Giants Coaching. Your thoughts.

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fridgeman

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#78
I think an AFL experienced line coach or assistant is required and a possibility is Brett Montgomery who is on staff but just if his family is interested in the move
I am sure they will be looking at options in terms of structure but it also depends on the budget
I will use the example of both Hawthorn and the Cats who have signed players from their VFL teams and although the Giants have the Academy once a player is no longer eligible for the academy they are not able to play in the NEAFL which ends the association and a chance to continue developing that player
It would be great if the Giants NEAFL squad could have 2-4 players who they can continue to develop and look at drafting although it seems like an extension of the rookie list it would be interesting to see what happens in the WAFL and SANFL with the 2 teams in that league Simmofreo coniglio_number1
The loss does show the erosion of the depth that the last 3 years trading periods have done and the changes to the salary cap although I believe the club is on the right track some of the development of players needs to be looked at and also injury management
 
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#79
We need a transition coach because the only way we effectively get it into the forward 50 is running it. When the forward fifty is congested we only bomb it.

This is not just about forwards leading, it’s about other methods. It’s forwards and minds working together.

Geelong exposed out last night in a huge way and yes, while it is an excuse that our best contested mark and two best marking forwards were out, it isn’t good enough.
 
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I made the comment when this thread appeared last time that I was concerned that Leon was not up to the job, and that remains a concern, but let's be realistic. There are very few premiership coaches out there, and if we did go with the strident 'sack Leon' calls from some last night, the first question is 'who replaces him?' and equally important 'who would be better?'. If GWS could get Clarko, that would be a no-brainer - I reckon he'd make any team better. He's got the 'vibe', he's a creator of tactics, and he's ruthless (which I agree Leon lacks, whoever commented on that last night). The other premiership coaches still going are Chris Scott, Longmire, Hardwick & Beveridge. Longmire's team started 0-6 last year, and Swans fans regularly call for his head. Scott is perceived to have inherited his premiership side, and Cats fans regularly decry his coaching ability. Dimma looked cooked in 2016, but pulls a premiership out last year. The lesson for us would be to see what he changed about himself, the setup etc and how Leon could apply that. Beveridge is an interesting one. Took a young side to a premiership, but then fell apart in the following 2 years. Was he good, good/lucky, good but then unlucky etc? To be honest, 2016 was a close run thing. While the Bulldogs were pretty innovative and really willing, but unlucky with injuries in H&A, I do believe they did get a bit lucky in the finals series, just how it fell - the bye, injuries to opposition key players in big games, their own injured players returning etc. But for a little change of luck, that could have been Leon holding the cup on the big day, and what would we all be saying now? Are any of them sure things to take over and deliver a premiership? Personally, I don't think so. Could they do a better job? Well, maybe a couple of them.

In regards some of the selections or non-selections. Remember that the coach gets the players chosen by the list management team, although it's unknown how much say Leon has in that. So they elected to keep Dawson as second ruck, but pick up Keeffe as an insurance ruck (despite that not being a real strength of his). Also to choose Jack Buckley as a rookie KPF and Dylan Buckley as a small forward. Yes, it's Leon choice in combination with the MC for the team on the park. I can get the rationale for not blooding a first year in a difficult game at the Cattery - which turned out as a bloodbath. (And Dylan Buckley wasn't our worst.) While I disagreed (and probably still do) with the acquisition of Buckley & Keeffe because I don't think they're players to take us forward, I also get the rationale. We've paid big money to keep as many stars as we can, so have to fill in with junior players or cheap recycled players around them. More draftees just increases the inexperience sitting behind the first grade team, which is especially noticeable when we get injury patches like we're in now. Richmond won a premiership getting value out of cheap & recycled players (such as our own Jacob Townsend, who displayed really nothing that indicated he could do what he's done for Richmond) - so I get why they might try a similar approach.

What I'm more concerned about really is Leon being conservative and sticking with setups and approaches that are obviously not working. Persisting with Stevie J last year when he was pretty clearly cooked IMHO was one. 3 KPDs is another - which has been even more problematic this year with both Patton & HH down on form, then the injury complications from Lobb & Jezza. I get the concern about 'coaching by media releases', but to be fair, GWS needs to garner as much positive publicity as it can. A lot of people on here were talking up Shipley, so really cannot complain when he was chosen. I thought Langdon needed more time from what I saw in pre-season, but he's done pretty well, and since the coaching staff see more stats & analysis than we do, and understand better how they intend using a player in the system. But when something is clearly not working for several weeks, or within a game, that's when I get frustrated when we don't try something at least different.
 

_GT_

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#81
I believe great leaders read the emotional state of their team and accurately reflect a demeanour back to the group that is constructive. Leon appears to portay a demeanor that is raw and honest, but not constructive. He comes across as drained, confused and not at all confident. This reflects his teams state of mind, and no doubt his own at the moment. I am taking this from his pressers and interviews, so maybe this is not fully reflective of how he is behind closed doors. However, looking at his body language at the short breaks during games, I just don't see the calm, steely and ruthless demeanour the team needs to feed off. As has been pointed out coaches on their game embody this - Clarko and Dimmer examples. I look at Dimmer and see a coach that worked this out. Leon can do the same.

The next piece of the puzzle is all players on the list, and all coaches getting behind a game plan. We either don't have one, or we don't believe in it. Neither is an acceptable situation. Another aspect we have control of right now.

What we can't control right now is the list we have and the injuries. Just have to work with what you have in this regard.

Leon has my support for now. Miss top four, and things might change.
 

Giant Pete

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#82
We need a transition coach because the only way we effectively get it into the forward 50 is running it. When the forward fifty is congested we only bomb it.

This is not just about forwards leading, it’s about other methods. It’s forwards and minds working together.

Geelong exposed out last night in a huge way and yes, while it is an excuse that our best contested mark and two best marking forwards were out, it isn’t good enough.
It’s a coaching thing without doubt. For example, in our last few games against them, I can’t remember Patton ever having a one on one opportunity in our F50 against geelong... there is always help defence for them. Conversely, think over the last few games Hawkins has had against us! Our defenders don’t help each other enough imo. That needs to be coached. They have Matthew Scarlett as a defensive coach.... who is ours??
 

Orange Agent

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#85
Poach John Blakey as an assistant, can stay in Sydney, we pay him more, if Leon still stinks it up easy to replace. I wonder if we have inexperienced assistants because somebody would prefer it that way, if that is the case there is big problems.
 

Andre the Giant

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#86
Poach John Blakey as an assistant, can stay in Sydney, we pay him more, if Leon still stinks it up easy to replace. I wonder if we have inexperienced assistants because somebody would prefer it that way, if that is the case there is big problems.
I think the AFL is always under pressure from the bigger clubs about spending with GWS and as such tends to do some things on the cheap, coaching being one of them.

If you look at the box honestly it looks like some of those helpers are on work experience. Others like Hayes were great players but are learning on the job. He could really use some help, look at Dimma at Richmond when he got some gooduns in?

I actually really respect Leons ability to read the game and analyse its contents but I also think he lacks the ruthless nature. He could use some help.
 

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captainMyCaptain

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#87
There is always an element of fools gold when it comes to wanting to replace the current coach and thinking whoever they bring in next is going to be so much better then the current guy and often that's not the reality. But will say that at the minute it does look like the club made a mistake in extending Leon's contract until 2020 but I would also say that unless we could get Clarkson we are better off staying the current course for now.
 

Isaac Cumming No 1

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#89
There is always an element of fools gold when it comes to wanting to replace the current coach and thinking whoever they bring in next is going to be so much better then the current guy and often that's not the reality. But will say that at the minute it does look like the club made a mistake in extending Leon's contract until 2020 but I would also say that unless we could get Clarkson we are better off staying the current course for now.
I think he was extended mid season last year for a reason, and that it was very deliberate to move before the finals last year. He was always going to be criticized to an irrational level of we were perceived as underforming, which was likely given the unrealistic expectations of the AFL world and our members.

I go back to a speech by Sheedy at the 2015 club awards when he he pointed out how many years he coached the Bombers with very good lists a lot of the time for 3 flags. He saw the danger in huge expectations in a very tough competition.

Bottom line is I believe Leon's contract was extended precisely so he wouldn't have to look over his shoulder at the ignorant criticism of nuffies, and allow him to focus on the job at hand
 

Andre the Giant

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#93
He needs a change.

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Imagine if Clarko could go to a 2nd club and take it to the promised land. A club blessed with talent but under-achievement that needs success to establish a foothold in the toughest market in the country.

He could hang around and be the next Craig Bellamy!
 

General Giant

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Imagine if Clarko could go to a 2nd club and take it to the promised land. A club blessed with talent but under-achievement that needs success to establish a foothold in the toughest market in the country.

He could hang around and be the next Craig Bellamy!
We can dream.

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#95
IMO, the single biggest factor in the form slump is due to the absence of Willo and Williams.
They had better evasive skills than any of our other defenders, better kicking execution, and they rebounded at half back and kicked inside the 50.
Both let in the opposition behind them, granted, but we're not getting rebound like we did.

It's the middle 50 transition hurting us, exacerbated by Kelly & Scully's absence as well as Zaccie Williams
.
 

Andre the Giant

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#96
IMO, the single biggest factor in the form slump is due to the absence of Willo and Williams.
They had better evasive skills than any of our other defenders, better kicking execution, and they rebounded at half back and kicked inside the 50.
Both let in the opposition behind them, granted, but we're not getting rebound like we did.

It's the middle 50 transition hurting us, exacerbated by Kelly & Scully's absence as well as Zaccie Williams
.
It’s a good point and we are also seeing the decline of Heater who is not the same player.

I feel the startling thing having gone to a few games is our lack of structure and organisation. There really doesn’t appear to be any system. When you watch Hawthorn and Geelong you can really see that players are so organised. This can be due to coaching but also personnel as we have been decimated.

I went to the Dogs/ Lions game last night and Brisbane were so well set up. Even though they still make a lot of silly errors their basic structure looks good. I’d like to see us look that way! Otherwise it just looks like you’re relying on God given talent.
 

fridgeman

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#97
A lot of questioning of Camerons coaching ability which is always required and hopefully he can learn from the challenges and that is only one of the factors in the teams slump
I put it down too
Inexperienced coaches throughout the team and it would be good to compare v other teams but here is their experience before the Giants
  • Leon Cameron Dogs Assistant 6 years Hawks Assistant 2 years
  • Shane Mumford Zero
Not sure on the coaching talent that has left but it has seen a few ex players move on Power, Cornes and Brogan are names that had coaching positions after playing
Loss of depth and experience at the end of the 2017 season Mumford/SJ/Smith/Kennedy/Wilson
Long term Injuries to keep players Scully/Greene/Kelly/Williams are big losses
Trading out of depth/developing players over the 14/15/16 drafts how good would it be to have a WHE/Ahern playing in this team
What is the solution? Apart from getting players back on the park this season I would hope the club looks at adding an experienced assistant and hopefully in the backline over the off season, trades in a ready to go best 25 player and adds to the depth of the list with some 25-30 list experienced players and hopefully no trades out although that will come down to the SC
I would think some Demons and Lions players may be looking for more opportunities but it is always if they are willing to come to the Giants and as the club will not pay a huge amount it is a hard sell
 

dlanod

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Moderator #98
I find the term "experienced assistant" a bit funny.

Most of the time it's used as a euphemism for "ex-head coach". The problem is that most of those are ex-head coaches for a reason. Recent hires like Eade didn't help Buckley out of his slide for example. Neil Craig oversaw Neeld, Hird and Bolton, which is not exactly a vote of confidence.

If it's not a euphemism then you're not going to find a more experienced assistant than Alan McConnell.

On an additional note, Leon Cameron is the 82nd most experienced head coach in the history of the game. Crazy but true.

Realistically if we think experienced assistants are the difference between Cameron succeeding and not, then what we're really saying is that we don't think he'll succeed in which case there's no point shifting deck chairs on the Titanic.
 

Isaac Cumming No 1

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#99
So Leon is beyond reproach?


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I think you meant to reply to me so...

If you read what I said I clearly did not say Leon should be beyond criticism. I did say I believe his contract position is the result of the club making a considered decision taking into account the risk of exaggerated criticism, I still do.
 

General Giant

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I think you meant to reply to me so...

If you read what I said I clearly did not say Leon should be beyond criticism. I did say I believe his contract position is the result of the club making a considered decision taking into account the risk of exaggerated criticism, I still do.
Calling questioning Leons coaching skills "ignorant criticism by nuffies" kinda says you think we shouldnt.

But if youre saying im wrong with that belief then fine.

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