Good Luck Bocky

[WaynesWorld19]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
Can we draft someone like that.

And don't you dare suggest Kenny McGregor as trade bait

You said we wouldn't get a top 10 pick - what do you think now

 

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by Wayne's-World
You said we wouldn't get a top 10 pick - what do you think now

I don't think we will get a top 10 pick.

Even if we do get that offer I don't think we can afford to trade him. In fact we could really do with 2 Ken McGregors ATM

 

[macca23]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
I don't think we will get a top 10 pick.

Even if we do get that offer I don't think we can afford to trade him. In fact we could really do with 2 Ken McGregors ATM

Of course we won't trade Kenny for a draft pick. That would be madness, because what you would be trying to get with the draft pick is another Kenny!! A young KPP who can be a regular part of the spine, at either end.

 

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by macca23
Of course we won't trade Kenny for a draft pick. That would be madness, because what you would be trying to get with the draft pick is another Kenny!! A young KPP who can be a regular part of the spine, at either end.

Spot on.

I would have a red hot go at Ottens at the end of the year and if he continues his form of late he could turn out to be a bragain pick up. Whether as a ruckman or FF he would be a fantastic addition to the club.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
I don't think we will get a top 10 pick.

Even if we do get that offer I don't think we can afford to trade him. In fact we could really do with 2 Ken McGregors ATM

Gee how opinions fluctuate depending on win or loss

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Originally posted by macca23
Of course we won't trade Kenny for a draft pick. That would be madness, because what you would be trying to get with the draft pick is another Kenny!! A young KPP who can be a regular part of the spine, at either end.

Lets play devils advocate for a minute.
Question; is Kenny going to be one of the great CHF or CHB of the competition?
Question; is Hentshell providing more attacking options with flair from CHB?
Question; Is Watts going to be a better CHF than Kenny?

Just being develish

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

Originally posted by Wayne's-World
Lets play devils advocate for a minute.
Question; is Kenny going to be one of the great CHF or CHB of the competition?
Question; is Hentshell providing more attacking options with flair from CHB?
Question; Is Watts going to be a better CHF than Kenny?

Just being develish

I would like to think we would have no problems fitting in Kenny, Trent & Fergus in out side. We need to keep McGregor as we need solid KPP's. Would only ever consider trading him in the unlikely scenario we were trading up for a better KPP.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Originally posted by Kane McGoodwin
I would like to think we would have no problems fitting in Kenny, Trent & Fergus in out side. We need to keep McGregor as we need solid KPP's. Would only ever consider trading him in the unlikely scenario we were trading up for a better KPP.

You would trade for a top 10 trade on the belief you would be getting a better CHF.
Hawthorn did it with Croad to get Hodge.
In all of these things you have to give something of value to get even something better.
Problem is the AFC is not prepared to make the tough calls - other clubs are.
Not a problem today after a win, but watch the subject re-surface should we have more losses.

 

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by Wayne's-World
Gee how opinions fluctuate depending on win or loss

Come again

Where have I changed my opinion regarding Ken McGregor??????

You seem to be willing to get rid off Ken McGregor to get a top 10 pick. Please tell me what does a top 10 pick guarantee you?????? Will it guarantee you a player that in th elong run will be as good as Ken McGregor or better??????

For a club that has patched up spine that chops and changes week in week out, it would be the dumbest thing in football if we trade one of our constants in that spine. A bloke who has played 80 odd games of AFL footy and has improved in each of his last 3 years and is still only 23 years of age. Players like Ken Mcgregor are the ones that you are supposed to KEEP not give them up for a draft pick that doesn't guarantee you a thing.

Giving up what we did for Carey was a BIG mistake, trading Ken McGregor would be even BIGGER mistake unless you are absolutely raping the other team. Lets face it we are not blessed with a lot of quality KPP and while Hentschel provides more rebound out of the backline, and while Watts will be our CHF for the next few years, we still need a KPP or 2 of Kenny's ability.

There is nothing that I have seen so far that suggests to me he will not be a good FB. Even if he does stay at CHB is there a rule anywhere that says that you can't have 3 talls in your backline especially since one of them is capable of playing shorter than he is.

The idea is to keep quality players and build around them, not to give them away in a hope that we MIGHT get something better. Its OK to take more risks but those risks must be calculated risks.

 

[Nige_Bix]

The only person I'd trade Kenny for is Pavlich!

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
Come again

Where have I changed my opinion regarding Ken McGregor??????

You seem to be willing to get rid off Ken McGregor to get a top 10 pick. Please tell me what does a top 10 pick guarantee you?????? Will it guarantee you a player that in th elong run will be as good as Ken McGregor or better??????

The idea is to keep quality players and build around them, not to give them away in a hope that we MIGHT get something better. Its OK to take more risks but those risks must be calculated risks.

The comment was a generalised view, not aimed at you specifically.
2 weeks ago we had a team of duds, now after a couple of promising games, those duds are suddenly good players (again generalised view)
When it gets to creating a spine like Brisbanes, the decision on KPP players can be Marginal, in that it can be determined by the way you want that position played, the physicality, flair, length of kicking, leadership .....
Brisbane decides to trade the AFL's best tap ruckman in Clarke, gutsy decisions by Mathews based on how he wanted his ruckmen to play the game.
I remember Picken being classed a good CHB by Collingwood, but club outsiders pointed out his deficiencies (slow, short kick), was that a good decision by Collingwood to build their defence around him? we don't know, but results probably indicate not.

I'm not saying trade Kenny!
What I am saying is as a KPP, can Adelaide build a Brisbane like dynasty around him? like a Brown, leppitsch, Knights, Brereton.
Can we build a dynasty around Bassett as our FB, if not then someone has to make some tough judgements.
If your not going to tank a season, you have the choice to hang around mid table in mediocrity, or make some tough decisions to try and get some better "franchise" players.
You have said yourself we don't have many we are prepared to trade for top 10 draft choices. The ones who may be suitable, we want to keep, so are we saying mid table mediocrity is our future? and rely on luck to secure good future Crows players.

 

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by Wayne's-World
The comment was a generalised view, not aimed at you specifically.
2 weeks ago we had a team of duds, now after a couple of promising games, those duds are suddenly good players (again generalised view)
When it gets to creating a spine like Brisbanes, the decision on KPP players can be Marginal, in that it can be determined by the way you want that position played, the physicality, flair, length of kicking, leadership .....
Brisbane decides to trade the AFL's best tap ruckman in Clarke, gutsy decisions by Mathews based on how he wanted his ruckmen to play the game.
I remember Picken being classed a good CHB by Collingwood, but club outsiders pointed out his deficiencies (slow, short kick), was that a good decision by Collingwood to build their defence around him? we don't know, but results probably indicate not.

I'm not saying trade Kenny!
What I am saying is as a KPP, can Adelaide build a Brisbane like dynasty around him? like a Brown, leppitsch, Knights, Brereton.
Can we build a dynasty around Bassett as our FB, if not then someone has to make some tough judgements.
If your not going to tank a season, you have the choice to hang around mid table in mediocrity, or make some tough decisions to try and get some better "franchise" players.
You have said yourself we don't have many we are prepared to trade for top 10 draft choices. The ones who may be suitable, we want to keep, so are we saying mid table mediocrity is our future? and rely on luck to secure good future Crows players.

Trrading Kenny McGregor does NOT guarantee you that future. He is a very good KPP and those are as rare as rocking horse ****. You don't trade them unless you are raping the other team. I think in Mcgregor and hentschel we have 2 key defenders that we can build a backline around. Why break that up?????? We have a promising CHF in Watts. If Krueger's back comes good we have a good FF option. Our spine for the future actually looks pretty good. As i said in the other thread Kenny is capable of playing as a FB.

Bassett I would get rid off in a second. What we need to do is add to what we already have not rip apart something good that we have. Kenny has been a revelation for us in the last couple of years and by far our best KPP. All this and he is still only 23. you won't see Saints trade Penny and I see Penny and Kenny as very similar players.

I would much rather trade the likes of Biglands, Burton, Welsh, and Goodwin before I would trade Kenny.

As I said trading Kenny for draft pick is a VERY risky propositon. If we are trading him for a proven player that is un upgrade on Kenny then I would go for it but trading for a draft pick is way too risky.

The number of failed top 10 picks in the last 5-6 years is pretty big. A top 10 pick doesn't guarantee you player as good as or better than Kenny.

 

[macca23]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18

Bassett I would get rid off in a second. What we need to do is add to what we already have not rip apart something good that we have. Kenny has been a revelation for us in the last couple of years and by far our best KPP. All this and he is still only 23. you won't see Saints trade Penny and I see Penny and Kenny as very similar players.

I would much rather trade the likes of Biglands, Burton, Welsh, and Goodwin before I would trade Kenny.

Agree with you Stiffy. Write Kenny into the list in ink - he's going nowhere. Our one KPP who can play the 4 key posts back and forward.

I'd trade Bassett for another player or a decent pick. He pinch-hits at FB as does every other FB we've ever had in our relatively brief history. That along with the 2 wings are the 3 positions we've never had guns in.

The other 4 you've got there are tradeable but you'd want to get a good return for all of them with the possible exception of Welsh. He enjoys his social life far too much for my liking and IMO it is affecting his footy.

 

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by macca23
Agree with you Stiffy. Write Kenny into the list in ink - he's going nowhere. Our one KPP who can play the 4 key posts back and forward.

I'd trade Bassett for another player or a decent pick. He pinch-hits at FB as does every other FB we've ever had in our relatively brief history. That along with the 2 wings are the 3 positions we've never had guns in.

The other 4 you've got there are tradeable but you'd want to get a good return for all of them with the possible exception of Welsh. He enjoys his social life far too much for my liking and IMO it is affecting his footy.

I just think you don't trade a young quality KPP for a very risky pick. While top 10 pick gives you a good crack at best youngsters there is absolutely no guarantee that pick will turn into better player than you are giving up. We are in no position to make those sort of risks. I would just take 2 players in the last few years where they have been awaste of top 10 pick (through no fault of their own). Ryan Fitzgerald was pick 4 and Luke Molan was pick 9. Thats 2 quality picks one of them in the strongest draft ever wasted. Both blokes were highly rated but both failed miserably.

Bassett would draw some interest especially from teams going after a premiership. He would be a good 3rd tall for a team like Sydney or WC. hell he would be #1 FB at West Coast.

I totally agree that we have never had gun FB or wingman in our time in the comp. We seem to have found a potential wingman in Reilly and possibly Jericho. although, i would like Jezza closer to goal.

Welshy's trade value would be pretty low after 2 injury riddled years. The others would have some value but you wouldn't want to make any "uncalculated risks".

We all seem to rave on about Watts, Maguire, Petrie and the likes but all those blokes were not picked up in top 10 and all those are the players that you build the team around. Port got Chaplin at #15.

A good recruiter (read judge of talent) will pick you up a gun in top 30. There is some luck involved in this but it is mostly a lot of hard work and a lot of research.

Just for the record, Mal Michael, IMHO best FB in the comp was a rookie list selection.

 

[DaveW]

Originally posted by macca23
That along with the 2 wings are the 3 positions we've never had guns in.

Greg Anderson?

 

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by DaveW
Greg Anderson?

But we didn't really got him at his best.

 

[DaveW]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
But we didn't really got him at his best.

One of our five All Australians in 1993.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

Originally posted by Wayne's-World
You would trade for a top 10 trade on the belief you would be getting a better CHF.
Hawthorn did it with Croad to get Hodge.
In all of these things you have to give something of value to get even something better.
Problem is the AFC is not prepared to make the tough calls - other clubs are.
Not a problem today after a win, but watch the subject re-surface should we have more losses.

Hawthorn traded McPharlin & Croad for Hodge. Freo not the Hawks won the trade IMO, paricularly considering Freo traded back Croad for 1st round pick. I would not trade a 23 yo permanent KPP (& our best KPP!) for a draft pick. As I said before, I would only consider trading Kenny, if we were trading up for a established KPP.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

Originally posted by DaveW
One of our five All Australians in 1993.

Was very lucky to be AA IMO. Agree with Stiffy, in that he played his best footy for the Dons.

 

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by Kane McGoodwin
Hawthorn traded McPharlin & Croad for Hodge. Freo not the Hawks won the trade IMO, paricularly considering Freo traded back Croad for 1st round pick. I would not trade a 23 yo permanent KPP (& our best KPP!) for a draft pick. As I said before, I would only consider trading Kenny, if we were trading up for a established KPP.

Freo absolutely r*ped Hawks on that trade. They got McPharlin and Croad for #1 pick. Freo got a gun that they really wanted in McPharlin and got a marketing tool in Croad. A couple of years later they trade Croad back to Hawks for a pick that lands them a gun in the making in Dunn.

Freo's trading and drafting since Schwab became CEO is exceptional.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
Trrading Kenny McGregor does NOT guarantee you that future. He is a very good KPP and those are as rare as rocking horse ****. You don't trade them unless you are raping the other team. I think in Mcgregor and hentschel we have 2 key defenders that we can build a backline around. Why break that up??????
I would much rather trade the likes of Biglands, Burton, Welsh, and Goodwin before I would trade Kenny.

As I said trading Kenny for draft pick is a VERY risky propositon. If we are trading him for a proven player that is un upgrade on Kenny then I would go for it but trading for a draft pick is way too risky.

The number of failed top 10 picks in the last 5-6 years is pretty big. A top 10 pick doesn't guarantee you player as good as or better than Kenny.

All fair positions to take.
Have heard of Kenny been referred to as tradesman-like, versatile, good mark, but star? No! for a media driven sport, who like to jump on players and push them up to star status far too readily, who has suggested Kenny to be a future star and backbone of the Crows team?

Top 10 is broad, 1st 5 almost guaranteed top player, next 5 well better than 2 out 3 make it. We got Watts at 14, Angwin at 7 (yes he had real talent), I would suggest a top 5 would not be risky, or worth the risk.

Brown I think was #4, gee if I could do that trade, knowing we could get someone of that calibre?
IMO Hentschell is shaping up as a good CHB, Kenny at FB, doesn't appeal, due to his lack of attacking flair, and inability to run through any lines. He doesn't leap at the ball, but runs to the spot, props, and hopes his good hands are strong enough.

He reminds me of Mensch from Geelong, third tall, not quite good enough to go to the next level.
As I said this is not about trading Kenny!
Its about rebuilding the Crows with some real talent to our KP and midfield. To get the talent we have to get top 10 picks. To get top 10 picks, you have to tank, or trade someone of value to other clubs.

Yes I agree on Biglands, Burton, Welsh, not Goodwin though (you don't trade your club leaders). I also don't think Welsh would be anymore than a high 2nd round at best.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
Freo absolutely r*ped Hawks on that trade. They got McPharlin and Croad for #1 pick. Freo got a gun that they really wanted in McPharlin and got a marketing tool in Croad. A couple of years later they trade Croad back to Hawks for a pick that lands them a gun in the making in Dunn.

Freo's trading and drafting since Schwab became CEO is exceptional.

I don't know about r*ped.
Hawtorn were trading for the AFL #1 draft pick. Of course it was going to be expensive, but Mcpharlin had been unable to play due to OP, and Croads background was well known by Fremantle coaching staff.
In hindsight well done by Fremantle, but McFarlin may not have come up, and Hodge could (and still might) be Judds equivalent.

 

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by Wayne's-World
All fair positions to take.
Have heard of Kenny been referred to as tradesman-like, versatile, good mark, but star? No! for a media driven sport, who like to jump on players and push them up to star status far too readily, who has suggested Kenny to be a future star and backbone of the Crows team?

Top 10 is broad, 1st 5 almost guaranteed top player, next 5 well better than 2 out 3 make it. We got Watts at 14, Angwin at 7 (yes he had real talent), I would suggest a top 5 would not be risky, or worth the risk.

Brown I think was #4, gee if I could do that trade, knowing we could get someone of that calibre?
IMO Hentschell is shaping up as a good CHB, Kenny at FB, doesn't appeal, due to his lack of attacking flair, and inability to run through any lines. He doesn't leap at the ball, but runs to the spot, props, and hopes his good hands are strong enough.

He reminds me of Mensch from Geelong, third tall, not quite good enough to go to the next level.
As I said this is not about trading Kenny!
Its about rebuilding the Crows with some real talent to our KP and midfield. To get the talent we have to get top 10 picks. To get top 10 picks, you have to tank, or trade someone of value to other clubs.

Yes I agree on Biglands, Burton, Welsh, not Goodwin though (you don't trade your club leaders). I also don't think Welsh would be anymore than a high 2nd round at best.

I really don't get your obsession with STAR players. Footy is made up of 18 players on the field at 1 time. No team can have 18 stars. Not even Brisbane. Yes Kenny is a VERY SOLID AFL player but not a star but I ask you is Mark Stevens a star?????? Was Matthew Robran a star?????? Was Scott Lucas a star?????? All those players played down the spine of a premiership premiership side at some point in time.

You say top 5 almost guarantees you a top player. Almost is not good enough. Where was Mark Bolton taken in the draft, where was Ryan Fitzgerald taken in the draft, What about Nic Fosdike?????? All those players were top 4 picks.

Which Brown are you talking about?????? If you are talking about Jonathan Brown you are wrong because he was a father-son selection for the Lions. If you are talking about Nathan Brown, he was taken later at pick #10 I think.

You say Kenny at FB doesn't appeal because of lack of attacking flair. Is Mal Michael attacking FB. I don't think so but hell he is a veryy good defensive FB.

You say to get talent you need top 10 picks and I say what a load of rubbish. Over the years there have been more failures of top 10 picks than there have been successes. A good recruiting officer will get you a gun anywhere in the draft. Drafting proven players (especially KPP) for draft picks is extremely risky and those are the sort of risks we can't afford to take.

I really don't get the obsession with top 10 picks. Yes they give you a decent crack at cream of the crop but they don't guarantee you anything what so ever. You have to be 99.9% sure that you are getting a gun otherwise its an extremely big risk.

 

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by Wayne's-World
I don't know about r*ped.
Hawtorn were trading for the AFL #1 draft pick. Of course it was going to be expensive, but Mcpharlin had been unable to play due to OP, and Croads background was well known by Fremantle coaching staff.
In hindsight well done by Fremantle, but McPharlin may not have come up, and Hodge could (and still might) be Judds equivalent.

McPharlin was a calculated risk and one worth taking. Croad was a marketing tool for Fremantle in the same manner that Modra was.

I think Hodge is a very good player BUT I think he will never be in the same league as Judd or Ball. Another waste of #1 pick. Not a toal waste because Hodge is a good player but I am sureif you ask Hawks now whether they would take Judd or Ball insted of Hodge they would jump at the idea with both hands.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
Yes Kenny is a VERY SOLID AFL player but not a star but I ask you is Mark Stevens a star?????? Was Matthew Robran a star?????? Was Scott Lucas a star?????? All those players played down the spine of a premiership premiership side at some point in time.

You say top 5 almost guarantees you a top player. Almost

You say to get talent you need top 10 picks and I say what a load of rubbish. Over the years there have been more failures of top 10 picks than there have been successes. A good recruiting officer will get you a gun anywhere in the draft. Drafting proven players (especially KPP) for draft picks is extremely risky and those are the sort of risks we can't afford to take.

I really don't get the obsession with top 10 picks. Yes they give you a decent crack at cream of the crop but they don't guarantee you anything what so ever. You have to be 99.9% sure that you are getting a gun otherwise its an extremely big risk.

By that argument we can assume St Kilda have just been "lucky" with their picks
And do I assume that we do not need high draft picks to replace the Macleods, Roo and our future "franchise" players. We'll just get them in the second or third round, due to the fantastic recruiting skills of our recruiting dept.

The objective is to reduce your risk of draft failures, not increase it, as you are suggesting.
To suggest we do not need high draft picks to re-stock our list is ...well I don't follow the argument.