Going Forward (The Future)

[Maddhew]

Rohan needs to take the next step, he has way too many poor games. The gulf between his good and bad is too wide.

 

[caesar88]

There are 2 options:
1. He performs and does well and is a part of our best 22.
2. He is dropped to the NEAFL and is an onfield coach like ROK for example and provide depth.

Although I would prefer his salary off our books, it is not that bad. We have proven that if a player is not up to scratch that they wont play.

Or the alternative and probable outcome: He does not perform well but still plays every week.

 

[doona]

Or the alternative and probable outcome: He does not perform well but still plays every week.

We make tough calls. We may have made a mistake with underdone players but Goodes/O'Keefe/T. Richards/McGlynn/etc.... we have proven that even if a player is top calibre if they are not in the best 22 they wont be in the best 22.

I believe we will use the same judgement on McVeigh

 

[caesar88]

We make tough calls. We may have made a mistake with underdone players but Goodes/O'Keefe/T. Richards/McGlynn/etc.... we have proven that even if a player is top calibre if they are not in the best 22 they wont be in the best 22.

I believe we will use the same judgement on McVeigh

In order for that to happen though he has to give up the captaincy. Otherwise he's staying in the side every day of the week. When's the last time a captain of a side got dropped?

 

[caesar88]

Rohan needs to take the next step, he has way too many poor games. The gulf between his good and bad is too wide.

He's no different to Rioli. He won the Norm Smith in 15 but in the GF before that he did FA. Rohan is virtually the same really, but unlike Cyril he's never strung a whole season together really. Rioli only hit his peak in the last few years now that he's gone uninterrupted. Have a feeling Gaz may have a breakthrough year next season

 

[Kirkswan]

In order for that to happen though he has to give up the captaincy. Otherwise he's staying in the side every day of the week. When's the last time a captain of a side got dropped?

Don't you think that Horse has a say in who is captain? I know that the team votes on it, but you can be pretty sure that Horse has a say in the leadership group and the captain. Given their no bullshit policy, wouldn't you think that if Macca wasn't pulling his weight as a player &/or the captain, either Horse or the leadership group would say so loud and clear?

I reckon that come preseason or some time over the offseason, or maybe it's already happened, that a frank and robust discussion about what exactly is needed for Macca to remain in the team will take place. And at that time, the captaincy will be discussed.

Goodsey set a precedent when he stepped down and mentored Jack into the captaincy... I think we can expect to see something like this in 2017 or 2018. Personally, I'm hoping he hands over to Parker in 2017 and concentrates on his own game for his last year(s)...

 

[Number37]

Don't you think that Horse has a say in who is captain? I know that the team votes on it, but you can be pretty sure that Horse has a say in the leadership group and the captain. Given their no bullshit policy, wouldn't you think that if Macca wasn't pulling his weight as a player &/or the captain, either Horse or the leadership group would say so loud and clear?

I reckon that come preseason or some time over the offseason, or maybe it's already happened, that a frank and robust discussion about what exactly is needed for Macca to remain in the team will take place. And at that time, the captaincy will be discussed.

Goodsey set a precedent when he stepped down and mentored Jack into the captaincy... I think we can expect to see something like this in 2017 or 2018. Personally, I'm hoping he hands over to Parker in 2017 and concentrates on his own game for his last year(s)...

Can't mentor from the NEAFL and on form that is where Macca will play the majority of next year.
Might be good for him (if he has plans to coach) and us to mentor the young kids, player/coach role in the 2's for a year.

 

[Kirkswan]

Can't mentor from the NEAFL and on form that is where Macca will play the majority of next year.
Might be good for him (if he has plans to coach) and us to mentor the young kids, player/coach role in the 2's for a year.

You don't think that if he has a good full pre-season he might have another year in him?

 

[Number37]

You don't think that if he has a good full pre-season he might have another year in him?

That's what people kept saying the whole of 2016.
Lost what little leg speed he had to begin with, pre-season isn't going to bring it back.
Is a beautiful kick with enough time and space but doesn't have the leg speed to get time and space himself anymore so will rely on getting cheapies out the back or on the outside. Not a problem against the lesser lights but against the contenders we need everyone making a contribution, winning their own ball etc.

 

[Kirkswan]

That's what people kept saying the whole of 2016.
Lost what little leg speed he had to begin with, pre-season isn't going to bring it back.
Is a beautiful kick with enough time and space but doesn't have the leg speed to get time and space himself anymore so will rely on getting cheapies out the back or on the outside. Not a problem against the lesser lights but against the contenders we need everyone making a contribution, winning their own ball etc.

You might be right, but I'm willing to wait and see once he has had that full pre-season. He really is a beautiful kick and currently it is one of the skills that is in short supply at the swans at the moment, and he has really good footy smarts as well. Contrary to the popular belief on BF that he is selfish, I don't see him that way... I think that if he and Horse decide that he is not going to cut it, he will step down and hand the captaincy over. And mentoring doesn't necessarily have to be done during the game, and can be done while playing NEAFL. Simply being available for discussion and review can be mentoring... although I must admit, I'm hoping it will be done from within the team.

Time will no doubt tell us both...

 

[GoTheSwannies]

Rohan needs to take the next step, he has way too many poor games. The gulf between his good and bad is too wide.

I really thought he'd started putting it all together in the latter part of he year until the gf knocked that one on the head.

Coaching staff really need to put work into him in being able to impact games when he's not at his best. I don't think k he has the footy iq to be able to work it out himself. So he'll need some clearly defined instructions on what to do when the ball isn't coming to him.

I'd be all for giving him a run with role on a ball magnet to learn how they inject themselves into a game.

He's a valuable weapon. But is not being utilised correctly. Whether it be his own doing or the coaching. But we can get a lot more out of him.

 

[caesar88]

You don't think that if he has a good full pre-season he might have another year in him?

If we're serious about contending we can't afford someone like McVeigh playing the bulk of the season. Sadly he's just a lot of the things we can't have

 

[Tedeski]

He's no different to Rioli. He won the Norm Smith in 15 but in the GF before that he did FA. Rohan is virtually the same really, but unlike Cyril he's never strung a whole season together really. Rioli only hit his peak in the last few years now that he's gone uninterrupted. Have a feeling Gaz may have a breakthrough year next season

As long as he does't play in the GF should we make it, he'll be fine.

History is littered with players that don't & can't perform on the big stage when the heat is on. Ballantyne, Milne to name a few & these bloke can be the difference to winning & losing but for some unknown reason leave their team one player down on the big day.
So I say leave them out next time.

 

[Kirkswan]

If we're serious about contending we can't afford someone like McVeigh playing the bulk of the season. Sadly he's just a lot of the things we can't have

Respectfully and IMO... Really? I disagree on just about all counts...

Firstly: 'If we are serious about contending' - This club has been a contender for just about the last 20 years, give or take a few. It is always serious about contending and has done a better long term job than any other club in this period, with the sole exception of Hawthorn.

Second: 'Someone like McVeigh' - Are we talking too slow? Too pointy? Too what? Cause these are his 2013 stats (AA & BSB) and 2016 stats

2013: Games 25; Goals 0.6; Behinds 0.3; Kicks 16.2; Handballs 11.4; Disposals 27.5; Marks 4.1; Tackles 3.5
2016: Games 21; Goals 0.4; Behinds 0.3; Kicks 11.9; Handballs 8.5; Disposals 20.3; Marks 3.3; Tackles 3.7

Given he had no preseason and did not play the first three games, I reckon he did alright. His stats are not too far down on his best season ever and they do not take into account his worth as captain which is not something that we can judge from the outside. He might irritate us with his pointing, but in a team that is so young and inexperienced, a few older heads have some value.

And lastly, as I have said before, if he is not good enough for best 22 or not part of plan for moving forward, then Horse will cut him... Just look at ROK and Bird.

 

[melbournehammer]

Respectfully and IMO... Really? I disagree on just about all counts...

Firstly: 'If we are serious about contending' - This club has been a contender for just about the last 20 years, give or take a few. It is always serious about contending and has done a better long term job than any other club in this period, with the sole exception of Hawthorn.

Second: 'Someone like McVeigh' - Are we talking too slow? Too pointy? Too what? Cause these are his 2013 stats (AA & BSB) and 2016 stats

2013: Games 25; Goals 0.6; Behinds 0.3; Kicks 16.2; Handballs 11.4; Disposals 27.5; Marks 4.1; Tackles 3.5
2016: Games 21; Goals 0.4; Behinds 0.3; Kicks 11.9; Handballs 8.5; Disposals 20.3; Marks 3.3; Tackles 3.7

Given he had no preseason and did not play the first three games, I reckon he did alright. His stats are not too far down on his best season ever and they do not take into account his worth as captain which is not something that we can judge from the outside. He might irritate us with his pointing, but in a team that is so young and inexperienced, a few older heads have some value.

And lastly, as I have said before, if he is not good enough for best 22 or not part of plan for moving forward, then Horse will cut him... Just look at ROK and Bird.

I think McVeigh had a season where his lack of pace was exposed on a few occasions. there is a desire to move on players as soon as they get oldish. In this context I am surprised that jack hasnt got a bit more scrutiny because i think his season was every bit as poor as mcveighs.

But i still think mcveigh is (with the exception of buddy) our best kick to a lead and our best kick to a target. As a club it will depend on what is more valuable - his lack of pace or his skills with the ball. The pre-season will reveal all i think

 

[Kirkswan]

I think McVeigh had a season where his lack of pace was exposed on a few occasions. there is a desire to move on players as soon as they get oldish. In this context I am surprised that jack hasnt got a bit more scrutiny because i think his season was every bit as poor as mcveighs.

But i still think mcveigh is (with the exception of buddy) our best kick to a lead and our best kick to a target. As a club it will depend on what is more valuable - his lack of pace or his skills with the ball. The pre-season will reveal all i think

Agreed - And I think the club will not hesitate to drop him if he is found lacking...

 

[TripleB]

As long as he does't play in the GF should we make it, he'll be fine.

History is littered with players that don't & can't perform on the big stage when the heat is on. Ballantyne, Milne to name a few & these bloke can be the difference to winning & losing but for some unknown reason leave their team one player down on the big day.
So I say leave them out next time.

Shannon Grant had two shockers in '96 and '98 GF's before winning the Norm Smith in '99. He was very young in '96, but stunk it up bigtime in '98.

As disappointing as he's been, it's not a given that Rohan 'can't' perform on the big day...

 

[Vin Rogue]

What evidence do you have that he is not respected?
I'll give you granted that he is not respected by some here on BF, but from everything I have seen or heard he seems to me to have the respect of the leadership group, the playing group as a whole, the coaches and the administration.
I'm not disputing that he is at the crossroads in regards to where he is at as a player, but to suggest that he is not respected is pure fanciful speculation.

McVeigh's ability to change the mindset and application of his team when under the pump ( last two grand finals ) has been questioned many times by the Swans supporter base. He is not cutting through. When you can no longer stick your own tackles and run to a defensive position or chase effectively - your demands of other players will ring false. Respect is born from many things....but credibility is the crunch issue. McVeigh is not the player he was in 2012. If he'd been able to show outstanding leadership capacity whilst his game fell away, then he would command my respect. That hasn't happened. His Captaincy has become such a big issue because teams just don't send their Captain to the reserves to find form and fitness. If he had not been Captain it would have been so much easier to leave him out of the line up for the big game. I do not consider my lack of respect for McVeigh's ability as a captain at the present time to be fanciful speculation. Nor is it fanciful to believe that I am on my own.

 

[Tedeski]

Shannon Grant had two shockers in '96 and '98 GF's before winning the Norm Smith in '99. He was very young in '96, but stunk it up bigtime in '98.

As disappointing as he's been, it's not a given that Rohan 'can't' perform on the big day...

Very true! Over to you Gaz!

 

[Vin Rogue]

I really thought he'd started putting it all together in the latter part of he year until the gf knocked that one on the head.

Coaching staff really need to put work into him in being able to impact games when he's not at his best. I don't think k he has the footy iq to be able to work it out himself. So he'll need some clearly defined instructions on what to do when the ball isn't coming to him.

I'd be all for giving him a run with role on a ball magnet to learn how they inject themselves into a game.

He's a valuable weapon. But is not being utilised correctly. Whether it be his own doing or the coaching. But we can get a lot more out of him.

The problem with Rohan is that his explosiveness seems to take so much out of him. He needs to work on his endurance.

 

[Tedeski]

McVeigh's ability to change the mindset and application of his team when under the pump ( last two grand finals ) has been questioned many times by the Swans supporter base. He is not cutting through. When you can no longer stick your own tackles and run to a defensive position or chase effectively - your demands of other players will ring false. Respect is born from many things....but credibility is the crunch issue. McVeigh is not the player he was in 2012. If he'd been able to show outstanding leadership capacity whilst his game fell away, then he would command my respect. That hasn't happened. His Captaincy has become such a big issue because teams just don't send their Captain to the reserves to find form and fitness. If he had not been Captain it would have been so much easier to leave him out of the line up for the big game. I do not consider my lack of respect for McVeigh's ability as a captain at the present time to be fanciful speculation. Nor is it fanciful to believe that I am on my own.

Here is a list of players that shouldn't have played in the GF because they were carrying an injury (of those we know) & "you shouldn't play anyone that isn't 100% in a GF"!

Naismith, down on his usual best - Shoulder reconstruction post season.
Buddy, down on his best, we think ankle which didn't help but - post season shoulder surgery.
Parker, down on usual best with his knee injury.
Kennedy, was his magnificent self, if not better even though he carried a knee injury into the game.
Mills, well down on his best - missed last 3 weeks with a hamstring injury.
McVeigh, down on his best but offers a different dimension as coach out there on the ground - missed previous week with a calf injury.
Rohan, well down on his game, seemed proppy but always does.

Based on the other players above that failed to perform on the day, McVeigh is the last player I would criticise as he was part of the defence that in that last quarter, was inundated with repeat forward 50 entries by the Dogs, due to the collapse of our midfield group other than Kennedy until the last 10 minutes of the lastQ.

 

[Vin Rogue]

I think McVeigh had a season where his lack of pace was exposed on a few occasions. there is a desire to move on players as soon as they get oldish. In this context I am surprised that jack hasnt got a bit more scrutiny because i think his season was every bit as poor as mcveighs.

But i still think mcveigh is (with the exception of buddy) our best kick to a lead and our best kick to a target. As a club it will depend on what is more valuable - his lack of pace or his skills with the ball. The pre-season will reveal all i think

The game is ruthless. Where do you hide a player whose pace has deserted them? You identified yourself some time ago that as Goodesie entered the twilight zone of his career, that he was often exposed by holding the ball too long, waiting for the best moment to deliver. McVeigh is doing the same thing. And whilst he seems to be one of the best kicks in the team, he is also beginning to call too frequently for cheap kicks and he can butcher the ball just as well as any swan can. If his decision making and execution were exemplary, he should be our designated kick out of the goal square. Yet he is not...and that is an area that we too often cause turnovers and get hurt bigtime. I just wonder how badly his calf injury is hindering him and the extent to which the missed pre season was something that he was unable to catch up.
With regards to Jack...valid points, except that Jack is fearless. He puts his body on the line and he tries to stick each and every tackle. When he is on...we win. He is a very good talisman of how the team fares.

 

[melbournehammer]

Shannon Grant had two shockers in '96 and '98 GF's before winning the Norm Smith in '99. He was very young in '96, but stunk it up bigtime in '98.

As disappointing as he's been, it's not a given that Rohan 'can't' perform on the big day...

I dont think he was helped in 96 by having lockett deliver a dont argue to him in the first quarter. that'd do it to anyone

 

[swansfan51]

Shannon Grant had two shockers in '96 and '98 GF's before winning the Norm Smith in '99. He was very young in '96, but stunk it up bigtime in '98.

As disappointing as he's been, it's not a given that Rohan 'can't' perform on the big day...

1998 was Shannon Grant's 4th year on a list. Gary Rohan has been on our list for 7. The average length of an AFL career is 6 years.

 

[YorshireSwan]

McVeigh's ability to change the mindset and application of his team when under the pump ( last two grand finals ) has been questioned many times by the Swans supporter base. He is not cutting through. When you can no longer stick your own tackles and run to a defensive position or chase effectively - your demands of other players will ring false. Respect is born from many things....but credibility is the crunch issue. McVeigh is not the player he was in 2012. If he'd been able to show outstanding leadership capacity whilst his game fell away, then he would command my respect. That hasn't happened. His Captaincy has become such a big issue because teams just don't send their Captain to the reserves to find form and fitness. If he had not been Captain it would have been so much easier to leave him out of the line up for the big game. I do not consider my lack of respect for McVeigh's ability as a captain at the present time to be fanciful speculation. Nor is it fanciful to believe that I am on my own.

The basis of your argument is that he is not respected within the supporter base (not disputing) but with all due respect the supporter base does not have any bearing on how an individual player is respected within the club, who captains club and thankfully and most importantly who is selected to play for the club.

I certainly value your opinion, but the club over a very long period of time has earned mine and the industries respect, and the administration and coaching panel have the credibility to be able to select the captain and team who they believe will best represent the club both on and off the field.

Nothing personal mate but unless you have access to the inner sanctum you have absolutely no idea what happens inside the four walls of the club and your opinion is based solely on what you observe from afar. The club has the runs on the board, our culture is the envy of the rest of the competition and I'll back them in to do the right thing for the club.