Review Good/Bad: Inaccurate Crows vs St Kilda

[Jeffcrowe]

I noticed it last year and it's the same this year, TT gets pushed off the line when going for a mark incredibly easily. Just can't hold ground. I'm hoping it will improve as he gains strength.
He also doesn't have the instinct to crash packs and throw himself at marks. It just isn't his game. I can see it improving a little, but not enough to make him a key forward.
When he does approach a mark it is almost always one handed. Even the mark he took was a one handed attempt that then fell to his chest.

It makes the question of what position to play him a bit tricky at this stage. He really should be played to his strength - which is a combination of size and agility. A high half forward role makes sense for now.

Long term (once he has 50+ games under his belt) however, I suspect his best position is going to be as a ruck/forward. His best performances at SANFL level before being drafted were in the ruck. Playing as a ruck that becomes an extra mid, while also having the ability to push forward and be dangerous there, will be his best role.

Definitely the case re being pushed off the line but it’s not uncommon for a 2nd year key position / tall . He will be a beast eventually and be much stronger

It is hard to tell whether he will end up more a ruck or a forward …. I’m going to say ruck mainly and forward without too much confidence

 

[Geoffa32]

McAdam looked as good out on the lead as anyone and had clean hands overhead

Just makes a few errors but playing better than last year

McAdam is our most improved player. And that comes down to fitness and work rate. Massive upswing in how busy he is on the ground.

hey shorty will remember I have been critical of him for being lazy. And he was. Great leap at the ball, offered nothing else.

I think Burgess has had an impact here

On SM-A325F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[DJ75]

That’s coaching though. Nix is on record as wanting consistent and deep entries. Our forward strategy is more about defending turnovers than using the best offensive option.

Tactically, our coaching is horrendous. Our set up around stoppages has been awful at times this year.

Likewise, our set up as we exit the D50 is unbelievably bad. The amount of times we had the ball in possession at half back from a mark, looked up and had absolutely nothing to kick to was incredible. The problem is, it isn't player errors, they are doing exactly what they are coached to do.
What tends to happen:

• Short kick to CHB. Player takes mark runs back and looks. Nothing obvious on offer. Looks down the wing as no leads are made in the corridor (coaching decision).
• Our 3 key forwards do NOT come up to the next contest. One goes wide to the boundary a kick and a half away. The other two stay deep. The two deep are by themselves. No smalls around, so that if by some miracle we do get through quickly, we have no crumbing players anyway) It leaves a hole, right where we are going to land the ball. The two players there? McHenry and Murphy. Seriously. They are the target by design (I watched our key forwards closely as they ran to set positions and pointed to each other about where to stand). The hope is that we keep the opposition key defenders away and create a contest on the wing.
• If we manage to find another short target somewhere near the middle, we might occasionally take it. The next kick then is not an attacking kick in towards the key forwards. No. Crazy stuff. Our next kick is as wide as possible to the one key forward who went wide earlier. The kick goes as close to the boundary as possible so that we can hopefully knock it out and have a stoppage. Just as well our midfield is absolutely elite.

So from an attacking position on half back, our entire plan is to try to create a contest and hope we can get a stoppage. Genius!

And we wonder why our forwards struggle....

Our entire coaching plan at the moment is to minimise any damage, hope we drag the opposition down to our level and scrap a low scoring win.

Must be so fun playing in our team.

 

[DJ75]

McAdam is our most improved player. And that comes down to fitness and work rate. Massive upswing in how busy he is on the ground.

hey shorty will remember I have been critical of him for being lazy. And he was. Great leap at the ball, offered nothing else.

I think Burgess has had an impact here

On SM-A325F using BigFooty.com mobile app

Agree with this (although might be too much credit to Burgess at this stage).
McAdam has improved his efforts considerably. He's clearly in our best 22 now. Credit to him for doing the hard work.

 

[Golumless]

I noticed it last year and it's the same this year, TT gets pushed off the line when going for a mark incredibly easily. Just can't hold ground. I'm hoping it will improve as he gains strength.
He also doesn't have the instinct to crash packs and throw himself at marks. It just isn't his game. I can see it improving a little, but not enough to make him a key forward.
When he does approach a mark it is almost always one handed. Even the mark he took was a one handed attempt that then fell to his chest.

It makes the question of what position to play him a bit tricky at this stage. He really should be played to his strength - which is a combination of size and agility. A high half forward role makes sense for now.

Long term (once he has 50+ games under his belt) however, I suspect his best position is going to be as a ruck/forward. His best performances at SANFL level before being drafted were in the ruck. Playing as a ruck that becomes an extra mid, while also having the ability to push forward and be dangerous there, will be his best role.

Probably time to take a deep breath and not overcomplicate this. Thilly has a very easy transition to his best role, centre half forward (and if we want Thilthorpe to be the superstar he threatens to be, he needs to be playing that role exclusively). One where he can roam when need be (which is the biggest strength in his profile), on top of being that primarily leadup forward. We've already seen the potential with this and how effective it could be via the SANFL where Thilthorpe averaged 16 disposals/3 goals in the three games he played before injury this year (he did spend a little bit of time in the ruck as well, but we should be looking at ditching that part of his game, he's too valuable to ruck).

I partially agree with high half forward being his best role at the moment whilst Tex is here, however, this is also a good chance to round out his game a bit and let him learn how to survive as a deeper option before moving him towards that CHF role. Lets not sway away from a good learning opportunity, especially as we're not in the finals hunt and Thilthorpe working out strategies to survive in a deeper role at an elite level could be the difference between Thilthorpe being the best key forward in the league or in the conversation for the top 5-10.

Thilthorpes best performances were in the ruck in the SANFL because a) West Adelaide are absolute garbage and b) West ruck got injured.

 

[CrowBloke]

Butterfly effect though. If we're 10.9 we can play a much different final quarter to if we're 6.13. We can go lockdown mode and play a different style to being in an arm wrestle.

Fair point. Please disregard the hypothetical "if we were 10.9 ..." which distracts from the point I was making.

What remains is that the Saints scored 8.2 in the last, about which posters have not commented, well, not that I saw/read anyway. Nicks made no mention of it in his presser.
The poor goalkicking was bad enough and has been discussed extensively, but the Saints increased their 3/4-time score by 125% in one quarter, 40 ==> 90, doubling their scoring shots in the process .

So, needing to see what happened, I watched the last quarter again:
Within 30 seconds from a clearance and a dubious free kick to a strong mark, King goals.
After 2.5 minutes, Keays has 4 kicks but with no forward impact, 3 rebounded straight away. Crows under pressure.
@ 16.25 to play, Crouch snaps a goal, preceded by a soft free kick against Tex on the wing, but no free to Adelaide a few seconds later for what looked like the same action in their F50. Head high contact to Doedee ignored.
At the bounce, Berry is tripped/legged. No free kick.
Rachele makes good effort, free kick, Crows goal from 52m.
Soon after a grubbed clearance by Keays, Rachele is held about 30m out, left HF, no free kick.
@14.24 to play, it's clear that Dawson is loose, last man in defence.
@13.37 Wood leads clear of Smith, marks, goals.
Strong defensive pressure from Saints result in multiple forward entries then a goal. Lead by 11, Crows under siege.
10.47 to play, Saints have had 8 I50 to 3.
10.15 to play, Tex misses relatively easy snap about 30m out.
8.50 to play, Rowe bullet to Tex on lead, goal from 30m out. Crows down by only 4 points.

@7.15 to play, Dawson goals from good mark, Crows LEAD by 2 points, appear to have stemmed the tide, anybody's game. Looking back, that's a strong fightback.

6.20 to play, poor (hasty) Berry kick straight to Saint, ball returned for goal to Membrey mark/goal. Saints by 4.
3.43 to play, King mark/goal.
@3.20, McHenry freed, leans back on kick, misses from 30m out. Significant miss in context of game.
@ 1.40, awful kick by Hinge straight to Saint, results in Ryder goal. Game over. Saints by 15.
Saints get another goal from next clearance, Marshall.

OK, so I wanted to say that the Saints overwhelmed the Crows by kicking 8.2 in the last, but that's not the case. The Crows were well in it until the McHenry miss with 3.20 to play.
What undid them was certainly the poor goalkicking all game, and basic skill errors in the last (also "all game", maybe?).

To me, that's on the players --- not structure, or game plan --- and whether that's from inexperience or a lack of precision/polish, it's something basic they need to fix asap.

 

[rocket18]

FWIW

View attachment 1406814

Dawson three possessions forward of centre - what a waste, pathetic coaching.

I fear the safe and easy option is to play him loose in defence to sure us up

But ideally I’d only do that when a team has a run on to slow momentum or at end of quarter to protect a lead

Yep, F grade coaching, send Dawson back as the loose man.

Dawson is not just highly-skilled; he has an excellent footy brain.
I remember in his Presser that Nicks said (paraphrasing) Dawson started on a wing but when he sent a runner out to move him, Dawson had all ready moved himself.
Worked out the situation himself, and moved himself.
Smart.

Looking ahead, way ahead, he might develop into a good Coach. Meanwhile, he's our greatest asset, from a helluva deal.
Imo it compares to the Crows getting McLeod after Freo (I think) showed only lukewarm interest, well, except that Sydney wanted badly to keep Dawson.

Dawson is a smart footballer, but you don't need to be a rocket scientist to know Nickys go to move is "move Dawson back".

 

[LeftyLuke]

That’s coaching though. Nix is on record as wanting consistent and deep entries. Our forward strategy is more about defending turnovers than using the best offensive option.

Nick's whole coaching plan is risk minimisation. That will only lead to one outcome.

 

[hey shorty]

Nick's whole coaching plan is risk minimisation. That will only lead to one outcome.

Kinda.

We do try to hit the corridor and move the pill on quick. I think he WANTS those hit up kicks to leading forwards, the deep kicks are more comfortable with the footskills of most of our side

 

[FR0GGY]

Agree. He’s a bit Ben Hudson, hunts the body and the ball. Not afraid to lay his weight on the opposition

yes, can absolutely see that.

 

[Mutineer]

They key thing for me is that he doesn't stop at the tap. He hunts the ball after the tap as well and sometimes gets the clearance. He can get a ground ball and kicks well to position. None of the above is ROB.

Certainly not going as well as last year but the only thing Strachan is superior in is kicking, the rest he has Strachan covered. Some of ROB'd contested marking dropping back a kick behind the play was absolutely elite last year.

 

[Sanders]

Dunno about that...McDonald was excellent against Carlton...10 marks 3 goals 3 behinds. May be that they were concentrating on Buddy, but I thought McDonald presented very well and marked pretty much everything that came his way. Hope you're right and TT gets to that sort of output in the 1's.

And what about that do you think makes a meaningful case that we picked the wrong guy?

Saying a guy had an ok game doesn’t define anyone’s career

 

[Sanders]

This is how bad we are, we’re this but worse

 

[CrowBloke]

1) Weight does not equal to power. Particularly, you’d want core strength, and this will usually take 3-4 years in the AFL system to be comparable to most of the AFL opponents.
2) Max King is in his 3rd year, and he’s seeing significant benefits with improved strength. Also he’s had the benefit of playing out over 2 whole AFL seasons. RT has only played essentially 1 whole AFL season, so much too early to judge him as a full forward.

1) I reckon (am not expert, at all) Thilthorpe looks like he needs to muscle up and grow into his height. Not bulk, necessarily, but core strength for sure. Looks a bit soft, to me.
2) While I hated the loss to the Saints, King impressed me. King still has the build of a praying mantis, but the timing of his leads and jumping is much better. While his height is an obvious advantage, he's developed strong, clean hands as well.
I counted 3 of his 6 goals from strongly contested pack marks, really well-timed.
By contrast, EH, Fogarty and even Tex do not pack-mark as well as him. In fact, Tex looks more and more like he's caught under the ball and often goes up with one hand; have you noticed?

 

[Dangarman]

No surprises in the coaches votes, except maybe Brodie Smith

33

Brodie Smith

Age

32

Ht

189cm

Wt

88kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

19.5

5star

K

12.3

5star

HB

7.2

4star

M

4.2

4star

T

2.1

4star

MG

500.1

5star

D

17.1

4star

K

12.6

5star

HB

4.5

3star

M

3.5

3star

T

2.3

3star

MG

438.9

5star

D

17.2

5star

K

10.8

4star

HB

6.4

4star

M

3.8

4star

T

3.6

5star

.

King was definitely a right royal pain in the Butts hole.

10 Max King

12

Max King

Age

23

Ht

202cm

Wt

100kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

7.3

2star

K

4.7

2star

HB

2.6

2star

M

2.7

3star

T

0.7

3star

G

1.4

5star

D

7.3

2star

K

4.7

2star

HB

2.6

2star

M

2.7

3star

T

0.7

1star

G

1.4

5star

D

8.0

2star

K

5.2

2star

HB

2.8

3star

M

2.8

3star

T

0.6

3star

G

1.4

5star

(STK) 5/5
7 Callum Wilkie

44

Callum Wilkie

Age

28

Ht

191cm

Wt

88kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

14.2

4star

K

9.8

4star

HB

4.4

3star

M

4.5

4star

T

1.8

4star

MG

221.3

3star

D

12.6

3star

K

9.0

4star

HB

3.6

2star

M

2.6

3star

T

1.4

2star

MG

223.1

3star

D

14.0

4star

K

8.4

4star

HB

5.6

4star

M

4.6

5star

T

2.2

4star

MG

170.0

3star

(STK) 4/3
6 Bradley Hill (STK) 4/2
3 Brodie Smith

33

Brodie Smith

Age

32

Ht

189cm

Wt

88kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

19.5

5star

K

12.3

5star

HB

7.2

4star

M

4.2

4star

T

2.1

4star

MG

500.1

5star

D

17.1

4star

K

12.6

5star

HB

4.5

3star

M

3.5

3star

T

2.3

3star

MG

438.9

5star

D

17.2

5star

K

10.8

4star

HB

6.4

4star

M

3.8

4star

T

3.6

5star

(ADEL) 3/0 or 1/2
3 Jordan Dawson

12

Jordan Dawson

Age

27

Ht

191cm

Wt

91kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

17.0

4star

K

11.4

4star

HB

5.7

4star

M

4.8

5star

T

2.8

4star

CL

0.6

3star

D

15.7

4star

K

10.9

4star

HB

4.9

3star

M

2.9

3star

T

2.0

3star

CL

0.4

3star

D

11.8

3star

K

7.8

3star

HB

4.0

3star

M

5.0

5star

T

3.0

5star

CL

0.6

3star

(ADEL) 3/0 or 1/2
1 Jake Soligo (ADEL) 1/0

 

[skam85]

I think you’ve misread a post


Thilthorpe will never be as good as max king was the point

And Thilthorpe as a seperate issue needs to get stronger in the contest ( I don’t care how much he weighs , he’s not strong yet in the contest which is not surprising for a 2nd year tall )

When he gets stronger in contest Thilthorpe will be an absolute beast ….. not max king level of talent but still a very good player

TT will be King's level if he had undersized defenders playing on him every week

 

[skam85]

Jacky boy's been quiet about Dawson's position I see George Kramer

 

[Anzacpaul]

How good is Hamill? Always loved the way he plays and I think he's starting to hit his straps.

Soligo impressive again. Dependable.

Doedee very good one again. Found form and now looks like an elite defender.

He always looks one incident away from another concussion to me. He reminds of the ragdoll physics you'd see in early GTA games.

 

[LeftyLuke]

1) I reckon (am not expert, at all) Thilthorpe looks like he needs to muscle up and grow into his height. Not bulk, necessarily but core strength for sure. Looks a bit soft, to me.
2) While I hated the loss to the Saints, King impressed me. King still has the build of a praying mantis, but the timing of his leads and jumping is much better. While his height is an obvious advantage, he's developed strong, clean hands as well.
I counted 3 of his 6 goals from strongly contested pack marks, really well-timed.
By contrast, EH, Fogarty and even Tex do not pack-mark as well as him. In fact, Tex looks more and more like he's caught under the ball and often goes up with one hand; have you noticed?

Tex is going to go one of two ways from here. The kicking dropping off is the major concern for me as It's something we haven't seen before. It's his most important asset and if it drops off so does our scoring especially when we are running our offence through him. The club needs to spread our entries more evenly amongst our forwards as clubs know we go to Tex most of the time.

 

[CrowBloke]

This is how bad we are, we’re this but worse

I think the first is an excellent point.

"Effort" is a non-negotiable, inherent element of every player's (six-figure, ffs) contract.
It's implied and expected. It's a must-do factor of every player's game:
"If you sign this and play for us, we expect a 100%, committed effort from you every time you train/play".
It's part of their job.

I think people confuse "effort" with "outcome".

When a player jumps high over a pack and spoils an opponent's mark forcing an out-of-bounds stoppage, there's usually warm applause from supporters and one will often hear people say "Good effort".
To Tim Watson (and me, and probably you, too) that effort is expected. What they're actually applauding is the outcome, the achievement, which only comes from committed effort.

Effort + high-skill-level application = achievement.
It's the second part of the lhs that is missing with several of the Crows.
This is a point I'm repeating, but the game is not called "Effortball" or "Tryball". It's FOOTball and our footskills are among the worst in the League.

I disagree with this, though:
""That is just a terrible thing, that's so condescending isn't it?"".
It's not condescending.
It comes from having one's expectations lowered so far that players are praised for doing what they're paid for (effort), when the actual achievement is next to zero.
That's what's happened to us (supporters) after the failures of the last 4-and-a-bit years. The Crows are losing games they should win, but are praised highly for "trying". Over-praised, imo.

We have several players who are praised for "trying" --- EH and Fogarty, for example.
Hey, they get paid to "try", well-paid. Like many others in here, I'm waiting for them to achieve.

 

[CrowBloke]

No surprises in the coaches votes, except maybe Brodie Smith.

King was definitely a right royal pain in the Butts hole.

10 Max King (STK) 5/5
7 Callum Wilkie (STK) 4/3
6 Bradley Hill (STK) 4/2
3 Brodie Smith (ADEL) 3/0 or 1/2
3 Jordan Dawson (ADEL) 3/0 or 1/2
1 Jake Soligo (ADEL) 1/0

I'm surprised there was no Coach-love for Berry. Happy to see Soligo get a mention.

 

[BunjiMac]

Tex is going to go one of two ways from here. The kicking dropping off is the major concern for me as It's something we haven't seen before. It's his most important asset and if it drops off so does our scoring especially when we are running our offence through him. The club needs to spread our entries more evenly amongst our forwards as clubs know we go to Tex most of the time.

This has been happening a fair bit with Tex for last number of years.

He starts well when full of energy, but when the grind of AFL catches up with him, he falls away, including his kicking.

He needs a rest to freshen up as he is no spring chicken.

It's also good for our future development, im not concerned about the result.

Walker is not the saviour and the more he is relied upon, the bigger the hole we will need to dig ourselves out of.

 

[Crow till I die]

TT will be King's level if he had undersized defenders playing on him every week

or if he had the opposition ruck kick it to him 20 metres out from goal

 

[Crow_Magnon]

And what about that do you think makes a meaningful case that we picked the wrong guy?

Saying a guy had an ok game doesn’t define anyone’s career

I think the first is an excellent point.

"Effort" is a non-negotiable, inherent element of every player's (six-figure, ffs) contract.
It's implied and expected. It's a must-do factor of every player's game:
"If you sign this and play for us, we expect a 100%, committed effort from you every time you train/play".
It's part of their job.

I think people confuse "effort" with "outcome".

When a player jumps high over a pack and spoils an opponent's mark forcing an out-of-bounds stoppage, there's usually warm applause from supporters and one will often hear people say "Good effort".
To Tim Watson (and me, and probably you, too) that effort is expected. What they're actually applauding is the outcome, the achievement, which only comes from committed effort.

Effort + high-skill-level application = achievement.
It's the second part of the lhs that is missing with several of the Crows.
This is a point I'm repeating, but the game is not called "Effortball" or "Tryball". It's FOOTball and our footskills are among the worst in the League.

I disagree with this, though:
""That is just a terrible thing, that's so condescending isn't it?"".
It's not condescending.
It comes from having one's expectations lowered so far that players are praised for doing what they're paid for (effort), when the actual achievement is next to zero.
That's what's happened to us (supporters) after the failures of the last 4-and-a-bit years. The Crows are losing games they should win, but are praised highly for "trying". Over-praised, imo.

We have several players who are praised for "trying" --- EH and Fogarty, for example.
Hey, they get paid to "try", well-paid. Like many others in here, I'm waiting for them to achieve.

Some fair points. I think the other thing about effort / trying (trying hard) is that's only sustainable some of the time. The best sides find a way to win, even when they've not played to their best. They have highly skilled players who make the lesser teams pay for their mistakes. The analogy I'd use is someone like de Minaur in tennis. He hasn't the physical attributes to win easy points such as the big servers. He then has to rely on running everything down, and often falls in quarter / semi finals because I think he's physically gone. I see our current team in a similar vein this year and last - worked our butts off to win some early games, and things fell our way...we looked physically tired in the GWS game, and have struggled since - especially with so many younger players and a few oldies like Tex who has also fallen away a little and may need to be managed.

The trick is to refresh the squad at the right intervals, and bring in some of the guys who are knocking on the door - and see what they've got at the higher level, and know when to rest certain individuals. The other thing is that the game-plan must have a couple of gears - i.e. know when a grind is the way to go, but also look for the positive attacking game when it's on. Against the aints, we did have some good passages, but let ourselves down with our finishing once again - all these things take a toll on confidence levels, and we eventually dropped out collective heads.

 

[John Who]

Max King is not a player who dominates through strength. He never has been

Anyone claiming otherwise is an idiot

- Aussie Rules Rookie Me Central (formerly AFL Draft Central)

The number one AFL/W Draft news site

central.rookieme.com

Cute. Except the fact no one claimed King dominated with just his strength. Nice trolling tactic.

1) I reckon (am not expert, at all) Thilthorpe looks like he needs to muscle up and grow into his height. Not bulk, necessarily, but core strength for sure. Looks a bit soft, to me.
2) While I hated the loss to the Saints, King impressed me. King still has the build of a praying mantis, but the timing of his leads and jumping is much better. While his height is an obvious advantage, he's developed strong, clean hands as well.
I counted 3 of his 6 goals from strongly contested pack marks, really well-timed.
By contrast, EH, Fogarty and even Tex do not pack-mark as well as him. In fact, Tex looks more and more like he's caught under the ball and often goes up with one hand; have you noticed?

Max King in the recent match, reminds me of Tippett at his best. Both have the ability to jump at the highest point, taking advantage of their height, likely outmarking most tall defenders.

The issue I had was people comparing King and RT directly with the weight is unfair, because it’s the core strength that is the key. This comes naturally with more training and body maturing. RT is still a young body despite his current size and weight, and naturally his core strength isn’t comparable right now to most defenders or other older forwards. With a stronger core strength, he can plant his body more to his advantage and defenders less able to shift him off the line of the ball, therefore will improve his marking chances.

Tex on the other hand, he is more a leading forward and better ground skills. Kicks to his advantage would be more suited to lower kicks rather than high ball entries, in which there were likely plenty in most of our recent games. Tex reaching one handed in the instance you pointed out, I think it was because it was kicked at a high point where it was likely to be spoiled, unlikely for him to be marking it.