Going Organic & Vegan

patsmith

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Are we natural omnivores though?

I honestly don't know for sure but I recall a lot of information suggesting that our teeth, and digestive system are that of a herbivore.

It may be a case of push and pull depending which side of the argument one wishes to represent.
Other studies have also shown that the discovery of the benefits of cooking meat led to an increase in our brain size, and pretty much every development that came after (ie. agriculture and society, probably in that order).

I'm not a massive fan of the way we produce and treat animals, and I don't want to be seen as an apologist for it, but we are really the only species that can feel any empathy towards other species and consciously realise the bigger picture. We should probably use it more.
 

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Caesar

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It's surprising that people can't at least be honest in saying; I know I probably shouldn't be digesting another being but I just can't help it.
That would be closer to the truth than for us to suggest that animals were put here for us to abuse and then consume. Isn't that sort of.......logical?
Only if you work from some sort of objective morality whereby all animal life is sacrosanct for some reason.
 

HARKER

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Other studies have also shown that the discovery of the benefits of cooking meat led to an increase in our brain size, and pretty much every development that came after (ie. agriculture and society, probably in that order).

I'm not a massive fan of the way we produce and treat animals, and I don't want to be seen as an apologist for it, but we are really the only species that can feel any empathy towards other species and consciously realise the bigger picture. We should probably use it more.

There's also a strong correlation between red meat and cancer. Why do we choose not to discuss that?

Empathy and humankind. Almost an oxymoron.
Not sure most of us really understand empathy the way we say we do.
We throw out a token "That really puts things into perspective" but most of us just go on our merry self-serving way.

That's for another discussion but I wouldn't be pumping up the virtues of man too much.
 

nicky

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It's only spot on because that's your chosen side of the argument.

It's like saying Sydney is a better club than Carlton.......................Hang on. That example doesn't work. :)
No it's actually factually correct. Cows exist because we farm them.

Sadly, i'm at work and have stuff to do so can't waste time on you. Which is probably a good thing because it looks like you're just looking for attention and don't really believe what you're saying anyway.
 

HARKER

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Only if you work from some sort of objective morality whereby all animal life is sacrosanct for some reason.

Man can survive and function without the digestion of animal life. FACT.
Unfortunately animals can't because they've been built a certain way.

Some of them are built as herbivores and some are built as carnivores.
We're just not quite sure in how we're built but why would we want to know anyway? Meat tastes good and is a huge industry.
 

HARKER

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No it's actually factually correct. Cows exist because we farm them.

Sadly, i'm at work and have stuff to do so can't waste time on you. Which is probably a good thing because it looks like you're just looking for attention and don't really believe what you're saying anyway.

Why the anger? Sorry to have upset your day.
 

patsmith

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There's also a strong correlation between red meat and cancer. Why do we choose not to discuss that?

Empathy and humankind. Almost an oxymoron.
Not sure most of us really understand empathy the way we say we do.
We throw out a token "That really puts things into perspective" but most of us just go on our merry self-serving way.

That's for another discussion but I wouldn't be pumping up the virtues of man too much.
I believe it gets discussed quite a bit. Don't forget about the strong correlation between emerging from a hunter-gatherer lifestyle and the increase in human life expectancy.

I'm not trying to denigrate you or your argument, but I can't see why you would expect humans to put other animals on an equal pedestal to ourselves. What other species does this? Especially considering the evolutionary advances we've made, such as abstract thought, the ability to pass knowledge down to further generations etc. We've gotten where we are by using and manipulating the environment around us, just like all other species. We're just particularly adept at it.
 

Papa Juggs

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Humans eat meat.

People that say there was no meat around and it was hard to catch way back in the day know nothing.

If anything wild herds of stupid 4 legged beasts were more abundant than cavemen. Yes they would've been hard to catch but humans are smart. We set traps, we ambush, we build weapons, we have great endurance.

If all it takes is to hide in the bushes until an animal walks past before pelting it with rocks and spears I'm sure early humans could have figured it out.
 

patsmith

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Humans eat meat.

People that say there was no meat around and it was hard to catch way back in the day know nothing.

If anything wild herds of stupid 4 legged beasts were more abundant than cavemen. Yes they would've been hard to catch but humans are smart. We set traps, we ambush, we build weapons, we have great endurance.

If all it takes is to hide in the bushes until an animal walks past before pelting it with rocks and spears I'm sure early humans could have figured it out.
It could also be argued that our intelligence developed very rapidly because we engaged in these activities, as well as the benefits that eating meat provided. You don't have to be too clever munching on grass all day...
 

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HARKER

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I'm not trying to denigrate you or your argument, but a. I can't see why you would expect humans to put other animals on an equal pedestal to ourselves. What other species does this? Especially considering the evolutionary advances we've made, such as abstract thought, the ability to pass knowledge down to further generations etc.b. We've gotten where we are by using and manipulating the environment around us, just like all other species. We're just particularly adept at it.
Why denigrate another species though?
Some may use such arguments such as "Would you offer a seat on a train to a cow"
That's not really addressing the argument though and is quite frankly an insult to their own intelligence (?)

Again if I asked you, "Would you choose to kill something that has a heart to pump blood, a mind to think and be self aware, legs to walk, a mouth to eat, arms to use, eyes to see, an inbuilt love to raise and take care of their children and the ability to feel pain the way we do etc. what would the natural answer be?

We've conditioned ourselves to believe our own bulls**t and slaughter our fellow earthly inhabitants because we have a right?

History always proves to be the best judge so what do we think our views will be in 500 years time for our deeds of today? Think about it without getting angry.
 

Caesar

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Again if I asked you, "Would you choose to kill something that has a heart to pump blood, a mind to think and be self aware, legs to walk, a mouth to eat, arms to use, eyes to see, an inbuilt love to raise and take care of their children and the ability to feel pain the way we do etc. what would the natural answer be?
This is mostly sentimental garbage. Only a handful of species have demonstrated self awareness, which is still a long way from the concept of secondary consciousness. And secondary consciousness is what allows you to project wholly human concepts like 'inbuilt love' onto creatures that have no understanding of it.

We've conditioned ourselves to believe our own bulls**t and slaughter our fellow earthly inhabitants because we have a right?
Rights are a human concept. When you make the rules, you can do whatever you want.
 

HARKER

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a. This is mostly sentimental garbage. Only a handful of species have demonstrated self awareness, which is still a long way from the concept of secondary consciousness. And secondary consciousness is what allows you to project wholly human concepts like 'inbuilt love' onto creatures that have no understanding of it.

b. Rights are a human concept. When you make the rules, you can do whatever you want.
a. Really? Sentimental you say? Howe about humane?

b. Really? Hitler had such a human concept? Not all of us quite liked it but some did.
What exactly are you arguing for or against Caesar. Make a stand and say something.
 

Caesar

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I am saying that I respect your value system whereby you place animal life on a high pedestal, and perhaps you could consider respecting other people's value systems that differ slightly.

It is very reasonable to say (for example) that the idea of rights stems from a social contract, and animals are fundamentally incapable of entering into such a contract, therefore there is no reason they should benefit from its protections.
 

HARKER

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I don't care for ones opinions. I just care for the truth.
We may not know exactly what that is but when we start drawing a line through history and its progression some things start to become obvious.

We can choose to lie to ourselves or accept the sad truth but at least let's make a conscious choice and not be governed by what we're told to believe.
Whichever way I look at things our current practices would not be part of a better world. They just can't be. It's just not logical.

Animals entering into a contract? FFS, shouldn't we fight for the underprivileged, the uneducated, the whatever etc etc.
No. Not what it comes to another species as we hold the whip hand and we'll do whatever we see fit to do to an inferior species. Not cats and dogs though because they're our friends but those pigs and cows and chickens..............we'll fix them.

Simple question again. Do you think we'll be consuming animal life in 500 years time?
 

Caesar

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I don't care for ones opinions. I just care for the truth.
'Truth' and 'morality' don't even belong in the same conversation.

Simple question again. Do you think we'll be consuming animal life in 500 years time?
Who knows? Who cares?

If we're not, it'll be one of the more impressive cases of logical bootstrapping in human history.
 

HARKER

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'Truth' and 'morality' don't even belong in the same conversation.
Who knows? Who cares?

If we're not, it'll be one of the more impressive cases of logical bootstrapping in human history.
I care. I'm interested. Why wouldn't I be?

Does life stop after my existence or are we again basing our arguments on the strength of our self-importance and the here and now?

Sort of selfish isn't it but then again that fits the argument, so I guess I understand.
 

kfc1

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Of course it's possible but run a line through it using history as the guide. Please Explain!!!!

All throughout history, we have not stopped eating meat. Therefore, extrapolating to 500 years from now, we will still be eating meat (unless we eat it all and there's none left).

Evolution will ensure that vegans etc will gradually die out.
 

HARKER

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Because of all the places you could get your sense of morality from, "try and guess what people 500 years in the future will think" has to be one of the worse ones I've heard.

Build your own values system, FFS.
Caesar. You're not thinking straight.
A historian would be able to build up a model.


Table out what you're saying and what you really think and I'll respond.

Not sure where you are coming from any more.
 

HARKER

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All throughout history, we have not stopped eating meat. Therefore, extrapolating to 500 years from now, we will still be eating meat (unless we eat it all and there's none left).

That's funny.

50

Evolution will ensure that vegans etc will gradually die out.
That's funny.
50 years ago we were pulling down trees like there was no tomorrow and laughed at the tree huggers.....today?

50 years ago we laughed at those hippies trying to save those stupid whales and dolphins......today?

500 years from now we may not be laughing at those stupid vegetarians that chose not to consume a fellow earthling.....
 

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