Analysis Giants Coaching. Your thoughts.

Danny88

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Interested to know if anyone thinks that Leon's let's go defensive was a good plan in theory?

What with all the talent we have.
Well you clearly didn't like it that much is clear lol

I think it was a combination of their pressure, their quick defensive set up and their posession game coupled with the fact our main movers of the ball had poor games. Cogs was down, hopper was poor, Kelly butchered the ball when he found it...

All those factors meant we probably just tried to maintain possession when we had it as we seemed to turn it over then not see the ball again for 5 minutes.

Certainly out-coached on the weekend but aginst one of the great modern coaches Im not sure thats necessarily a bad thing.

I agree our best work is when it is an open running game
 

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fridgeman

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I do believe some fault can be put down to the coaching but I think other things are more the reason for losses mainly injuries and not having the top end talent playing together, for example this week looks like Kelly out and Whitfield in and earlier in the season Kelly and Greene missing games. Also due to the injuries in the last 2 years the reserves team regularly was playing with less than 10 listed players and last year I think over 70 players played NEAFL for the Giants this has partly being addressed this year with a better injury run keeping at least 10 AFL listed players in the team but the lack of any ability to develop a player in this situation surely has hurt the development of players, example Bonar who either lacks the fitness or effort to impact how he should based on his talent.
I will also say the team is still young IMO and this will be the case for a couple of years yet and although I was bullish on the recruitment of Nicks as senior assistant I believe another experienced coach is needed in an area of the ground
Overall I think Cameron needs to either win or reach the GF this year or next year look to be top 2 going into the back end of the season or then the club will look at its options IMO
 

gee whiz giant

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I believe another experienced coach is needed in an area of the ground
What's happening defence-wise?
Early in the year we were miserly, giving up 7-8 goals per game.
Lately, it seems we're back to the old habits of pushing up hard, letting the loose ball out, and chasing back opposition on their speedy breaks.
 

Callums_Guns

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What's happening defence-wise?
Early in the year we were miserly, giving up 7-8 goals per game.
Lately, it seems we're back to the old habits of pushing up hard, letting the loose ball out, and chasing back opposition on their speedy breaks.
1.Reid got moved to Mid lock down role last week which did a great job, but then Heater couldnt do his role so moved back to Backs then Mid's exposed
2.As above No DeBoer
3.Heater up and down
4.Whitfield injured
5.Hayne was out
6.Mid's injured
7.No back up for Mummy which is BS coming too easy out of CTR, need a gun ruck back up not a Dawson or a kid, last year had Lobb
8.Game plan is ****** when dealing with all of the above, no plan B, C, D, E so on
 

Danny88

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Let’s break down the issue here. Giants have a good list with talented players. We lose games and people don’t understand how this could happen. They then blame Leon.

Our game plan is built around the strengths of the group. Our strengths are elite running and outside run.therefore we differ to teams like Hawthorne without those attributes who, when under pressure, will opt to slow the ball down and retain possession. We on the other hand will try to switch and even double switch to get the ball to the outside as often as possible. The Roos game is a good example of this. When we were under pressure we upped the pace rather than slowed it. Where I think maybe we have been found out is that when our outside game is shut down or slowed, we have struggled to change it. It is a fine line between persisting with a game plan we know works to our strength (Roos) or not changing fast food bough (hawks).

As we look around the league there are a plethora of coaches without a job this year and is seems teams have such limited options with who to replace head coaches with they are looking to other failed head coaches to fill the need. It doesn’t seem there is a viable second option.

If we look at Leon’s strengths of man management we cannot doubt one of the reasons we have a strong list in a tough market is his ability to forge strong bonds.

My concern is the Leon out crap that is once again gaining momentum is so shortsighted as it ignores his cstrengths- what if he goes and in three years we turn into suns2.0 where we can’t retain a player? It also doesn’t identify a genuine candidate to take over.

My view is we have a custom game plan that plays to the strengths of the list and a list that largely wants to stay together to see success. I credit Leon with this. The lack of a viable alternative is also a concern.

What I would like to see is faster reactions and adjustments on field to cope with teams that shut us down- I actually think this is maybe more of an on field leadership issue rather than a coaching one
 

dlanod

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If we look at Leon’s strengths of man management we cannot doubt one of the reasons we have a strong list in a tough market is his ability to forge strong bonds.

My concern is the Leon out crap that is once again gaining momentum is so shortsighted as it ignores his cstrengths- what if he goes and in three years we turn into suns2.0 where we can’t retain a player? It also doesn’t identify a genuine candidate to take over.
This is my concern too. I think the evidence is that Leon's game planning is underwhelming and needs to moved to a more sustainable model than "bomb it in when there's a spare man" + "maintain a poor defensive zone". However I do worry that letting Leon go would lead to an exodus, whereas we've largely managed our departures to date. If Leon looks to rework this, that would be a great step - and we've seen successful coaches do that too, as Hardwick proved. Fagan is another example that could be followed where he is more of a man manager that coaches from the bench while game day responsibilities are shared with Danny Daly in the coaches box. Ultimately though a continued butting of our heads against the first few weeks of finals will probably lead to us losing more players as well, so as good a relationship man Leon might be there is a point of diminishing returns.
 

Danny88

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This is my concern too. I think the evidence is that Leon's game planning is underwhelming and needs to moved to a more sustainable model than "bomb it in when there's a spare man" + "maintain a poor defensive zone". However I do worry that letting Leon go would lead to an exodus, whereas we've largely managed our departures to date. If Leon looks to rework this, that would be a great step - and we've seen successful coaches do that too, as Hardwick proved. Fagan is another example that could be followed where he is more of a man manager that coaches from the bench while game day responsibilities are shared with Danny Daly in the coaches box. Ultimately though a continued butting of our heads against the first few weeks of finals will probably lead to us losing more players as well, so as good a relationship man Leon might be there is a point of diminishing returns.
Player turnover happens regardless of finals results. Both of the cats and hawks lost players during repeated finals attempts. Sydney has bucked the trend and kept most of their players with repeat finals a big factor. Point is I don’t think players will sight that as a reason to leave.

I also don’t think it is a game plan to bomb it long. If you look at the start of the year, we definitely hit up leads and had shorter kicks into the forward line. It has been a frustration of many but I feel we addressed it well. Our midfield has struggled in recent games and the result is panicked forward entries or bombs as you call it

I assume you watch a lot of Brisbane games. They don’t bomb it as often (but still do... it’s a reality of the game) because their fast ball movement means they get the ball on the outside so quickly.
 

dlanod

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Player turnover happens regardless of finals results. Both of the cats and hawks lost players during repeated finals attempts. Sydney has bucked the trend and kept most of their players with repeat finals a big factor. Point is I don’t think players will sight that as a reason to leave.
There's player turnover and player turnover though. There's players who you can afford to lose (arguably Treloar and Shiel and Smith) and then there's players who's loss we'd struggle to replace (Kelly, Whitfield, Taylor).

I also don’t think it is a game plan to bomb it long. If you look at the start of the year, we definitely hit up leads and had shorter kicks into the forward line. It has been a frustration of many but I feel we addressed it well. Our midfield has struggled in recent games and the result is panicked forward entries or bombs as you call it

I assume you watch a lot of Brisbane games. They don’t bomb it as often (but still do... it’s a reality of the game) because their fast ball movement means they get the ball on the outside so quickly.
The difference that gets me frustrated is that Brisbane generally won't kick it to an outnumbered contest whereas you see GWS do it time and again. Think of the Essendon game where we were dominating until the ball entered the forward 50 and we'd spot up Hooker. There's similar footage from the Richmond game and Grimes. It happened against Brisbane too.

If there's a congested forward line Brisbane can send the ball long to a contest but only after making sure it will actually be a contest. We end up with guys like Haynes or Davis or Shaw putting it on the boot as far as they can and the ball rebounding as a result. Guys like Williams or Whitfield are much better options, so yes injuries to our midfield has played a part, but we don't seem to be proactively trying to generate these high value entries.
 

Danny88

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There's player turnover and player turnover though. There's players who you can afford to lose (arguably Treloar and Shiel and Smith) and then there's players who's loss we'd struggle to replace (Kelly, Whitfield, Taylor).



The difference that gets me frustrated is that Brisbane generally won't kick it to an outnumbered contest whereas you see GWS do it time and again. Think of the Essendon game where we were dominating until the ball entered the forward 50 and we'd spot up Hooker. There's similar footage from the Richmond game and Grimes. It happened against Brisbane too.

If there's a congested forward line Brisbane can send the ball long to a contest but only after making sure it will actually be a contest. We end up with guys like Haynes or Davis or Shaw putting it on the boot as far as they can and the ball rebounding as a result. Guys like Williams or Whitfield are much better options, so yes injuries to our midfield has played a part, but we don't seem to be proactively trying to generate these high value entries.
I agree with what you are saying. I just don’t think we see that and the coaching staff don’t is all. I think it’s more the context (that the midfield is not responding to increased pressure when we have the ball in possession) than the coaching in this instance
 

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fridgeman

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Just to point out to people that from the 5 person leadership group the team has only 1 played out the game on Sunday with MDB, Ward and Kelly injured and then Coniglio going down at the start of the game and this weekend will be a big test for the team coming up against an experienced pies team even if Pendlebury misses this weekend. For comparison look at the experience of the Power mids with Boak (258 games) Ebert (246) Gray (212) Rockliff (184) Not all of them play ft mids but the experience of the 22 is massive and it enables them to play the 1st year players and this is something that the Giants have never had of that experience around the ground with only Deledio and Shaw having played over 200 games and then Davis around 160 games and this is due to the SC and list build but it is another factor contributing to the issues the club is facing at the moment. this has been improving as the initial group of players maturing and with several due to hit the 150 game mark over the next 12 months I believe this group is still on an upward trajectory and with some luck and good list management decisions the club will contend for several years yet
 

sunny3193

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Guys, I come in peace.
Rumours going overboard on the Saints thread re the next coach.
Of course Lenny’s name has popped up.
As you would imagine, I have a lot of time for the guy (the only footballer I have ever claimed as my love child 😜).
But....
I seem to recall that he re-signed with you for another couple of years not that long ago?
Which would indicate he is not in the frame.
Does anyone know what his contractual situation is?
Many thanks.
Sunny.
 

Giant Strides

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I seem to recall that he re-signed with you for another couple of years not that long ago? Which would indicate he is not in the frame. Does anyone know what his contractual situation is?
Many thanks. Sunny.
Short answer to your question is no, I can't recall what his contractual situation is. I'm not sure a contract would stop him leaving - GWS seem fairly relaxed about letting blokes go (Sunshine aside).

More broadly, while I think he's a great guy, I'm not sure he'd be seen as ready to go from a head coaching perspective - I realise that he's a Saints legend, but I think he's still learning the trade. Just my opinion though. I think that Brett Ratten is a great option, who you've got right under your noses - he has previous head coaching experience, learned at the Alistair Clarkson mastercoaching school, and knows your players well enough now. Just my thoughts.

Hopefully someone here has a definitive answer to your question.
 

sunny3193

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Short answer to your question is no, I can't recall what his contractual situation is. I'm not sure a contract would stop him leaving - GWS seem fairly relaxed about letting blokes go (Sunshine aside).

More broadly, while I think he's a great guy, I'm not sure he'd be seen as ready to go from a head coaching perspective - I realise that he's a Saints legend, but I think he's still learning the trade. Just my opinion though. I think that Brett Ratten is a great option, who you've got right under your noses - he has previous head coaching experience, learned at the Alistair Clarkson mastercoaching school, and knows your players well enough now. Just my thoughts.

Hopefully someone here has a definitive answer to your question.
Many thanks for your help.
You know what it’s like at times like these: rumours abound.
I would have thought that Lenny would need to serve his apprenticeship more fully, but there you go.
FWIW: I agree with you about Ratten. Anyone before Scott or Lyon!
 

fridgeman

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I think Richardson would be a good addition to the coaching department and I think some shuffling of roles with McConnell he could fit in to work with some of the development coaches and also all the assistant coaches as many are still very inexperienced but with these things it depends if he wants to move to Sydney and not sure if he has kids at home and also how much it would cost
 

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