Go Rob!

[tribey]

How many midfielders in the competition would have sleepless nights about matching up on Shirley? It's not like having a Brett Kirk chase you around all day.

So that means we should just off him for someone else, because he's not as good as Brett Kirk?

99% of taggers in the game are nowhere near Kirk's standard - but Shirley comes closer than most because like the Sydney man he's not one dimensional.

Anyone'd think Shirley was a one trick dud like Godfrey or Franchina the way some people are so eager to write him off.

 

[Crow Envy]

The way Judd uses the ball? Ok hypothetical from my impression of watching Judd over the last couple of years. To make him stuff up a possession isn't that hard - make him run flat out and his ability to find a target is almost non existant at that speed. So if you manage to do that and the ball is turned over or goes out of bounds so that there can be a 50/50 contest but he gains a stat - does this actually mean that the tagger has done a bad job because he got a kick away (therefore his possession count increased) or a good job in either helping to create a turnover or a 50/50 contest? Possession stats are not helpful in a football context to me as they are fairly meaningless without qualifications such as being a goal assist, effective, where it was gained etc? They are just simply numbers to me.

The other thing about Judd that I found very noticeable is that whenever he gets possession, he often takes off in the semi circle to the left and the other west coast players come over the block that run - this is their way of assisting him to 'break the lines' and not use his speed as they know that his ability to control his kicking at speed is not good. A smart tagger or coach should have picked up on this and try to minimise that little trick. I've noticed Judd do this numerous times against other teams but very rarely does he do it against Adelaide and I was watching for this tactic quite closely.

You have just thrown in a hypothetical and now claiming it as fact, that doesnt make sense.

Your impression of Judd must be different to nearly every other football observer there is. But hey you have seen every game thats played.

 

[tribey]

Be careful Carl, you are sure to incur the wrath of the "I love every Crows player because they are a Crows player" brigade and it might earn you a strike.

Since I've been here I've probably been the most critical poster there is.

It's not a case of being a mindless fanboy - it's a case of opening your eyes and putting your preconceived notions of certain players in the rack.

Your arguments against Shirley are baseless. You've yet to come up with one decent point other than "LOL he sucks against Judd LOL" which is rubbish.

 

[Crow Envy]

I'd argue that what's more annoying is the all too prevalent one-dimensional and baseless assessments of certain players due to pre-conceived notions of what they bring to the side.

To infer that Shirley is obsolescent because he was unable to contain Judd to less than x-amount of possessions across three games against West Coast is painfully naive.

Especially when you look a little deeper and discover that Rowan Jones racked up 36 touches in Round 2 (Judd was WCE's 8th highest ballwinner with 23; Shirley got it 15 times inc. 5 first possessions) and Ben Cousins was got 38 touches in Round 17 (Judd was WCE's 9th highest ballwinner with 19; Shirley 10 touches with 6 clearances). In the Prelim Judd actually did get top possessions for the Eagles with 28, while Shirley got 10 touches with 7 tackles - which you'd call a clear win for Judd.

So what, that's one decisive defeat for Rob out of 3 games against the premier midfielder in the game in three defeats against the Premiership side? Hardly damning evidence to tap him on the shoulder is it?

Also, if your entire argument is based on Shirley's supposed non-performances on Judd - assuming you're applying this logic evenly where's your criticism of the rest of the players who couldn't keep the likes of Jones, Cousins, Kerr, Butler, Banfield, Braun, Waters and Fletcher in check?

There are plenty of players Shirley has problems with, does West and Harvey ring a bell?

 

[tribey]

There are plenty of players has problems with, does West and Harvey ring a bell?

So now you're expanding your argument to "LOL he can't beat player X either"? (Do you actually have proof this time or are you just pulling names out of your arse? Your Judd claims turned out to be easily refutable.)

Very rarely do taggers utterly shut down players - let alone all time greats like Judd and West - if a tagger can negate a prime midfielder's output to 80% or lower of their usual output they've done a job.

 

[Crow Envy]

Since I've been here I've probably been the most critical poster there is.

It's not a case of being a mindless fanboy - it's a case of opening your eyes and putting your preconceived notions of certain players in the rack.

Your arguments against Shirley are baseless. You've yet to come up with one decent point other than "LOL he sucks against Judd LOL" which is rubbish.

I will give you another 2 points West and Harvey. How many times have these players destroyed us? Surely if Shirley was the premier tagger as has been described he should be able to curb them?

 

[macca23]

- He's only 26
- Played the last two seasons exclusively in the guts - played 48 out of a possible 49 games in this time
- Finished 3rd in Hard Ball Gets in 2005
- Finished 6th in the AFC Club Champion in 2006
- His clearance work in the guts is criminally underrated by many - when the going got tough last season Rob was one of our few onballers who didn't start downhill skiing

Forget any question of improvement, the last two seasons have shown he has improved out of sight.

He has gone from a fringe stopper to an experienced frontline midfielder who not only shuts down opponents but acts as both an in-and-under ballwinner and a link man from defence to attack.

Given his age and new-found experience he is primed to improve yet further in 2007 if we view things realistically on a J-Curve and not merely because we want to stuff inexperienced kids in the guts just because they're first round draft picks.

Shhhhhh, DT Shhhhhhhh!!

You're trying to fk up a good character assassination with the truth.

 

[Crow Envy]

So now you're expanding your argument to "LOL he can't beat player X either"? (Do you actually have proof this time or are you just pulling names out of your arse? Your Judd claims turned out to be easily refutable.)

Very rarely do taggers utterly shut down players - let alone all time greats like Judd and West - if a tagger can negate a prime midfielder's output to 80% or lower of their usual output they've done a job.

Do I really need to go through the record books and list how many times they have notched over 30 possesions against us? I would have thought you watch the games. And you havent refuted jack about Judd.

 

[tribey]

And you havent refuted jack about Judd.

No, of course I haven't.

Only that in two of the three games we played against them this year Judd was well down the list of WCE ballwinners - while Shirley got a fair chunk of it himself.

So much for your "JUDD REAMED US AND SHIRLEY DID NOTHING ROFL!!" argument.

 

[macca23]

In the Prelim Judd actually did get top possessions for the Eagles with 28, while Shirley got 10 touches with 7 tackles - which you'd call a clear win for Judd.

So what, that's one decisive defeat for Rob out of 3 games against the premier midfielder in the game in three defeats against the Premiership side? Hardly damning evidence to tap him on the shoulder is it?

Didn't Shirley tag Kerr in the PF - keeping him almost touchless in the first half??

I may be wrong but that was my recollection of it.

 

[tribey]

Shhhhhh, DT Shhhhhhhh!!

You're trying to fk up a good character assassination with the truth.

Nah, serves me right for breaking my new year's resolution not to post in here anymore!

Just as the blood pressure was returning to normal levels too...

Didn't Shirley tag Kerr in the PF - keeping him almost touchless in the first half??

I may be wrong but that was my recollection of it.

I haven't seen it since. I'm only assuming he was on Judd for the duration - but it does ring a bell given Kerr's form was better at the time.

 

[Crow Envy]

No, of course I haven't.

Only that in two of the three games we played against them this year Judd was well down the list of WCE ballwinners - while Shirley got a fair chunk of it himself.

So much for your "JUDD REAMED US AND SHIRLEY DID NOTHING ROFL!!" argument.

Shirley had no where the level of possessions as Judd, in round 17 Judd had 19 possessions compared to 10. Judd was also doubtful to play in that game because he was crook. And even if Judd was well down the list, all that shows that the rest of our midfielders are unaccountable.

But you havent refuted the West and Harvey observations have you?

And as I said earlier in one of my threads, I have stated Shirley is a good player. But not good enough if we are going to go the extra step. Would you prefer we keep the team exactly the same? How are we going to bridge the gap?

 

[Crow Envy]

Nah, serves me right for breaking my new year's resolution not to post in here anymore!

Just as the blood pressure was returning to normal levels too...



I haven't seen it since. I'm only assuming he was on Judd for the duration - but it does ring a bell given Kerr's form was better at the time.

And if that was the case Kerr run amok in the 2nd half which proves my point.

 

[tribey]

Shirley had no where the level of possessions as Judd, in round 17 Judd had 19 possessions compared to 10. Judd was also doubtful to play in that game because he was crook. And even if Judd was well down the list, all that shows that the rest of our midfielders are unaccountable.

Shirley doesn't have to get near or beat Judd's number of possessions to do a job - is that what you really think?

If Shirley holds Judd to 19 and collects 10 himself that is a massive win for our man in anyone's book.

But you havent refuted the West and Harvey observations have you?

I don't have to.

We've already established you're pulling theories out of the air - considering how off you were with your Judd calls I've no reason to believe your Harvey/West/Akermanis/McLean/Saliba/Salisbury/Whittlesea hail Marys.

And as I said earlier in one of my threads, I have stated Shirley is a good player. But not good enough if we are going to go the extra step. Would you prefer we keep the team exactly the same? How are we going to bridge the gap?

Every team needs grunts who are prepared to put their noses to the grindstone week-in, week-out for the team while the jets do their thing.

We're not in a competition of free agency where we can go out and use our financial advantage to fill our team with All-Australians - you need players who will do a job on a wage that fits nicely under your cap so you have a TEAM capable of winning a flag.

Shirley fits this bill perfectly - you get a performance week-in week-out for a price that allows us to keep our Ricciutos, McLeods, Edwards, Goodwins in the same midfield.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

So that means we should just off him for someone else, because he's not as good as Brett Kirk?

Maybe not write him off, but certainly not have Massie and Shirley in the same line up. Same as we can probably have 2/3 of Perrie, McGregor and Stevens in the same line up. But not all three.

There's too much pressure on the other players in the team if we go with too many good, honest, limited triers who have only one string to their bow.

 

[Alex99]

Didn't Shirley tag Kerr in the PF - keeping him almost touchless in the first half??

I may be wrong but that was my recollection of it.

VB was on cousins, with Kerr coming into the game under an injury cloud (leg) would have we allowed Judd to run free?

Massie didn’t play; Mattner was at half back (2 more option gone) surly we would have placed a tag on Chris Judd but who (if Robert Shirley was on Kerr)??

IIRC Shirley was on Judd and Edwards and Kerr went head to head.

 

[Crow Envy]

Shirley doesn't have to get near or beat Judd's number of possessions to do a job - is that what you really think?

If Shirley holds Judd to 19 and collects 10 himself that is a massive win for our man in anyone's book.



I don't have to.

We've already established you're pulling theories out of the air - considering how off you were with your Judd calls I've no reason to believe your Harvey/West/Akermanis/McLean/Saliba/Salisbury/Whittlesea hail Marys.



Every team needs grunts who are prepared to put their noses to the grindstone week-in, week-out for the team while the jets do their thing.

We're not in a competition of free agency where we can go out and use our financial advantage to fill our team with All-Australians - you need players who will do a job on a wage that fits nicely under your cap so you have a TEAM capable of winning a flag.

Shirley fits this bill perfectly - you get a performance week-in week-out for a price that allows us to keep our Ricciutos, McLeods, Edwards, Goodwins in the same midfield.

You were the one who said Shirley had bucket loads, I was merely pointing out he didnt. And dont forget Judd was crook, but you keep on ignoring this point.

You dont have to refute the West or Harvey claims? Because you cant. If you could you would.

 

[tribey]

You were the one who said Shirley had bucket loads, I was merely pointing out he didnt. And dont forget Judd was crook, but you keep on ignoring this point.

You dont have to refute the West or Harvey claims? Because you cant. If you could you would.

Disengaging.

Would rather argue with a bogan outside the Casino.

 

[macca23]

Shirley had no where the level of possessions as Judd, in round 17 Judd had 19 possessions compared to 10. Judd was also doubtful to play in that game because he was crook. And even if Judd was well down the list, all that shows that the rest of our midfielders are unaccountable.

But you havent refuted the West and Harvey observations have you?

And as I said earlier in one of my threads, I have stated Shirley is a good player. But not good enough if we are going to go the extra step. Would you prefer we keep the team exactly the same? How are we going to bridge the gap?

Naturally, we don't want to churn out the same team all the time if it doesn't win a flag.

Bridging the gap? It's not a big one as the PF scores indicate, and but for injury to key players in the last few weeks, one that might not even have genuinely existed.

But we do have to keep improving to remain competitive - agreed.

Our problem isn't Rob Shirley, it's not Massie, it's not Clarke, it's not Biglands, it's not Perrie or any other player who get used as whipping boys by some on this site.

Our problem is more what we don't have rather than what we do have.

The one thing that Adelaide just can't seem to produce is quality key forwards. Stick a Jonathon Brown, a Pavlich or a Tredrea in this side, and we wouldn't even be having these debates IMO.

Hopefully Sellars and Tippett along with Bock and Hentschell (if he recovers) can provide us in the years to come with those contested marking forwards we are crying out for.

Chuck in an attacking mid-fielder or two with pace on top of what we already have and that would be a nice bonus as well. Come on down, young Richard Douglas.

 

[Crow-mo]

we judge players solely on talent which determines how well they play ....

truthfully WW, that's more you than anyone else.

which is why I genuinely think you diverge from the pack on a couple of players - and can be uniform on many others. whom you perceive as being less talented must be playing worse (i.e. shirley, bode) and the more talented must be worth more (i.e. Jericho).

 

[Crow-mo]

How many midfielders in the competition would have sleepless nights about matching up on Shirley? It's not like having a Brett Kirk chase you around all day.

evidence?

otherwise your just trying to introduce fantasy hypotheticals to justify a marginal view.

 

[Crow-mo]

I will give you another 2 points West and Harvey. How many times have these players destroyed us? Surely if Shirley was the premier tagger as has been described he should be able to curb them?

Yes, I feel Shirley did a particularly poor job on Harvey in the first final against St Kilda in 2005.

as I said before, some people can try to cover up all sorts of deficiencies in their knowledge by just making stuff up. problem is, they are easily spotted and exposed.

Tolerating the intrinsically stupid just lowers the tone for everyone else.

 

[Crow-mo]

Do I really need to go through the record books and list how many times they have notched over 30 possesions against us? I would have thought you watch the games. And you havent refuted jack about Judd.

how about you go through the games you actually watched, and talk about matchups.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

They said the same thing of Michelangelo when he painted the Sistine Chapel.

Your not drawing comparisons are you

 

[WaynesWorld19]

truthfully WW, that's more you than anyone else.

which is why I genuinely think you diverge from the pack on a couple of players - and can be uniform on many others. whom you perceive as being less talented must be playing worse (i.e. shirley, bode) and the more talented must be worth more (i.e. Jericho).

I'll concede that point