if they have a bad year.

We have always had a strange list. We've had loads of top end talent and loads of really talented kids. Not enough mid range players.

Soon as you bring in lots of kids, you get inconsistency, you have fade outs in games and people missing their assignment. Soon as we have a few injuries we have lots of kids playing.

We may have had a top 4 list for the bulk of 2017-19, but the sides that run out there has a huge development tinge to them.

2020 was terrible. We didnt handle covid. Not desirable, but it happens.

Leon has done a good job.

Is there a better coach, probably.
100% agreed, Leon isn't perfect by any means but I don't think there's any point in sacking leon just for the sake of changing things up
 

Giant Strides

Moderator
Nov 23, 2015
6,700
9,068
AFL Club
GWS
I've always been bemused with the dialogue that Leon can't coach.

He got us to the finals a year ahead of schedule. Coming into 2016 most people thought we were an outside chance to grab 7th or 8th.

Every year since we have had horrendous injury lists and he still cost us to the semies all but one year. No one gets sacked after making 3 prelims, includng a GF in 4 years even if they have a bad year.

We have always had a strange list. We've had loads of top end talent and loads of really talented kids. Not enough mid range players.

Soon as you bring in lots of kids, you get inconsistency, you have fade outs in games and people missing their assignment. Soon as we have a few injuries we have lots of kids playing.

We may have had a top 4 list for the bulk of 2017-19, but the sides that run out there has a huge development tinge to them.

2020 was terrible. We didnt handle covid. Not desirable, but it happens.

Leon has done a good job.

Is there a better coach, probably.
I'm probably pretty similarly minded. I was prepared to give him a 'pass' for last year given the circumstances. However, mid this year when we looked shot ducks, it seemed to be stacking up against him - how long do you make excuses for someone not performing to where you need them to, essentially? But dragging us into finals would seem to give him a 'pass' for this year, but we do need to be hitting the top 4 and PF/GF territory.
 

ClockworkOrange

Club Legend
Jan 30, 2016
1,093
1,731
AFL Club
GWS
No one gets sacked after making 3 prelims, includng a GF in 4 years even if they have a bad year.
Our very own Greek tragedy is that we won the wrong prelim and played in the wrong GF.

We really should have beaten the Dogs in ‘16, and lost to the Pies in ‘19.

But that’s what makes it such compelling drama.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
 

Giant Strides

Moderator
Nov 23, 2015
6,700
9,068
AFL Club
GWS
Our very own Greek tragedy is that we won the wrong prelim and played in the wrong GF.

We really should have beaten the Dogs in ‘16, and lost to the Pies in ‘19.

But that’s what makes it such compelling drama.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
Hell no.

Should have beaten Dogs in '16 AND Pies in '19.
 

GWS Goose

Norm Smith Medallist
Nov 14, 2011
8,247
14,088
Emu Plains
AFL Club
GWS
I feel this year ends the speculation on whether or not he can coach.

There will always be differences of opinion on selections and roles and game play.

But making the finals 5 out of 6 years and winning at least 1 final every one of those seasons is a record of consistency.

Throw in the injuries we have endured and it is a mighty effort.

The injury levels we have received year on year warrants further investigation.

There is always an element of luck in these things, but over an extended period , there may be more to it.
 

Giant Strides

Moderator
Nov 23, 2015
6,700
9,068
AFL Club
GWS
I feel this year ends the speculation on whether or not he can coach.
I'm sorry, but I don't believe this - unless we do happen to win the flag. The rumbles will continue, like they did with Damien Hardwick, until/unless he achieves a GF win.
The injury levels we have received year on year warrants further investigation.
There is always an element of luck in these things, but over an extended period , there may be more to it.
Absolutely - but haven't we done this at least once (and probably should have more times?
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

ClockworkOrange

Club Legend
Jan 30, 2016
1,093
1,731
AFL Club
GWS
I think there are considerable similarities between Ken Hinkley and Leon in terms of tenure and results.

If I’m not mistaken, they are both the longest serving coaches without a flag.

Unpopular opinion, probably both on this board and possibly in SA, but what I respect about Hinkley is his home and away finishes.

He has delivered two top 2 finishes and two 5th place.

By contrast, Leon’s best is two 4ths.

This is NOT me making the case for Ken Hinkley to coach the Giants.

Further, I support Leon’s being given a chance to deliver Top 4 in 2022.

However, I feel Hinkley may be a fair benchmark for Leon.

You can reasonably argue as to why Leon should perhaps be held to a higher standard - Dimma, Simpson, etc.

You can also reasonably argue we have had greater list advantages.

However, I don’t think Hinkley is mentioned much here so thought I’d throw it on the table.



Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
 

Orange crush

All Australian
Aug 12, 2017
655
1,046
AFL Club
GWS
I think there are considerable similarities between Ken Hinkley and Leon in terms of tenure and results.

If I’m not mistaken, they are both the longest serving coaches without a flag.

Unpopular opinion, probably both on this board and possibly in SA, but what I respect about Hinkley is his home and away finishes.

He has delivered two top 2 finishes and two 5th place.

By contrast, Leon’s best is two 4ths.

This is NOT me making the case for Ken Hinkley to coach the Giants.

Further, I support Leon’s being given a chance to deliver Top 4 in 2022.

However, I feel Hinkley may be a fair benchmark for Leon.

You can reasonably argue as to why Leon should perhaps be held to a higher standard - Dimma, Simpson, etc.

You can also reasonably argue we have had greater list advantages.

However, I don’t think Hinkley is mentioned much here so thought I’d throw it on the table.



Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
yep, Leon has done well but top 4 is necessary next year .... regarding any possible extension we should play it by ear leading into finals next year
 

Hendo_21

Team Captain
Aug 14, 2021
411
470
AFL Club
GWS
I believe Leon's contract is up at the end of next year if we all hold this list in such high esteem which we should because I think it's really talented on pretty much every line with a great mix of youth and star power, then we'd be silly not to look for the best coach. If we interview multiple people and we still think Leon is the best option then go with that, but we'd be dumb ignore other canidates who can get us over the hump. If Clarko wants to come back to coaching and wants to be here then there should truly be no hesitation to bring him in.
 

ClockworkOrange

Club Legend
Jan 30, 2016
1,093
1,731
AFL Club
GWS
yep, Leon has done well but top 4 is necessary next year .... regarding any possible extension we should play it by ear leading into finals next year
I agree 100 per cent.

However, this potential ‘Leon is Coach of the Year’ news is now being pushed on both Fox and at AFL.com.

If the Chair and CEO want to extend early, I expect this will be presented as the rationale.

You would ordinarily expect Simon Goodwin would win Coach of the Year, but this is - as everyone knows - a weird year.



Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
 

Giant Strides

Moderator
Nov 23, 2015
6,700
9,068
AFL Club
GWS
I agree 100 per cent.

However, this potential ‘Leon is Coach of the Year’ news is now being pushed on both Fox and at AFL.com.

If the Chair and CEO want to extend early, I expect this will be presented as the rationale.

You would ordinarily expect Simon Goodwin would win Coach of the Year, but this is - as everyone knows - a weird year.

Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
Hmm, has Leon been surprisingly good from where we could have been - yes.

Do I think he's been coach of the year - no.

Not a sledge, just an honest opinion.
 

General Giant

Hall of Famer
Apr 12, 2012
41,422
34,905
AFL Club
GWS
Putting this in here instead of media


AFL to appeal three-week ban handed to Toby Greene for umpire contact
Giants coach Leon Cameron reveals why he is refusing to give up on Toby Greene in a far-reaching Q&A about his controversial star, his own family and being under the microscope.

Marc McGowan


Giants coach Leon Cameron works out of a Sydney market that, at first inspection, should provide an escape from the Melbourne AFL bubble.
Instead, the former Bulldog and Tiger is one of the game’s most scrutinised coaches, because of his perceived advantages.

Amid one of the most challenging years of his football life, Cameron’s led his team to the second week of the finals.

Marc McGowan: You had a narrow finals win over the Swans and now you play a Geelong team that’s copped non-stop criticism for the past week. How are you feeling about this one?

Leon Cameron: It’s a huge challenge for our young group against a very mature finals team. The side that loses that first week almost always bounces back the second week, because of the barrage of abuse they cop, after they might have had a poor first final. The stakes rise again and we need to rise to the occasion, but every time we’ve had to raise the bar in the last six weeks, we have. It’s a wonderful opportunity to play in front of what looks like 40,000 people at Optus Stadium.


MM: The Giants have won at least one final in five of the past six years. Are you pretty proud of that?

LC: I’m really proud we’ve got courageous, great-character players who are built for finals footy. We’re sort of bash and crash and contested, and that stacks up in finals footy. But there’s an empty feeling still and we know what that is. It’s great to win finals and we’ve been to a grand final, but your ultimate aim is to win a flag. You don’t want to be the bridesmaid all the time or the side that finishes fourth, fifth or sixth.

MM: There were people calling for you to be sacked when the Giants were 0-3. Now, after overcoming mass injuries and being on the road for 10 weeks to make the finals, some of those same people are saying you might be the coach of the year.

LC: You understand when you jump into being a senior coach that scrutiny is going to come. (Former GWS football boss) ‘Gubby’ Allan always said to me, ‘It’s never that good and it’s never that bad’. I find it quite funny. Sometimes in coaching when you win, they say, ‘Great coaching’ but you didn’t do anything different from last week, when you lost by two goals. We just might have kicked straight, finished our work or something might have happened. You can’t let it eat you up too much. People will write stories regardless. To be honest, I read only some of them.


MM: It’s surely not that easy, though, is it, with people constantly judging you and even calling for you to be sacked?

LC: I’ve got a choice to put my energy into my family and my footy club, or some person who might be having a crack at me every week. This article, this time next year; who knows what they’ll be saying? There is only one coach who wins the premiership, and there will be other coaches judged either fairly or harshly. When you sign up for it, you’ve got to be prepared for it and ignore as much of the outside noise as you can. Ultimately, I don’t walk out of a game, knowing we’ve won a really good match, and think, ‘Come on, bring all the goodness to me, because you’ve been giving it to me the last few weeks’.

MM: Speaking of family, you and your wife, Carolyn, have three children – Amelia, Harry and Jack. How important is it to you to be a good father?

LC: Oh, it’s huge. I was extremely lucky to have a very good mother who brought up four kids. She did a wonderful job. We had some challenges as a young fella, so that experience strengthened my desire to be a very good dad. Coaching is a high-pressure environment and it’s very easy for me to get home at night and go straight to my computer and not spend time with my three kids. I’m determined to make sure the journey for me as a coach is theirs as well, but I have to be involved in what they’re doing as well, because why have kids if you’re not going to be a good dad?

MM: What did you make of your portrayal in the Amazon doco and how others reacted to it?

LC: That doesn’t worry me — people can make their own decisions. There was probably a bit too much swearing, but they’re always going to grab the juicy bits. My coaching hasn’t changed a hell of a lot from last year to this one, or the year before that. I would’ve learned a couple of things, because I learn something every year. But imagine if that Amazon camera was in our walls in 2019? I probably would have been portrayed as, ‘How good is the coach, because he’s got to the grand final?’. We’re in the win-loss business, and you’re going to be portrayed differently from losing to winning.

MM: One of the major scenes was you telling your captain, Stephen Coniglio, you were dropping him for the penultimate round of last year. How tough was that?

LC: I’ve had plenty of hard, awkward conversations in the past 10 years, because we’re in a high-performance environment and we want improvement. But I’m a people person and there’s genuine empathy and honesty involved, so that was extremely hard. I know people are going to judge whether it was the right or wrong thing. Our relationship is very strong. I know people are going to try and drive a wedge between us, but we spend lots of time together.

MM: How has he handled, while being sidelined with injuries, all the commentary that Toby Greene is a better captain than him and should replace him?

LC: Toby and ‘Cogs’ are very close. They’re very good friends off the field, very good friends on the field and they’ve helped each other through this. The more leaders you have at your footy club; the better off you are. If Toby Greene’s become a better captain, along with Josh Kelly, because Stephen’s been out, then we’re better for the experience. Stephen, behind the scenes, has had to work through some tough situations for himself, but if that means he becomes a better captain and also a better player or person, then it’s only a good thing. We’re really proud of all three of them.

MM: What have you made of the Toby Greene furore in the past week and the incident itself?

LC: The disappointment is he’s put himself in a position that we all know is so awkward and he was always going to be judged really hard on this. He’s done the wrong thing and he needs to learn from this, but that doesn’t mean we give up on Toby Greene, just because he’s done the wrong thing. I’m his greatest backer. I back him in and so I should — I’m his coach. I look at it like when one of your children does the wrong thing and they’ve got to apologise. Toby’s apologised and he’s shattered. He knows he’s done the wrong thing. When you’ve got to apologise in life; it’s how you apologise, then what you do about it is what we’ve got to make sure we get right. We put our arms around him, we’ve got to educate him and we’ve got to work through some things to make sure this really hard situation Toby found himself in at the weekend never, ever happens again.


MM: This is now the 22nd time Toby’s been found guilty, whether a fine or a suspension. Will he learn this time?

LC: I think we’re dealing with a totally different situation here. The rap sheet, I understand that. He’s put himself in a really awkward situation here and we all know how awkward it’s become. But some of the other things he’s gone through are pure footy incidents and we’ve got to continue to educate him on those as well. But this is a different one, which is why I comment that we really need to learn from this one. But I’m not going to give up, because the day you give up, what does it say to your person, who every day you’re asking them to do hard pre-seasons and everything else? He will learn from this and this is going to be a hard pill to swallow. It’s a raw situation we’re in but we have to learn from it and Toby has as well.

MM: You have the challenge as Giants coach of knowing you will lose key players regularly. What’s that like, with your major rivals often adding to their arsenal at the same time?

LC: People will say, ‘Spoiled brats, you lose players because you’ve got too many of them’. But I think we’ve done a really good job to make sure our players are comfortable and want to stay for the right reason. You guys can comment on that, but it’s been a team effort to keep players at our footy club, considering the first two years we won two or three games, were getting belted by 100 points and we’re in western Sydney in rugby league territory. It’s disappointing to lose players, because they’re really good people and I still have relationships with a lot of them. But there’s only so many players who can be on the list and only so much money in the cap.

MM: We know Josh Kelly is staying and will be a Giants ‘lifer’, as you call them. How big was that for the club, and when will Jacob Hopper follow suit?

LC: Josh and Jacob both procrastinate a bit. But for Josh to make that decision to become a lifer at the Giants is just wonderful, unbelievable news. As for Jacob, I’m really confident he’ll sign. He lives in a great house, he’s settled and he’s got a great partner, Liv. I can’t see it not happening. I think he’s just that hellbent on playing combative footy every weekend. Whenever the season stops, he’ll go, ‘Righto, I’m going to take a breath, now slide the contract in front of me and I’ll sign it’.

MM: Tell us about the inroads the Giants are making in Sydney and your rivalry with the Swans.

LC: In Sydney, you have to win. That doesn’t mean you have to win every week, but you’ve got to be a really competitive club to gain eyes on you. We’re up to 30,000 members and we’re only 10 years old. We play a tough, good brand of footy and we have players staying for life. The rivalry is great. They’re a super club, the Swans, and everything we’re trying to be. They’ve won a premiership in the past 10 years and they’ve got a big membership base. In another 10-15 years’ time, we want to get to 50,000-60,000 members. We want to win premierships and capture the hearts of the west and in Canberra and the surrounding areas. We’re on track to do that.

MM: Good luck on Friday night.

LC: Thanks, mate. We’re going to need everything to go our way but we’ll be OK. We’ll leave nothing out there.
 

ClockworkOrange

Club Legend
Jan 30, 2016
1,093
1,731
AFL Club
GWS
The 2022 top 4 race is going to be absolutely brutal.

So many coaches will have their jobs on the line.

Hinkley, Scott, Leon and probably whoever loses next week’s GF too.

We need some draft/trade magic, an injury free pre-season and must get off to a strong, winning start before TFG returns.

Hard to see the Demons or Dogs (again) missing top 4 in 2022, so there’s probably two open slots available.

A lot will have to go right for us to clinch one of them.

IMG_5638.JPG



Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
 

Danny88

Premiership Player
Mar 21, 2014
3,001
2,593
AFL Club
GWS
The 2022 top 4 race is going to be absolutely brutal.

So many coaches will have their jobs on the line.

Hinkley, Scott, Leon and probably whoever loses next week’s GF too.

We need some draft/trade magic, an injury free pre-season and must get off to a strong, winning start before TFG returns.

Hard to see the Demons or Dogs (again) missing top 4 in 2022, so there’s probably two open slots available.

A lot will have to go right for us to clinch one of them.

View attachment 1235343


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
You quoted 3 coaches with exceptional finals records and said they have their jobs up for grabs in 2022.... what nonsense

The worst part of this is you used Kane Cornes as a source.... he is absurd and just looks to create a headline
 

ClockworkOrange

Club Legend
Jan 30, 2016
1,093
1,731
AFL Club
GWS
You quoted 3 coaches with exceptional finals records and said they have their jobs up for grabs in 2022.... what nonsense

The worst part of this is you used Kane Cornes as a source.... he is absurd and just looks to create a headline
What I was observing was that the Top 4 race in 2022 - in which we will be central too - will be important to the future or otherwise of multiple long standing tenured coaches.

In the case of Scott, Hinkley and Leon it’s one flag in more than a quarter of a century of seasons - and that one flag was a decade ago.

By contrast, IMO Longmire and Rutten are under relatively less short term pressure heading into 2022.

You can of course disagree with that opinion, but it’s not being dismissed without any evidence as “nonsense” by the BF posters of those clubs.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
 
Last edited:

GWS Goose

Norm Smith Medallist
Nov 14, 2011
8,247
14,088
Emu Plains
AFL Club
GWS
What I was observing was that the Top 4 race in 2022 - in which we will be central too - will be important to the future or otherwise of multiple long standing tenured coaches.

In the case of Scott, Hinkley and Leon it’s one flag in more than a quarter of a century of seasons - and that one flag was a decade ago.

By contrast, IMO Longmire and Rutten are under relatively less short term pressure heading into 2022.

You can of course disagree with that opinion, but it’s not being dismissed without any evidence as “nonsense” by the BF posters of those clubs.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
Mathematically, you win 1 in 18 (all things being equal), so 1 in 25 is not too far away.
I just don't understand why those 3 should be under pressure.
They have consistently had there teams competitive and in the mix. Only 1 team can win it each year.
 

Remove this Banner Ad

Remove this Banner Ad