Going Organic & Vegan

kfc1

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That's funny.
50 years ago we were pulling down trees like there was no tomorrow and laughed at the tree huggers.....today?

50 years ago we laughed at those hippies trying to save those stupid whales and dolphins......today?

500 years from now we may not be laughing at those stupid vegetarians that chose not to consume a fellow earthling.....

You asked for a historical model, I gave you one.

We have changed our mind about a few other things therefore we will stop eating meat is a very low bow to draw.

Note that we are still cutting down trees, killing whales and dolphins...
 

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Caesar

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Caesar. You're not thinking straight.
A historian would be able to build up a model.


Table out what you're saying and what you really think and I'll respond.

Not sure where you are coming from any more.
I don't think you really understand what rights are. I've explained the philosophical basis of a social contract, being one example of a rights framework that leads to a different conclusion than the one you're espousing, and you didn't even really grasp what I was talking about.

Where do rights stem from? How is your theory of rights more objectively correct than other people's? Have you even thought about the answers to these questions?

Your posts so far are mostly a jumbled collection of appeals to sentiment and half-formed ideas underpinned by your own conviction that history will be on your side, therefore validating your position as absolute truth. It's not really a coherent position and that is what I am attempting to point out to you.
 

HARKER

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I don't think you really understand what rights are. I've explained the philosophical basis of a social contract, being one example of a rights framework, that leads to a different conclusion than the one you're espousing, and you didn't even really grasp what I was talking about.

Where do rights stem from? How is your theory of rights more objectively correct than other people's? Have you even thought about the answers to these questions?

Your posts so far are mostly a jumbled collection of appeals to sentiment and half-formed ideas underpinned by your own conviction that history will be on your side, therefore validating your position as absolute truth. It's not really a coherent position and that is what I am attempting to point out to you.

Rights? Human rights you mean? Haven't those human rights changed and moulded to societal needs even in the past hundred years?
Women didn't have rights not so long ago. Blacks didn't have rights until relatively recent times.
Which rights are we talking about as they seem to shift and adapt to the way we shape them. May come a time when animals have rights? No?

Still have no idea on your position but here's mine. Consuming animal flesh is barbaric whichever way we sell it.....and the meat industry do sell their services well.

So the question is very simple: Are we at right to be slaughtering and consuming our fellow earthlings? And the answer is.............................YES/NO
 

Caesar

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To answer the question you have to arrive at a definition or right and wrong, and it appears you haven't really thought about how you frame that concept. So any answer is meaningless.
 

Papa Juggs

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People somehow think that something dying so you can live is anti-enlightenment.

I think this is a false premise.

Perhaps we should destroy all carnivores. They are killing other animals so they might live. We should decree it as wrong.
 

patsmith

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My god, HARKER has really jumped the shark since I checked this thread last. We use to (and still do) chop down whatever trees we wanted. Now we have tree farms...

EDIT: if you're going to use Hitler as an example, shouldn't you also a acknowledge he was a vegetarian?
 

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Showbags

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I'm a vegan now for 12 months and can honestly say that I have had no ill effects since I started and am actually feeling very good. I don't take any supplements and just make sure I eat a nice variety of nuts, seeds, grains, beans, vegetables and fruits every week.

From the philosophical point of view, the question I asked to myself is "if I can survive and indeed thrive on not eating animal products then why wouldn't I?" If I was a hunter gatherer living in some remote part of the world and needed meat to survive then that is different. But us lucky enough to live in Western society with our modern convenience stores and shops do have a choice. We are not obligate carnivores and do not require animal products to sustain life.
 

Showbags

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Yeah but animals taste awesome!
Hey I agree. I loved the taste of meat, would drink cows milk by the gallon and loves fried or poached eggs in the morning.

But if we let pleasure or convenience be the basis of what is right or wrong then by that logic murderers, rapists or rock spiders should be able to continue to do what they do as they gain enjoyment from those horrible acts, or slavery should still be legal as it is convenient for their owners to not have to pay them wages for their labour.

Obviously I'm not in any way trying to convey that people that use animal products are on the same level as the others. But personally I find the production process involved in the producing of sentient animals for meat, the producing of dairy milk or the production of eggs absolutely abhorrent and on a par with the other horrendous acts that are going on in the world.

And if we forget about the ethical argument towards animals for a minute there are plenty of other reasons to stop eating animal products. Animal agriculture is a huge contributor to greenhouse gas emissions and environmental problems around the world. Also the food we feed to our animals could comfortably feed the starving people of the world. Also it would help stop the huge obesity and diabetes epidemic that is sweeping the Western world.
 

nicky

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And if we forget about the ethical argument towards animals for a minute there are plenty of other reasons to stop eating animal products. Animal agriculture is a huge contributor to greenhouse gas emissions and environmental problems around the world. Also the food we feed to our animals could comfortably feed the starving people of the world. Also it would help stop the huge obesity and diabetes epidemic that is sweeping the Western world.
I absolutely agree with this which is why i buy organic / bio dynamic meat and pay a premium for it. The problem is that there's too much cheap food and we cannot see the real cost anymore.

If you stick to buying food from farmers markets or ethical butchers then I don't have a problem with humans consuming meat. Consuming meat is responsible for our species being so advanced. Having said that I don't think humans should eat too much meat - we still need to eat alot more veggies than meat. :)
 

The Coup

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Started buying organic food recently, cause its available and reasonably priced.

Not sure if its actually healthier, but I reckon it tastes better. That could be placebo effect though.
 

red+black

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I pretty much stopped eating red meat when I was about 12. Never been much of a fish eater, but I did eat a lot of chicken over the years. Never really got into turkey until a few years ago. Spiritually and philosophically, not eating meat is the right choice for me, or more specifically, adopting a plant-based diet (not a huge fan of the word 'vegan'). I am not an animal activist.

But I have the lazy gene and being 100% plant-based is not easy for me.
never consume again - red meat
have very rarely - fish, turkey, (animal) milk and cheese
have more regularly - chicken

It's a constant work in progress. I am consuming more greens and it's not a chore. But when I get cravings I often turn to chicken or bad veg foods rather than good starches. The key for my "success" is dealing with my "down periods" better. When my mind is in the right place, things are good in all areas of my life. But when I'm unhappy, depressed or lacking motivation or inspiration, I can make bad choices, and those periods can be prolonged. But I'll get there.
 
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Long Live HFC

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"organic" produce is the biggest ******* crock of s**t. this modern tendency to equate "natural" with "good" is stupid beyond words.
 

kickazz

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"organic" produce is the biggest ******* crock of s**t. this modern tendency to equate "natural" with "good" is stupid beyond words.
pretty much - but in general organically grown food tends to be better for the environment (though not always, The Checkout on the ABC did a good segment on this), but not better or worse for human health.
Home grown vegetables taste better than supermarket, but I think that has less to do with man-made chemical interference than ratio of produce to available soil nutrients.

And correct, natural=good is something to be wary of. I agree that over refining and processing of foods can lead to an imbalance of nutrients, especially increases in salt and sugar and decreases in fibre. But give me a frozen tv dinner any day over a death cap mushroom. ;)
 

Papa Juggs

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"organic" produce is the biggest ******* crock of s**t. this modern tendency to equate "natural" with "good" is stupid beyond words.
Some people don't want to consume herbicide and pesticide and the organisations which test for these substances need to take their cut to stay in business which adds to the cost.

Mostly being "organic" just means lots and lots of manure.
 

Long Live HFC

Norm Smith Medallist
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Some people don't want to consume herbicide and pesticide
Some people are stupid and don’t understand chemistry, nor do they realise “organic” produce uses organic pesticides. Nor do they appreciate the higher rates of disease they are at risk from in certain industries due to things like the lack of immunisation for animals.
and the organisations which test for these substances need to take their cut to stay in business which adds to the cost.
and yet organic produce remains the more expensive alternative.
Mostly being "organic" just means lots and lots of manure.
If by “manure” you mean “bulls**t”, then yes we agree.
 

red+black

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So anyone seen any DVDs in this area? I have Food Matters; Hungry for Change; Forks Over Knives; Fat, Sick & Nearly Dead; Speciesism; PlanEat; and Vegucated. Few others I plan to get before Christmas: Fat, Sick & Nearly Dead 2; GMO OMG; Food, Inc; Crazy Sexy Cancer; Super Juice Me; Carb-Loaded - A Culture Dying to Eat; King Corn; and Fed Up.


 

perthblue

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Can somebody explain the connection between organic meat and humane treatment of animals? Are they not killed in exactly the same way?
 

Hawk Dork

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Hard to go organic and vegan unless you use manure,its pretty hard to collect manure out in the fields without a meat or egg industry supplying it.
On a smaller scale of production maybe using horses and humanure, green manure and compost teas.....is keeping horses allowed under vegan rules ???
 

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