Just don't think he wants it enough
Prediction Gold Coast Suns Best 22 for 2018
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Just don't think he wants it enough
Sunraysia
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- Mar 16, 2015
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Agree - not a clearance player - far better on the outside where his kicking skills can be utilised.
Sunny_
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Lach was a phenomenal contested ball winner in juniors. He just doesn't have the body to compete there at AFL level though. Might have some stints on ball, but suspect he will be primarily outside to deliver well inside 50.
Sure-maybe- if he actually ever works out how to ruck
Tommy has a skillset issue with his core duty- which is hitting the ball first in a ruck duel.
ie it's non-existent
Always rated him higher around the ground and a half decent kick for goal too
SunsBhoy
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I hope your right hasn’t shown it yet , is still slight of body , would be nice to see him bulk up a little.
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Nicholls is still a decent backup. He has never really cracked the upper echelons of AFL rucks, but few do in the first part of their 20s. He is a great tackler, most of his possessions are contested and he wins 1%ers. For some reason he always plays well against the Lions. I think he has more potential and with a coach like Matty Primus there's development on tap.
Witts has benefitted from the changes to the 3rd man in rule because his style is to use deft touch to lay the ball at the feet of guys like Ablett, who owed a lot of his good games this season to Witts dominance. Witts also relies on outmuscling opponents at throw-ins and ball ups, but the 3rd man in rule did him no favours there. If Witts can maintain his workrate throughout games he will improve, but perhaps he needs to be benched more often and 2MP given more time on the ball.
Primus has been with us for 4 yrs.....surely that's enough time to improve his development...not sure if it's the pupil or the teacher....
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Well, obviously it has improved because in that time Nicholls played 45 games and got the better of some of the best ruckmen in the game. He also got beaten a lot, but made up for it with superior play. Stefan Martin is a ruckman who can compete with anyone in the hitouts and consistently outplays his opponents around the ground offering value by collecting disposals and contributing more than most ruckmen. He didn't even debut in the AFL until he was Nicholls age! It is uncommon for a ruckman to debut at 20 and they always play their best footy in their late 20s early 30s. Aaron Sandilands had similar stats to Nicholls in his early 20s, then his figures doubled as he fulfilled his potential.
At the very least, you'd hope Nicholls can show improvement in a similar vein to Matera's season this year. Getting a draft pick that can be spent on an Academy player is far better than having to delist him at the end of next year. See how Crossley develops first, but you never give away ruck talent cheaply. Look at what happened when all 3 of our rucks got injured at the same time this season - the coach got sacked and we lost every game with Keegan Brooksby getting thrashed and Gaz refusing to play.
Mate, I don't want to get into an argument with you, as you seem to have a good grab on things, but just looking at his stats from 2015-16, he played the same number of games and got the same number of hitouts and his disposals were very close to being the same. Whilst I agree that his work around the ground is OK, his Ruckwork hasn't improved in 2 yrs when, as he ages,it should be improving, and with Primus, an ex-Ruck, as his coach. So, is it the teacher or is it the pupil.
I hope he does fulfil his potential, but I have my doubts......
I hope he does fulfil his potential, but I have my doubts......
To me the biggest issue with Nicholls development is he hasn’t got physically stronger.
His legs for example are like twigs.
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Why say maintain his workrate but then bench him? Makes no sense
And for the record Nicholls is not AFL level, he has had enough time to come on but he nevers comes back in shape and he hasnt improved in his ruck work or being a viable marking option, Witts is the best ruckman we have had by a long shot
The report I get is Tommy often suffers from bouts of Trent McKenzie’itus too often. Loves the life and perks of an AFL player but struggles with committing to the professional standards required. Has been questioned over his game preparation and his rehab when injured. Has the potential but yet too fully apply himself 100% over a season. New coach and footy department hierarchy will hopefully shake him up.
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FB Kolodjashnij Leslie Joyce
HB Harbrow Day/Thompson Hanley
C Martin May Weller
HF Young Lynch Hall
FF Ainsworth Wright Ah Chee
Foll Witts Swallow Lyons
Int Miller Barlow Sexton Fiorini
Emg Bowes Brodie Lonergan
Yep I put May in the guts, how crazy is that? I feel like he's too valuable for the Suns to have him one on one in the backline all the time. Have him in the midfield 30% of the time, gets a bit of mongrel and size in there to lead the team, then 70% of the time have him as a loose defender. This relies on having one of Day or Thompson fit.
- if both Thompson and Day are fit, put Day on the bench in place of Sexton
- everyone in the forward line knows how to score, which is a nice change, as well as Martin and Weller
- don't let Hall go in the midfield
HB Harbrow Day/Thompson Hanley
C Martin May Weller
HF Young Lynch Hall
FF Ainsworth Wright Ah Chee
Foll Witts Swallow Lyons
Int Miller Barlow Sexton Fiorini
Emg Bowes Brodie Lonergan
Yep I put May in the guts, how crazy is that? I feel like he's too valuable for the Suns to have him one on one in the backline all the time. Have him in the midfield 30% of the time, gets a bit of mongrel and size in there to lead the team, then 70% of the time have him as a loose defender. This relies on having one of Day or Thompson fit.
- if both Thompson and Day are fit, put Day on the bench in place of Sexton
- everyone in the forward line knows how to score, which is a nice change, as well as Martin and Weller
- don't let Hall go in the midfield
That is crazy! May is a top two KPD in the game.. its one of only three positions (Lynch and Witts) that are certain and shouldn't be touched.. as for Hall in the fwd line, its been done to death, he needs open space in front of him so he can break lines...
But i like crazy ideas, i would like to try Hall in the back line... make him accountable.. Hall is a strong tackler, he has it in him, he just doesn't apply himself.. if he could learn to prioritize this part of his game he could move into the midfield and be dominant.. meanwhile in the backline he could replace Saad with those dashing and damaging runs... its risky as hell because Hall can be loose as fu"k but lets have a look at it in the preseason comp... Hall could be Elite but probably never will be!
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I love it! But you'd never actually name May at centre, just make the positional change when you know you've got the match ups down back covered. I also like the idea of Hall playing a little closer to goal because that's where he can do most damage.
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You're misreading what I said. I didn't mean bench him in the old fashioned sense when a player was replaced for the whole game, I meant bench him in time on of each quarter to give him fresher legs. He's currently active for 85% of each game, which is nuts but becoming the habit of teams choosing the single ruck option. Peter Wright can handle a few more hitouts and has the motor to do the extra work. Even an 80/20 split would give Witts that little extra to finish off games and getting extra versatility from 2MP can only be a good thing as he may well become a Salmon type ruckforward double threat.
As for Nicholls, it really doesn't matter that you don't believe he is AFL standard or that his commitment is questionable. His record speaks for itself and his development is a good as can be expected for his age and injury history. Would you say Matthew Leuenberger is AFL level? Tom Bellchambers? Nic Naitinui? Well, the AFL players ratings have them all within a few places of Witts and Nicholls, ranked 19th and 24th. The way the ratings are calculated is over the past 2 seasons, which is a fair way to compare all of the players I mentioned because each missed a season's worth of football due to injury, form and/or suspension. Bellchambers had 14 games, Nicholls 15 games, Witts 20 games, Nic Nat 15 games and Leuenberger took 27 games to get as good as Witts.
Witts is on an arrow upward, yet Nicholls remains top 25 despite not playing AFL for over a year when his ranking was 12th.
19th Jarrod Witts Gold Coast Suns Ruck 257.7
20th Nic Naitanui West Coast Eagles Ruck 250.1
21st Matthew Leuenberger Essendon Ruck 223.1
22nd Scott Lycett West Coast Eagles Ruck 204.6
23rd Nathan Vardy West Coast Eagles Ruck 195.1
24th Tom Nicholls Gold Coast Suns Ruck 188.2
25th Billy Longer St Kilda Ruck 187.7
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Letting May run in the midfield is a brilliant idea, just as Lynch needs to be let loose up the wings. It means they can exert their leadership by showing their skills up the ground and winning some quality ball with their marking and tackling. With the versatile Day returning and the emergence of Leslie and Wright, the Suns have more options to release May and Lynch to wreak havoc.
As for Hall, there is no doubt about the talent as the guy has been consistently ranked in the AFL top 50 midfielders and he has had plenty of best on ground performances. I'd like to see him on a wing or half forward flank with stints in the midfield. I can see value him being played along the halfback line, but there is already too much competition for those spots and his disposal wouldn't suit. Better off having him at the end of a chain of disposals and let him run the ball into F50 to goal as he is at his best when he can just pin his ears back and blaze away. I always prefer watching him put it over the goal umpire's head than over his team mate's head. Turn a potential flaw into a strength. Kicking a few bags will get his confidence up while sharing midfield responsibilities with the veterans will see him used as the bullet rather than the gunpowder.
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Rance is a fantastic one on one defender, but often they'll use Astbury and grimes to free him up so he can be more damaging. May could play the same role.
Let's face it with Hall, the bloke can kick a goal which is something the Suns don't have much of, so get him near the goals. Less cheap crappy possessions up the ground, more opportunity to sneak out the back and have a few shots on goal per game. He is unaccountable but he should be able to learn to put on pressure in the forward 50, it's just small second and third efforts, where he can see the reward of a goal. Whereas for him in the midfield, running down to the backline to help out I'm guessing he doesn't bother because the reward is just a kick or handball.
Yep, think of it like Roughead a few years ago, would start the first 5 of so minutes of each quarter in the center. Throw his weight around ruffle a few feather, takes some pressure off the lighter bodies
Sounds good in theory and its all stuff that has been broached ad nauseum on this board..
But Hall has played a lot fwd in the first part of his career and he was bordering on terrible.. he should be a good fwd for all the reasons you have stated but he is much better when he has space in front of him.. when he can beat a man and use his pace to burst into space and damage the opposition. When he played fwd he would beat a man and run into congestion and turn it over badly.. he would lose confidence and forget to tackle for a month or two..
As for May, he is IMO the best KPD in the game, you don't mess with that... I don't think he has the ability to be an effective mid consistently and certainly any where near how effective he is down back..
Its nice to dream though.. i once thought it was a good idea too but then i woke up..
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With Jack Leslie, Rory Thompson and the option of Sam Day rotating back, Steven May in 2018 will be able to play on the ball as needed and double team major threats like Buddy Franklin. It also mens that he can intercept across the backline and launch the team back into attack with more regularity, or set free Jarrod Harbrow and Pearce Hanley. Sure he's a great Key Position Defender, but so what? He would probably be a decent Key Position Forward by now if coaches had persevered and he wasn't so desperately needed down back.
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I think you're focussing on Hall's flaws too much and forgetting that he has the ability to bust games wide open. He's an easy fall guy because he takes massive risks and it often doesn't come off. When it does come off and ends in him streaking away to kick a goal, it's off to an ad break and everyone forgets about how freakishly talented he is. Play him on the wing or a flank, rotate him with Jack Martin, bench him if he isn't applying defensive pressure in F50 and, probably most importantly, feed him the ball on the run in space as often as possible.
As for your appraisal of May, I think you are seriously underestimating the potential the guy has. When he's not suspended for trying to straight out murder Lions players, he is a top-ranked KPD, however, he is sometimes exposed down back when there aren't supporting tall KPDs. The China game was an obvious one where Port knew Rory had withdrawn and they exploited the weakness. May couldn't have done anything differently, but had Day and Leslie been in the team and Thompson had gone down then the result would have meant May could have shut down Port's forward line with the support.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that May becomes a run-with midfielder, but that he can be used as a pinch hitter, switching into the middle when the game needs some disruption. When he is able to play loose across the backline and get to contests or intercept forward entries, he is sensational. But when he is stuck on the opposition's key forward his influence can be nullified. Hoping to see more of the old Rory and the continued development of Leslie.
I'm not forgetting s**t dude, I'm not seriously underestimating anything either! I think you need to realise that other people have opinions too..
There is a lot of people on this board that have watched every Suns game and have well thought out and reasoned analysis on our players, game style and just about eveything else to do with the Suns..
Since you have come to this board you have had a lot say, a lot of pretty good but in my humble opinion your a little to hasty to chop other people's opinions down..
I'm pretty sure you're not always right..
Anyway you have made me take an early break, see you all in the the new year Suns fans.. i hope you all have a good xmas, well most of you!
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Listen, mate, I didn't just drop out of the sky one day. I came to this forum for discussion and debate, which is what I've found and most of it is informative and entertaining. But your obstinate, condescending, parochial, heavy handed commentary is generally just 2-speed - you either like it or hate it. It doesn't bother me and you usually have pretty good reasons for your opinions. What you will find, however, is that I'll always call out those who rate everything awesome or dreadful with nothing in between. Forums like this can become echo chambers, with the same extreme opinions repeated. Take your break and we'll chat again in the New Year when there's actually stuff to discuss.
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