- Dec 27, 2016
- 26,858
- 56,844
- AFL Club
- Western Bulldogs
- Moderator
- #86
Unsolved Girls that went missing from Adelaide Oval 1973
- Thread starter footy75
- Start date
- Tagged users None
Belushi Brassiere
Team Captain
- Banned
- #51
The disappearance of eleven-year-old Joanne Ratcliffe, and four-year-old Kirste Gordon in August 1973.
The case is sometimes linked with the Beaumont Children.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappearance_of_Joanne_Ratcliffe_and_Kirste_Gordon
The case is sometimes linked with the Beaumont Children.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappearance_of_Joanne_Ratcliffe_and_Kirste_Gordon
- Dec 27, 2016
- 26,858
- 56,844
- AFL Club
- Western Bulldogs
- Moderator
- #53
On Stanley Hart, a key suspect in the abductions.
Talk about a bunker in Hart's old home that he had access to at the time and tunnels reminds me of some of the stories being told around the Beaumont children's disappearance, to the best of my knowledge after this article appeared in the press.
For a year from March 1973, Hart had unrestricted and unmonitored access to the abandoned home, which featured a large underground bunker, The Advertiser can reveal.
The bunker, an air-raid shelter with two entrances and large enough to fit at least four adults, was described as “very good” by Hart’s sister, Ella. It is understood to have been filled in some time before 1975, after the disappearance of the girls.
Convicted paedophile family member Mark Marshall, in a 2007 confession to the Mullighan Inquiry into children in state car, also suggests his “Poppa Stan” had taken a hat and a coat from “grandad’s house” to wear at the footy that day.
Identikit images of the suspect closely resemble Hart’s appearance at the time.
Police confirmed Hart was a key figure in their investigation of the case last year. Over a number of days in October and December, they searched his Yatina property and excavated two deep wells for clues in the cold case.
Despite nothing being found in the search, police have not ruled Hart out of the investigation.
A KNOWN child abuser revealed, a decade after their disappearance, that he saw Joanne and Kirste with their abductor;
THE same man was an avid North fan, lived close to Prospect Oval and had the shell of a car buried in his backyard to which access tunnels were regularly dug.
www.adelaidenow.com.au
Talk about a bunker in Hart's old home that he had access to at the time and tunnels reminds me of some of the stories being told around the Beaumont children's disappearance, to the best of my knowledge after this article appeared in the press.
For a year from March 1973, Hart had unrestricted and unmonitored access to the abandoned home, which featured a large underground bunker, The Advertiser can reveal.
The bunker, an air-raid shelter with two entrances and large enough to fit at least four adults, was described as “very good” by Hart’s sister, Ella. It is understood to have been filled in some time before 1975, after the disappearance of the girls.
Convicted paedophile family member Mark Marshall, in a 2007 confession to the Mullighan Inquiry into children in state car, also suggests his “Poppa Stan” had taken a hat and a coat from “grandad’s house” to wear at the footy that day.
Identikit images of the suspect closely resemble Hart’s appearance at the time.
Police confirmed Hart was a key figure in their investigation of the case last year. Over a number of days in October and December, they searched his Yatina property and excavated two deep wells for clues in the cold case.
Despite nothing being found in the search, police have not ruled Hart out of the investigation.
A KNOWN child abuser revealed, a decade after their disappearance, that he saw Joanne and Kirste with their abductor;
THE same man was an avid North fan, lived close to Prospect Oval and had the shell of a car buried in his backyard to which access tunnels were regularly dug.
No Cookies | The Advertiser
- Dec 27, 2016
- 26,858
- 56,844
- AFL Club
- Western Bulldogs
- Moderator
- #54
I've just merged the threads with the original so hope this doesn't read too bumpy.
I think in later football venues, the Sanfl addressed the security concerns. Football Park had state of the art camera systems from what Ive been told.
I would imagine The AO abductor would have been to a few games at the venue. But on the day may not have even paid for a ticket, as the gates are flung open after half time. and most likely he scored a park close by.
its not that a cold case! there is still hope yet.
I would imagine The AO abductor would have been to a few games at the venue. But on the day may not have even paid for a ticket, as the gates are flung open after half time. and most likely he scored a park close by.
its not that a cold case! there is still hope yet.
there is always hope, johnymac, certainly the unwillingness of the saca oval officials to broadcast to the crowd that two girls were missing had consequences, les ratcliffe never let that fact go, and over the next few years lobbied strongly for change, which i believe came about circa 1976 when it was mandated by government that such announcements had to be made asap upon a message received that someone was lost/missing, im not so sure the abductor had a park close by, as there was a final sighting some 90 minutes after the girls went missing of a man and two girls in bonython park, on foot, hard to imagine he wouldve parked a car that far away, irrespective of whether the crime was planned or spontaneous
I wonder what happened to the reading glasses that spilled out of the abductors pocket, it was said to be picked up by the lolly seller.
Moving towards bonython park, you would imagine the abductor had accomodation in that direction. And not taken his car/van on the day, possibly indicating the abduction was not premeditated. other sighting suggest they were moving toward the zoo, but they were logged a few years later and may not be reliable.
Moving towards bonython park, you would imagine the abductor had accomodation in that direction. And not taken his car/van on the day, possibly indicating the abduction was not premeditated. other sighting suggest they were moving toward the zoo, but they were logged a few years later and may not be reliable.
the lolly seller witnessed the whole thing, the glasses, and it is not clear whether they were reading glasses or sunglasses, were retrieved by the abductor, the zoo sighting was not reported to sapol until 1979 so imo it is unreliable, the lolly seller watched the abductor and the girls go out through the open gates, through the car park, and continued watching until he lost sight of them behind a tree in the southwest corner of the car park, this would be near the southern stand of the memorial drive tennis courts, so they were headed in a south west direction, which suggests bonython park, rather than the zoo area, as being the accurate final sighting
it sure is johnymac, and totally illogical for a person, again, irrespective of whether their crime was planned or spontaneous, to not be looking to jump inside a car and get far away asap, thus came about the new thinking that the abductor did not use a car or other registered vehicle at all, nor did they appear to be moving as quickly as possible from the openness of a parkland to better cover among sidestreets etc, as if on the way to a nearby property, this final sighting, which was by a young man driving his car through bonython park, confirmed that these 3 people were heading in a northerly direction
yes there are, but it makes no sense to park so far away from the oval, even an opportunistic abductor, who wouldve gone to the football not knowing or planning that they would abduct a child, ie just a footy fan, would not have parked so far away, thus if the abduction was unplanned then it's highly unlikely they wouldve still been on foot at such a distance from the oval
no, the abduction was planned, and timing was an important part of that plan
no, the abduction was planned, and timing was an important part of that plan
Belushi Brassiere
Team Captain
- Banned
- #64
I think he wanted Kirste which is why the focus on Joanne is irritating. Joanne wasn't the real target that day.
Ive ridden my bike through there a few times. I had no idea, they may have taken that same path.
Modern bike and walking paths make it easier, but I can imagine in the 70s it must have been just dirt tracks for the most part.
Its a long way away from busy roads, a purpose made escape route or just his way home? The police canvassed the Thebarton area fairly heavily, so they must have thought they were headed there.
He must have been fairly fit, as it would have been difficult carrying a 16-18kg child nearly 3kms. The way he was carrying her is important too. I don’t know how to explain it ! carrying her under his arm, maybe-“Not very paternal like”, its like he never had kids of his own.
Modern bike and walking paths make it easier, but I can imagine in the 70s it must have been just dirt tracks for the most part.
Its a long way away from busy roads, a purpose made escape route or just his way home? The police canvassed the Thebarton area fairly heavily, so they must have thought they were headed there.
He must have been fairly fit, as it would have been difficult carrying a 16-18kg child nearly 3kms. The way he was carrying her is important too. I don’t know how to explain it ! carrying her under his arm, maybe-“Not very paternal like”, its like he never had kids of his own.
- Dec 27, 2016
- 26,858
- 56,844
- AFL Club
- Western Bulldogs
- Moderator
- #66
Just a thought but carrying her under his arm keeps her from striking at his face.
- Mar 4, 2015
- 2,251
- 2,723
- AFL Club
- Port Adelaide
- Other Teams
- Central Districts
Agreed, JR was a regular at games and apparently always sat in the same area, I have no doubt she would have been watched by him in the past, however, if he wanted to take her he could have done so on any other occasion when there we're no other children to contend with. The fact that JR went missing in the company of a child much younger whom had never been to the football with her before would suggest KG was the target which presented to him on that particular day.
That they'd only just been to the toilets recently would have been enough for anyone watching closely to know that they had opportunity.
Im sure i read somewhere that JR's family always sat in the Edwin Smith stand, would i be correct in assuming this was a 'members' stand with season tickets even back then and could it then be considered that if the person who did this had been watching JR in the past, could they be season ticket holders.
Perhaps someone who followed North or Norwood or we're just familiar with how ticketing in that stand worked in the early 70's could offer an opinion on this line of thinking.
there are reasons why the focus has often been on joanne, her family, for one, were very active and vocal in both the search and lobbying for an inquiry, which didnt happen until 1979, and change in terms of laws to mandate announcements of lost/missing people at sporting events and such
you are absolutely right, kirste was the target, the lolly seller said the man had told joanne to "clear off" and a few other profanities as he headed for the gate with kirste in his arms, joanne fought back because she was a very responsible, caring young girl, and extremely brave, she promised to look after kirste and she stuck to that, like glue
the way he carried kirste shows that he didnt know the child, nor she he, also it showed his attitude, it was more like picking up a parcel than taking a child, no effort to groom or sweettalk the child, just rush up, pick up, and take off out the gate
the final sighting, which wouldve been half - 3/4 an hour later, in the park, the witness saw the man holding both girls by the hand, yet still having trouble with them, mostly joanne, trying to get away, im convinced the only way he was able to control the situation was to tell joanne that if she left he would kill kirste, thus joanne, reluctantly, went along, no doubt constantly thinking of a safe way out of it for herself, but also, for kirste
GreyCrow
TheBrownDog
- Mar 21, 2016
- 74,451
- 118,115
- AFL Club
- Adelaide
- Other Teams
- Sturt, White Sox
If as suggested Kirstie was the target and was targetted then it makes it harder for Brown to be the kidnapper.
a few reasons why come to mind
1/. As noted the path taken is more likely to be one taken by a local rather than a visitor. Most visitors would have headed towards Government House and War Memorial Drive east towards the zoo. Along the River Torrens - passing the spot Duncan was thrown in - for those interstate spot Park 12 - follow the river you see a road. That leads to the zoo. Which makes a better road to walk along
2. If the abduction was planned then Brown is again a difficult fit for a perpetrator. He didnt drive from Qld just to kidnap 2 girls - spontaneity seemed to be his method
3. If Gordon was targetted then there must have been a deeper reason and the kidnapping planned for some time .
But
If we return to spontaneity then Brown is still good. Just the path travelled makes it seem less likely
yes greycrow, i firmly believe this abduction was NOT an act of spontaneity, it was local, and it was planned, well planned, were the abductor an interstate, overseas, or even out of town visitor, then they would most likely have used a private vehicle, and had it parked much closer than the final bonython park sighting suggested, if we agree that kirste was the sole target, then, apart from not being able to get joanne to quit fighting/protecting kirste, it begs the question as to why joanne was also taken, it comes across as a split second decision, in not being able to get joanne to give up, run away, or whatever, prior to leaving through the gates, the abductor suddenly decides to turn 1 into 2, joanne's arm was taken at some stage, and she was "dragged" through the car park, this is what the lolly seller saw, of course - it looked like an adult "handling" their naughty kids, it seemed odd/a bit wrong, but not quite enough of a reason for anyone to intervene and stop it from going further, my bottom line here is that i believe the motive for kirstes, with the sudden addition of joanne, abduction was multiple in nature, and one of those was child prostitution, in cold "business" thinking, 1 child means x profits, 2 children means xx profits, and this motive i think tends to rule out the more well-known pedophile suspects, who were, almost exclusively, self satisfying abusers, and nothing more
- Mar 4, 2015
- 2,251
- 2,723
- AFL Club
- Port Adelaide
- Other Teams
- Central Districts
How do you plan for something which had never happened before, this was the first time KG had been to AO, if she was the intended target then its either a case of planning an abduction on that day and hoping to find a child in a vulnerable position which may or may not come about or spontaneity in grabbing an opportunity that presented.
I find it highly unlikely that someone who planned a random abduction would chose such a public place, nor do I believe they'd walk kilometres to get away, any form of premeditation would surely include a faster exit strategy.
I doubt this person planned an abduction on that day, but when the opportunity presented itself he took it regardless of setting or circumstance.
I find it highly unlikely that someone who planned a random abduction would chose such a public place, nor do I believe they'd walk kilometres to get away, any form of premeditation would surely include a faster exit strategy.
I doubt this person planned an abduction on that day, but when the opportunity presented itself he took it regardless of setting or circumstance.
at the actual time of the snatching, it was hardly a public place, less than a couple of people saw it happen, one of which was the lolly seller, who was on his way to or from the pay office, the others were the people jr and kg were with when the man approached, the game was on, so the crowd were all watching the action, this was behind the creswell stand, in the archway/entryway, near the gates
Belushi Brassiere
Team Captain
- Banned
- #74
Joanne refused to leave Kirste. KIRSTE WAS WHO HE WANTED. It's Kirste he scooped up like a pile of rags. Joanne would have had a better chance of getting away from him than Kirste had at age 4.
