Review Good vs West Coast, R13 2023

Who played well against West Coast?

  • Chayce Jones

  • Ben Keays

  • Lachlan Murphy

  • Riley Thilthorpe

  • Josh Rachele

  • Rory Sloane

  • Luke Pedlar

  • Jordan Dawson

  • Taylor Walker

  • Jake Soligo

  • Max Michalanney

  • Mitch Hinge

  • Izak Rankine

  • Josh Worrell

  • Ned McHenry (sub)

  • Nick Murray

  • Rory Laird

  • Wayne Milera

  • Darcy Fogarty

  • Brodie Smith

  • Lachlan Sholl

  • Jordon Butts

  • Reilly O'Brien

Results are only viewable after voting.

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NSolis said:
I think that's accentuating the negative and completely ignoring counterpoints. If we were all about squeezing young players out of the side to benefit senior incumbents, why did we play Berry so much last year? Why is Dawson in the middle instead of picking Crouch? He's playing SANFL and racking up touches each week after all, they could easily have Dawson on the wing instead of Sholl/Jones and play Crouch as the main CBA guy like the first half of last year.

I think what's going on is the club is trying to balance short-term success against player development. They see Rachele and Pedlar as future midfield stars and they are trying to give them some midfield time while also managing their workload and ensuring we have bigger, more experienced bodies in there as well so we aren't getting belted and can win games. Luckily Rachele and Pedlar are also useful in the forward line, so they can strike a good balance there, which is similar to Port Adelaide in 2021. They had Willem Drew taking 60% of CBAs in that year and he's not some Brownlow winning superstar, he's just a servicable midfielder who was a bit more ready than Butters and Rozee at that time. His midfield minutes have dropped away as the more impressive prospects matured.
Click to expand...

Dawson is a senior player, and the team captain. He wasn't developed at our club. He demanded his insertion when the club continued to play him in the back pocket, and had the leverage to achieve it.

Sloane did his knee last year, there is precisely zero evidence that we'd prefer Berry to him if both available, if anything this year proves the opposite. We picked Crouch for recall this year, after recalling him numerous times last year. We've far from written off breaking glass on that 'solution'.

Repeatedly suggesting that we're doing the same thing as Port does not make it true. The numbers alone captured at this point of time do not reveal the full story. Our players CBA attendances are trending down, the less than golden oldies players trending upwards. The circumstances of the two teams were dramatically different, and remain so. They've got an embarrassment of riches in the midfield, we've got sweet * all, and yet they still have found a way to get JHF sixty percent attendances this year.

It would be far more reasonable to take a measured approach to midfield exposure if you had a star midfield already, than it is when you have a midfield that has spent longer in time stinking than the average AFL career.
 
Southerntakeover said:
Dawson is a senior player, and the team captain. He wasn't developed at our club. He demanded his insertion when the club continued to play him in the back pocket, and had the leverage to achieve it.
Click to expand...
Talk about saying it doesn't make it true .....you've really stretched the truth into fantasy, in an attempt to make a point
 
WaynesWorld19 said:
Talk about saying it doesn't make it true .....you've really stretched the truth into fantasy, in an attempt to make a point
Click to expand...

You've a remarkable capacity to never be on point. Literally everything in the extract you chose to quote is public record.
 

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Southerntakeover said:
You've a remarkable capacity to never be on point. Literally everything in the extract you chose to quote is public record.
Click to expand...
It's not ....you simply changed some words to emphasise the point ....quote me where Dawson DEMANDED to play midfield ....I'll wait
 
Look at the full data, as set out, and try to identify the trends.

Hint: it's not the gradual development of our young midfielders.

Sloane, Keays the big increases during the course of the season, Berry's spot gone to Dawson, Shoenberg gone, Rankine lost whatever amount he had, Rachelle has seen significant decreases.

Pedlar is the only one who has seen CBAs increase throughout the season, those almost entirely reflecting the Soligo's banishment from the center.

The idea we're working from some master plan of development rather than what we've always done: a reactionary swing back to experience when the season got hot and we felt finals were a sniff is the realm of fantasy.


1686558769566.png
 
NSolis said:
I think that's accentuating the negative and completely ignoring counterpoints. If we were all about squeezing young players out of the side to benefit senior incumbents, why did we play Berry so much last year? Why is Dawson in the middle instead of picking Crouch? He's playing SANFL and racking up touches each week after all, they could easily have Dawson on the wing instead of Sholl/Jones and play Crouch as the main CBA guy like the first half of last year.

I think what's going on is the club is trying to balance short-term success against player development. They see Rachele and Pedlar as future midfield stars and they are trying to give them some midfield time while also managing their workload and ensuring we have bigger, more experienced bodies in there as well so we aren't getting belted and can win games. Luckily Rachele and Pedlar are also useful in the forward line, so they can strike a good balance there, which is similar to Port Adelaide in 2021. They had Willem Drew taking 60% of CBAs in that year and he's not some Brownlow winning superstar, he's just a servicable midfielder who was a bit more ready than Butters and Rozee at that time. His midfield minutes have dropped away as the more impressive prospects matured.
Click to expand...
Well, it's certainly refreshing to have some calm and measured common sense getting posted on this board.
 
Southerntakeover said:
Look at the full data, as set out, and try to identify the trends.

Hint: it's not the gradual development of our young midfielders.

Sloane, Keays the big increases during the course of the season, Berry's spot gone to Dawson, Shoenberg gone, Rankine lost whatever amount he had, Rachelle has seen significant decreases.

Pedlar is the only one who has seen CBAs increase throughout the season, those almost entirely reflecting the Soligo's banishment from the center.

The idea we're working from some master plan of development rather than what we've always done: a reactionary swing back to experience when the season got hot and we felt finals were a sniff is the realm of fantasy.


View attachment 1711227
Click to expand...
Rozee started getting a large amount of CBAs at the start of his second year, then got eased out in favour of SPP and Gray. Same with Warner, was eased out midway through his second year, and look how they both turned out. Noah Anderson started out with more than half the time in CBAs in his second year, then ended the year getting less than half. Ginbey is generally getting less centre bounce minutes than in the first few rounds even in a terrible WCE side

It's not all the doom and gloom of prioritising established players, making sure our younger guys are not running out of steam too early is a part of development, too. Look at Rachele - got some extended time in the middle which is a positive, but started to look off the pace with his disposal, so got his CBAs lowered and is looking a more effective presence in our side because of it

The tanks of Rachele, Soligo, Pedlar etc should eventually get to a point where they can cope with large midfield minutes, they're not quite there yet though

That said, I would definitely look at swapping Soligo and Sloane's CBA count. Even though he played an effective game overall, Rory still looked slow and cumbersome against a bottom-tier midfield
 
Southerntakeover said:
Dawson is a senior player, and the team captain. He wasn't developed at our club. He demanded his insertion when the club continued to play him in the back pocket, and had the leverage to achieve it.

Sloane did his knee last year, there is precisely zero evidence that we'd prefer Berry to him if both available, if anything this year proves the opposite. We picked Crouch for recall this year, after recalling him numerous times last year. We've far from written off breaking glass on that 'solution'.

Repeatedly suggesting that we're doing the same thing as Port does not make it true. The numbers alone captured at this point of time do not reveal the full story. Our players CBA attendances are trending down, the less than golden oldies players trending upwards. The circumstances of the two teams were dramatically different, and remain so. They've got an embarrassment of riches in the midfield, we've got sweet * all, and yet they still have found a way to get JHF sixty percent attendances this year.

It would be far more reasonable to take a measured approach to midfield exposure if you had a star midfield already, than it is when you have a midfield that has spent longer in time stinking than the average AFL career.
Click to expand...
So basically your point of view is that because we were / are rebuilding from completely bottoming out, we should be slamming young inexperienced bodies with midfield minutes, breaking them and burning them out before their fitness and bodies can cope with that workload? And you are using JHF as an example of another club doing what you want the crows to do, completely ignoring that JHF is an absolute AFL ready man-child who was years ahead of most draftees body wise at draft time?

Our midfield is transitioning. If we threw Soligo, Rachelle and Pedlar in the deep end as main mids we would see a 5 goal fade out in every last quarter. Getting spanked week in week out does nothing for a clubs confidence. What we are doing keeps us competitive as well as develops the players and I think the Coaching group and Burges would know more about that process than us
 
Danger in Texas said:
I don’t think there was a ‘bad’ performance from any of our guys today. You wouldn’t expect it against WCE, but still good signs nonetheless

The only qualms I have is that ROB shouldn’t have allowed Williams to have the game he had, and Sloane, although effective today, is still looking slow as anything in the middle

Also - what’s with the Rankine comments? You take his game today any day of the week, reckon he has a licence to sometimes try and pull something off that’s a little tricky
Click to expand...
Rankines work without the ball , his ability to tackle or close an opponent down with a hand is so underrated around here

Oh and he kicks lots of goals
 
Danger in Texas said:
Rozee started getting a large amount of CBAs at the start of his second year, then got eased out in favour of SPP and Gray. Same with Warner, was eased out midway through his second year, and look how they both turned out. Noah Anderson started out with more than half the time in CBAs in his second year, then ended the year getting less than half. Ginbey is generally getting less centre bounce minutes than in the first few rounds even in a terrible WCE side

It's not all the doom and gloom of prioritising established players, making sure our younger guys are not running out of steam too early is a part of development, too. Look at Rachele - got some extended time in the middle which is a positive, but started to look off the pace with his disposal, so got his CBAs lowered and is looking a more effective presence in our side because of it

The tanks of Rachele, Soligo, Pedlar etc should eventually get to a point where they can cope with large midfield minutes, they're not quite there yet though

That said, I would definitely look at swapping Soligo and Sloane's CBA count. Even though he played an effective game overall, Rory still looked slow and cumbersome against a bottom-tier midfield
Click to expand...
Rachele looks a bit sore at moment , hopefully he freshens up and can get back in there more

Agree Soligo needs to increase for sloane currently

Keays can keep doing what he’s doing

Still want to see Schoenberg again this season
 
Jeffcrowe said:
Rankines work without the ball , his ability to tackle or close an opponent down with a hand is so underrated around here

Oh and he kicks lots of goals
Click to expand...
Bingo, he's as much of a complete small/half forward as you can get

Fourth most goals of any small/medium forward, and out of the top 10 only Greene is averaging more touches a game. Plus he has genuine pace and works hard defensively
 

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Jeffcrowe said:
Rachele looks a bit sore at moment , hopefully he freshens up and can get back in there more

Agree Soligo needs to increase for sloane currently

Keays can keep doing what he’s doing

Still want to see Schoenberg again this season
Click to expand...
Schoenberg's a weird one, I think I'm at the point where I want to see him for a three-game run, then if he can't cement his place, trade him

Keays is a weird one, looks like he's been plugged back in that full-time mid role, for now. Has been good since making the move back, but still needs to gradually make way for Pedlar over the next 18 months

Happy for Rash to continue in his current role for the rest of the season if it means increasing his effectiveness (with maybe the occasional game with bigger midfield minutes to keep him hungry), continuing to build his tank over the next 9 months, before starting off 2024 with a bang
 
Shuestar13 said:
He is a good man, what he did for our club and achieved in the first part of his tenure was outstanding. Sad the way things are going, but it is a very tough game and the critics would say that he has to take some responsibilty for the current situation. It is totally not all on him however.

Management are hoping he gets so worn down that he walks, he has the safety net of a very well paid contract so he wont want for money whatever happens. Not that means everything of course. Interesting times ahead!
Click to expand...

Id take a premiership and 5 wooden spoons everyday of the week ..
 
Pilchard_Adams said:
So basically your point of view is that because we were / are rebuilding from completely bottoming out, we should be slamming young inexperienced bodies with midfield minutes, breaking them and burning them out before their fitness and bodies can cope with that workload? And you are using JHF as an example of another club doing what you want the crows to do, completely ignoring that JHF is an absolute AFL ready man-child who was years ahead of most draftees body wise at draft time?

Our midfield is transitioning. If we threw Soligo, Rachelle and Pedlar in the deep end as main mids we would see a 5 goal fade out in every last quarter. Getting spanked week in week out does nothing for a clubs confidence. What we are doing keeps us competitive as well as develops the players and I think the Coaching group and Burges would know more about that process than us
Click to expand...

Hysterical nonsense.

1) Young players won't die if we gave them a few more of Sloane or Keays CBAs, we've already established that JHF can take 60 percent.

2) Playing the codgers has not prevented midfield smashings, they've been getting smashed in key games and severely costing us. See: Gold Coast, Bulldogs.

3) Of course there's something different in our banishing Soligo et al to prioritise Keays and the like in a team heading nowhere fast and Rozee giving way to Robbie Gray for a premiership assault. That's just ignoring Butters being injured in 2021.

There is no transition. Ironically we gave a greater percentage of CBAs to young players last year, though forced by the Sloane injury, we just happened to discard both Berry and Shoenberg this year.

Perversely Soligo actually finished the year last year getting more midfield time than he's currently getting.

2022:

1686564205330.png
 
This is a really useful sight fwiw.

dfsaustralia.com

CBAs - DFS Australia

Centre Bounce Attendances are available from the 2020 season. Average refers to the percentage of CBAs each player has attended for the season (considering only those games they have played). Each round is denoted as percentage of CBAs attended for that round. Centre Bounce Attendance Percentage...
dfsaustralia.com dfsaustralia.com
 
Southerntakeover said:
Hysterical nonsense.

1) Young players won't die if we gave them a few more of Sloane or Keays CBAs, we've already established that JHF can take 60 percent.

2) Playing the codgers has not prevented midfield smashings, they've been getting smashed in key games and severely costing us. See: Gold Coast, Bulldogs.

3) Of course there's something different in our banishing Soligo et al to prioritise Keays and the like in a team heading nowhere fast and Rozee giving way to Robbie Gray for a premiership assault. That's just ignoring Butters being injured in 2021.

There is no transition. Ironically we gave a greater percentage of CBAs to young players last year, though forced by the Sloane injury, we just happened to discard both Berry and Shoenberg this year.

Perversely Soligo actually finished the year last year getting more midfield time than he's currently getting.

2022:

View attachment 1711369
Click to expand...

1. We have already established JHF was much more AFL ready than the likes of Soligo, Rachelle and Pedlar.

2. Every week 1 team wins the midfield battle, and 1 team loses it. CBA is but 1 very small aspect of a football game that you are hanging onto as if it was something absolutely critical. On top of that, you are acting like it is critical that "Codgers" (yes Sloane is old, but Laird at 29, Keays at 26, Dawson at 26) make way for youth. In what world are Laird, Keays and Dawson Codgers? Those 4 together are probably in the mid to lower age bracket for starting mids in the comp... Whats more important than CBA is the rest of the game, the part that has us kicking winning scores despite losing IN50 and Clearances.

3. Did you sit in on some conversation where Nicks banished Soligo from the midfield group? Or is his load being managed after having a very poor game against the Bulldogs? Its actually coincided with Pedlar getting more CBA. Keays midfield minutes probably relates to where the player he has been tasked with tagging plays. Saad during the Carlton game for example. Nicks is still trying to win games after all.

Berry and Schoenberg havent been discarded. They have weaknesses to work on and are currently being outperformed by the likes of Soligo, Rachelle and Pedlar. The job is on them now to make themselves best 22.

Collingwood are playing 4 players with an average age of around 31 ahead of Nick Daicos, one of the most skilled promising players in our lifetimes. Brisbane are doing similar with Ashcroft even though he is a future star. North have been playing Greenwood and Shiels in recent weeks at CBA. West Coasts Shuey, Yeo, Sheed and Kelly are older than our 4 mids yet they got the CBAs

I for one am much more interested in Contested ball win %, Disposal efficiency, Inside50 entries, IN50 to score conversion %, Goal accuracy, DEF50 rebounds, score against, score for, tackle numbers than the amount of times 1 particular player attends the CBAs
 
Of course you're interested in shifting the goal posts, your entire argument to date was wrong.

1) Have we? Or is that merely an excuse you're making when presented with the evidence that your claim that young players can never play midfield without destroying their bodies is a nonsense?

2) Irrelevant puff. If you don't think CBAs are meaningful, why engage in a series of false claims about how we're using them?

3) I read the numbers that I posted, and watched the games. What possible significance could hearing Nicks say it hold, when confronted with reality?

Collingwood are premiership contenders, and generally manage to give meaningful CBA attendances to 5-6 players with meaningful and close, splits in midfield time each week including Daicos (x 2), fair chance that Josh will exceed Soligo by the end of the year. We have room for four, and at best five players in any given week. Which doesn't really tell us much. They're contenders, we're not.

1686569254631.png
 
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Southerntakeover said:
Collingwood are premiership contenders, and generally manage to give meaningful CBA attendances to 5-6 players with meaningful and close, splits in midfield time each week including Daicos (x 2), fair chance that Josh will exceed Soligo by the end of the year. We have room for four, and at best five players in any given week. Which doesn't really tell us much. They're contenders, we're not.

View attachment 1711419
Click to expand...
What’s the point of this comparison? Obviously their split is going to be greater, six of the seven midfielders they usually use are minimum three years more experienced than Soligo, Pedlar and Rachele, whilst the other is just a pure generational talent already in his second year. Of course they’re going to use all of these players and give them equal time, they’re all of high quality, provide a good mix, and are mostly experienced. Just part of the reason they’re contenders. Obviously we aren’t at that level yet

By 2025, that should change, with a few years under the belt for some of our guys + Sloane retired (surely) and hopefully an experienced piece and/or a super promising draftee added to the mix. Then it’s up to Nicks and VB to add them to deal with our mix accordingly, which remains to be seen how it will play out, but talent should speak for itself
 

Coaches' votes, R13​

​

Adelaide v West Coast​

10 Taylor Walker (ADEL)
7 Jordan Dawson (ADEL)
7 Rory Laird (ADEL)
3 Rory Sloane (ADEL)
2 Ben Keays (ADEL)
1 Izak Rankine (ADEL

Butters leading the pack. o_O

LEADERBOARD​

73 Zak Butters (PORT)
63 Nick Daicos (COLL)
61 Christian Petracca (MELB)
52 Zach Merrett (ESS)
52 Tim Taranto (RICH)
48 Jack Sinclair (STK)
47 Jordan Dawson (ADEL)
47 Jordan De Goey (COLL)
47 Toby Greene (GWS)
45 Matt Rowell (GCFC)
45 Connor Rozee (PORT)
44 Noah Anderson (GCFC)
44 Marcus Bontempelli (WB)
41 Lachie Neale (BL)
40 Clayton Oliver (MELB)
38 Callum Wilkie (STK)
37 Rory Laird (ADEL)
37 Darcy Moore (COLL)
36 Caleb Serong (FRE)
35 Chad Warner (SYD)
 
Last edited:
Danger in Texas said:
What’s the point of this comparison? Obviously their split is going to be greater, six of the seven midfielders they usually use are minimum three years more experienced than Soligo, Pedlar and Rachele, whilst the other is just a pure generational talent already in his second year. Of course they’re going to use all of these players and give them equal time, they’re all of high quality, provide a good mix, and are mostly experienced. Just part of the reason they’re contenders. Obviously we aren’t at that level yet

By 2025, that should change, with a few years under the belt for some of our guys + Sloane retired (surely) and hopefully an experienced piece and/or a super promising draftee added to the mix. Then it’s up to Nicks and VB to add them to deal with our mix accordingly, which remains to be seen how it will play out, but talent should speak for itself
Click to expand...

It wasn't my comparison, it was his. I just provided the data.

If the reason other teams can play young midfielders in their actual position and we can't is because those talents are elite prospects and ours aren't, that's probably revealing of a problem.
 
Southerntakeover said:
It wasn't my comparison, it was his. I just provided the data.

If the reason other teams can play young midfielders in their actual position and we can't is because those talents are elite prospects and ours aren't, that's probably revealing of a problem.
Click to expand...
The fact we haven’t got a generational, 2nd year Brownlow contender on our list to play in the midfield isn’t a problem of ours, especially when said player was available to literally no other club

Look at Phillipou, who most (inc myself) wanted with our first pick had we not traded for Rankine - only 16 CBAs for the season thus far (and it’s not like the Saints midfield is world class). If he were on our list, many would be begging Nicks to give him 30-40% CBA time a game, but it just isn’t realistic. Point is, many prospects take a bit of time

That said, I do think we’re lacking one bonafide top tier mid prospect to add to the mix, hopefully we can find one with our first this year
 
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