List Mgmt. Graeme Wrights Recruiting (Analysing HFC recruiting from 2011-present)

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Judd2Sewell

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You bag Clarko for being stubborn and not doing what you want, someone said go apply for the job yourself then because all you are doing is saying you can see it more clearly than Clarko.
You've also said that Clarko isn't the best coach going right now that Hardwick is. If you think the Tigers have a better list than the Hawks then you've got to look further than just W/L to decide who is coaching better.

But what do you do? Are we going to win the flag or not.

You don't want to discuss the comments you make, so you change the topic and then wait for the response to you can use that answer to act like it justifies what you post about Clarko.

It's becoming common on here, just give me a yes or a no, no interest in details or reasoning and often it's when you don't like the reasoning you've gotten off someone.

Do I think we will win the flag this year? No I don't. Do I know we won't win the flag this year? No I don't.

Do I thin whether you think we will win the flag means your opinions on Clarko are correct? No I don't.

You say it's not about being black and right but you are making it a binary arguement which leaves no room for the obvious I don't know or you're asking the wrong question or any discussion at all.
I haven't changed any topic, explain to me where I have?

I asked him a simple question to begin with and got a long-winded answer that answered everything but the actual question.

He changed the topic every time, he told me to go apply for the job, told me to go and support Collingwood, and continued to avoid a straightforward question - do you think we will win the flag? It's simple.

Internalize all of your excuses, reasons and insights and come up with the answer, then explain it. But there was none of that - there we just a long winded post that didn't address anything. Did you read the post? Maybe you haven't yet.

I'm not saying you can't have a discussion. But I wasn't asking him for discussion points that didn't answer the question that I'd asked.

Where are these followers that I want BTW?

Where is the answer to "do you reckon we are a chance for the flag?" In the below. Feel free to highlight it for me.

Lets look at this.

Clarko is proven, what is currently underneath him after losing Ratts, Fagan, Rath, Russel.......the list goes on and on, are not, plain and simple.

But even forgetting this as a side issue, if you have no forwards who can take a game apart, in particular a big forward, preferably 2 then what can you do until you are "provided" with them?

icthmond would not have one last year if it wasn't for Lynch.

Where do we find them? It's called patients unfortunately.

But supporters need to remember that the HFC has always eventfully found them, before shooting from the hip, whether it's in time for Clarko or not is irrelevant, to the fact that this man is trying his best with what he has.

I am 110% positive that as soon as a big forward on our current list starts to cause major problems for the opposition all this Clarko yammering will go away and he'll be happier then anyone on here. He is not a stupid man or a useless leader of men.

Yes, as the coach the buck stops with him, but lets have some context about it.
 

Gralin

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I haven't changed any topic, explain to me where I have?

I asked him a simple question to begin with and got a long-winded answer that answered everything but the actual question.

He changed the topic every time, he told me to go apply for the job, told me to go and support Collingwood, and continued to avoid a straightforward question - do you think we will win the flag? It's simple.

Internalize all of your excuses, reasons and insights and come up with the answer, then explain it. But there was none of that - there we just a long winded post that didn't address anything. Did you read the post? Maybe you haven't yet.

I'm not saying you can't have a discussion. But I wasn't asking him for discussion points that didn't answer the question that I'd asked.

Where are these followers that I want BTW?

Where is the answer to "do you reckon we are a chance for the flag?" In the below. Feel free to highlight it for me.
It started with Noel saying
All this talk about challenging for a flag for the reminder of Clarkson's tenure has been pure fantasy, enough already
Which we have a thread about and also last I checked includes next year and the year after.

You replied to that with
Agree. The worst thing for the club is that Clarko is seemingly too stubborn to admit it.

Continuing down this path will set us back significantly.

Bottom four, terrible game plan, terrible percentage and the second oldest list. Everything suggests we need a change.
To which the why don't you apply for the coaching job came.

That's when you decided to go with the so you think we are a premiership chance question and turn the entire discussion in this thread into just answer that question.

Yes the response you got didn't answer your question but what was the point of your question in the context of you saying the biggest issue we have right now is Clarko.

Because this is a thread about the list management and recruiting and not the coach last I checked. Nor is it a thread about whether we will win the flag this year.

I never said there was an answer in there, I also said I don't know is a valid answer, but again it goes back to the fact that you decided to make the justification for you saying Clarko is too stubborn to admit there is a problem be based on whether another poster thinks we can win the flag this year.

You deflected and then attacked for an answer in the format you wanted.
 

Judd2Sewell

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As for Clarko and Hardwick Gralin

Just look at what Hardwick's Richmond did to WBD last night without:
- Vlastuin
- Edwards
- Prestia
- Houli
- Astbury
- Caddy
- Nankervis

Also with 10 players with <30 games of experience. I think the team we put out last week is better on paper than the team that Richmond put out, yet there was a huge difference in the quality of the play and the game plan.

I haven't said Hardwick is a better coach end of, what I said was right now he is coaching better. It's impossible to argue against what we see.
 

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Judd2Sewell

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It started with Noel saying


Which we have a thread about and also last I checked includes next year and the year after.

You replied to that with

To which the why don't you apply for the coaching job came.

That's when you decided to go with the so you think we are a premiership chance question and turn the entire discussion in this thread into just answer that question.

Yes the response you got didn't answer your question but what was the point of your question in the context of you saying the biggest issue we have right now is Clarko.

Because this is a thread about the list management and recruiting and not the coach last I checked. Nor is it a thread about whether we will win the flag this year.

I never said there was an answer in there, I also said I don't know is a valid answer, but again it goes back to the fact that you decided to make the justification for you saying Clarko is too stubborn to admit there is a problem be based on whether another poster thinks we can win the flag this year.

You deflected and then attacked for an answer in the format you wanted.
Yes, this whole discussion was based on Clarko believing we are currently vying for a flag, despite all evidence to the contrary. IMO we aren't this year, thus changing strategies would be beneficial - or more to the point continuing down this path will obviously not be and can potentially set us back.

He challenged my post by telling me to go apply for the job.

Hence why that question was put to LGMjr.

The topic remained the same for me, which was why I asked the same question multiple times. Only one poster here deflected and avoided answering it directly. If he'd been bothered to answer honestly then I'd have asked him what he thinks we should do in terms of recruiting and list management. But we never got that far because he couldn't get past the first question.

This is easy enough to follow.
 

LMGjr

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Yes, this whole discussion was based on Clarko believing we are currently vying for a flag, despite all evidence to the contrary. IMO we aren't this year, thus changing strategies would be beneficial - or more to the point continuing down this path will obviously not be and can potentially set us back.

He challenged my post by telling me to go apply for the job.

Hence why that question was put to LGMjr.

The topic remained the same for me, which was why I asked the same question multiple times. Only one poster here deflected and avoided answering it directly. If he'd been bothered to answer honestly then I'd have asked him what he thinks we should do in terms of recruiting and list management. But we never got that far because he couldn't get past the first question.

This is easy enough to follow.
Yeah apply for job since you know better. Your still claiming to know better in the post quoted, get off big footy and go appy for a job at the HFC since you know exactly what is needed. This is very easy to follow, and boring.

Also I did answer your question with "time will tell".

In case you don't understand simple language that is an answer, instead of trying to get the answer you want as a power play, just to continue a non issue, on your terms to suit your agenda, sorry to disappoint and "challenge" you LOL

Boring. For everyone.
 

Judd2Sewell

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Yeah apply for job since you know better. Your still claiming to know better in the post quoted, get off big footy and go appy for a job at the HFC since you know exactly what is needed. This is very easy to follow, and boring.

Also I did answer your question with "time will tell".

In case you don't understand simple language that is an answer, instead of trying to get the answer you want as a power play, just to continue a non issue, on your terms to suit your agenda, sorry to disappoint and "challenge" you LOL

Boring. For everyone.
There's no power play, I was asking for your opinion. As if you don't have one.

You're the poster that came in swinging his e-knob around telling me to go and apply for that job.
 

Brant

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Quite simply we have over rated the list and the topping up has failed miserably. Accept responsibility and move on. You can't fight City Hall. We have enjoyed tremendous success over the past 4 decades which will last us a lifetime. I for one have no issue with enduring a little pain in next few years to ensure we put together a list that can realistically challenge at around mid 2025. All this talk about challenging for a flag for the reminder of Clarkson's tenure has been pure fantasy, enough already
Garbage.
 

Pessimistic

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Yes, this whole discussion was based on Clarko believing we are currently vying for a flag, despite all evidence to the contrary. IMO we aren't this year, thus changing strategies would be beneficial - or more to the point continuing down this path will obviously not be and can potentially set us back.

He challenged my post by telling me to go apply for the job.

Hence why that question was put to LGMjr.

The topic remained the same for me, which was why I asked the same question multiple times. Only one poster here deflected and avoided answering it directly. If he'd been bothered to answer honestly then I'd have asked him what he thinks we should do in terms of recruiting and list management. But we never got that far because he couldn't get past the first question.

This is easy enough to follow.
4 wins from 9. Need 5 or 6 from the last 8 to play finals. Last 8 last year? 6 from 8.. a couple more losses would seal it leaving 6 games to still play the kids
 

Davo-27

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People posting we need to accept a few years of ‘pain’ but also whinging about current ‘pain’

how do you know this isn’t the painful period you are looking for already? Is 2010 ‘pain’ enough or do you want 2004?
C'mon you're smarter than that...... I hope

Playing a team that has more than a 1/3rd of players not going to be around in 2-3 years and being BOG average compared to young talent who are gelling as a core for the future are completely different situations, the pain of 2005-2007 was not an issue as we saw the likelihood of success once they got into their prime, the pain of watching a bunch of veterans struggle to re-capture their youth does nothing for anyone, unless they produce immediate results.
 

Pessimistic

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C'mon you're smarter than that...... I hope

Playing a team that has more than a 1/3rd of players not going to be around in 2-3 years and being BOG average compared to young talent who are gelling as a core for the future are completely different situations, the pain of 2005-2007 was not an issue as we saw the likelihood of success once they got into their prime, the pain of watching a bunch of veterans struggle to re-capture their youth does nothing for anyone, unless they produce immediate results.
Hindsights a b*tch, some examples of common consensus in a forum like bigfooty:

in 2004. Bigfooty/HHQ: Selecting Rough, Buddy and Lewis was a big fail. Not to mention selecting Hodge over Judd and Ball was a big fail (in fact it contributed to John Hook being replaced - so not just in bigfooty)

in 2005-06 hawks did buy into the load up on early draft picks (project players) for a few years and the only gold turned out to be Birchal and Suckling. recruiting for 3-5 years hence is NOT Hawthorns strong point thankfully 05-06 as part of 04-07 is very creditable

in 2010. in BigfootyGWS and Gold Coast would probably win all the premierships between them from about 2016 onwards

in 2012. Sadly, most of us in Bigfooty thought Hodges best was behind him


I do think 14 of our most experienced as imports is too much that way. 2012-16 was about 7. 10 is not so bad. Its a tweak not a total overturning of the 'strategy" (which, lets be honest we are guessing at anyway) Its already started with Day, Maginness


And back in 2008, a 'pinched' flag - was it 10 or 12 of the team who pre dated Clarko arriving?. This list will peak in 2022
 
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Davo-27

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Hindsights a b*tch, some examples of common consensus in a forum like bigfooty:

in 2004. Bigfooty/HHQ: Selecting Rough, Buddy and Lewis was a big fail. Not to mention selecting Hodge over Judd and Ball was a big fail (in fact it contributed to John Hook being replaced - so not just in bigfooty)

in 2005-06 hawks did buy into the load up on early draft picks (project players) for a few years and the only gold turned out to be Birchal and Suckling. recruiting for 3-5 years hence is NOT Hawthorns strong point thankfully 05-06 as part of 04-07 is very creditable

in 2010. in BigfootyGWS and Gold Coast would probably win all the premierships between them from about 2016 onwards

in 2012. Sadly, most of us in Bigfooty thought Hodges best was behind him


I do think 14 of our most experienced as imports is too much that way. 12-16 was about 7. 10 is not so bad. Its a tweak not a total overturning of the 'strategy" (which, lets be honest we are guessing at anyway) Its already started with Day, Maginness
Let's be honest there's a lot of dumb stuff said on bigfooty, but to attach all of the low iq crap said to people you disagree with is unfair, I mean the Tambling thing was ignorance backed by media rubbish and some people fell for it, especially with Terry Wallet proclaiming victory, The club made the mistake of not believing in Buddy and Rough, by recruiting backups that were not necessary or any good in Thorpe and Dowler, Birchall and Cyril I think were good pickups, I knew GCS and GWS would struggle, I don't understand the they will win all the premiership rubbish, but people are people and they tend to think like a herd I guess.
 

Pessimistic

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OK, look at it another Way. saints had a few years getting their core through the draft, and recently 'topping up' - but got Max King in that period too

Which group is driving the success now? in 2008 the guys who made the difference were Hodge (a #1 pick we traded for) and Dew, who was essentially free but the coach had to go totally against the strategy to recruit. So one of each. Dew certainly wasn't there for the 'next' premiership
Strategy sits therm but indididual decisions can appear against (or bending) the strategy, but the gamble may pay off. Since Thorp and Dowler the Hawks have done little wrong, but there have been plenty of occasions where the recruitments looked bad in the first year or so, but turned out OK
 

Davo-27

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I like to look over our list each year, I've been doing it for decades now, I started in the mid 90's when we struggled to have 15 players of value on our list, those were dark days, anyway I noticed some issues in 2017 onwards, here is how I view our list

Players who have passed their prime and some of which are not performing to the level in which we would like of them.
Burgoyne 37, Frawley 31, Puopolo 32, Stratton 31, Scully 29, Henderson 32

Players who seem out of favour or who don't seem likely to make it
Cousins 22, Glass 23, Ross 21, Golds 20, Minchington 26

Players I'm unsure of
Patton - 27 his speed is an issue and lack of impact
Ceglar - 29 really inconsistent season
TOB - 26 averages less than a goal a game, can contest marks, inconsistent form
Hanrahan - 22 averages less than a goal a game, unless he gets a loose ball can go missing
Moore - 21 too slow and small to really impact as a small forw

Good Players on our list
Breust 29, McEvoy 31, Shiels 29, Smith 31, Gunston 28, Wingard 27, Impey 25, Mitchell 27, JOM 26, Frost 27, Sicily 25, Hardwick 23, Worpel 21, Scrimshaw 22, Day 19

Players on the fringe/role players
Howe 24, Hartley 27, Morrison 21, Nash 22, Lewis 21, Jiath 21, Jones 21, Reeves 21, Walker 20, Greaves 20, Koschitzke 19, Maginness 19, Pepper 19, Morris 18, Jeka 18, Brooksby 30.
 
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Simon Crawshay

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I like to look over our list each year, I've been doing it for decades now, I started in the mid 90's when we struggled to have 15 players of value on our list, those were dark days, anyway I noticed some issues in 2017 onwards, here is how I view our list

Players who have passed their prime and some of which are not performing to the level in which we would like of them.
Burgoyne 37, Frawley 31, Puopolo 32, Stratton 31, Scully 29, Henderson 32

Players who seem out of favour or who don't seem likely to make it
Cousins 22, Glass 23, Ross 21, Golds 20, Minchington 26

Players I'm unsure of
Patton - 27 his speed is an issue and lack of impact
Ceglar - 29 really inconsistent season
TOB - 26 averages less than a goal a game, can contest marks, inconsistent form
Hanrahan - 22 averages less than a goal a game, unless he gets a loose ball can go missing
Moore - 21 too slow and small to really impact as a small forw

Good Players on our list
Breust 29, McEvoy 31, Shiels 29, Smith 31, Gunston 28, Wingard 27, Impey 25, Mitchell 27, JOM 26, Frost 27, Sicily 25, Hardwick 23, Worpel 21, Scrimshaw 22, Day 19

Players on the fringe/role players
Howe 24, Hartley 27, Morrison 21, Nash 22, Lewis 21, Jiath 21, Jones 21, Reeves 21, Walker 20, Greaves 20, Koschitzke 19, Maginness 19, Pepper 19, Morris 18, Jeka 18, Brooksby 30.
Of those 15 good players how many would you deem to be elite in their position?

For me Bruest, Mitchell, Wingard and Sicily are elite.

At first glance our list does seem a little uneven, the gulf between our best and worst players is a lot greater than it was during the threepeat years.
 

Davo-27

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Of those 15 good players how many would you deem to be elite in their position?

For me Bruest, Mitchell, Wingard and Sicily are elite.

At first glance our list does seem a little uneven, the gulf between our best and worst players is a lot greater than it was during the threepeat years.
I think Wingard as a mid can be elite, but when he is played as a forw like when Breust was injured, he can put in very ordinary performances or just randomly he can play poorly, I think that was an issue at port too, his inconsistency.

Mitchell's work rate is elite, but disposal is an area he needs to work around

Sicily is elite as an intercepting, quality ball using rebounder, defensively he is average though.

Breust is an elite finisher

Smith used to be an elite goal kicking winger, he has lost a bit of his edge, but still very good

Frost is showing elite defensive skills

Day is showing elite decision making skills

Impey has elite speed

Hardwick is a great competitor

They have some elite areas of their game imo
 

Simon Crawshay

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I think Wingard as a mid can be elite, but when he is played as a forw like when Breust was injured, he can put in very ordinary performances or just randomly he can play poorly, I think that was an issue at port too, his inconsistency.

Mitchell's work rate is elite, but disposal is an area he needs to work around

Sicily is elite as an intercepting, quality ball using rebounder, defensively he is average though.

Breust is an elite finisher

Smith used to be an elite goal kicking winger, he has lost a bit of his edge, but still very good

Frost is showing elite defensive skills

Day is showing elite decision making skills

Impey has elite speed

Hardwick is a great competitor

They have some elite areas of their game imo
I debated including Wingard as elite due to his inconsistencies but when he is on he is a level above all other players at the Hawks in terms of skill and match turning play (apart from maybe Sicily who I rate very highly indeed)

Of the next level down I think Day, Impey and Scrimshaw could move to elte status baring injury in the next 2 to 4 years.
 

rogiebear93

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I think Wingard as a mid can be elite, but when he is played as a forw like when Breust was injured, he can put in very ordinary performances or just randomly he can play poorly, I think that was an issue at port too, his inconsistency.

Mitchell's work rate is elite, but disposal is an area he needs to work around

Sicily is elite as an intercepting, quality ball using rebounder, defensively he is average though.

Breust is an elite finisher

Smith used to be an elite goal kicking winger, he has lost a bit of his edge, but still very good

Frost is showing elite defensive skills

Day is showing elite decision making skills

Impey has elite speed

Hardwick is a great competitor

They have some elite areas of their game imo
I disagree with Sicily being average defensively, in 2019 he won the most contested defensive 1v1s against his opponent as a defender whilst only losing around 15%. He's been a bit off form this year but there's no surprises considering how leaky our midfield has been at times.

Would love him to chase a bit more however.
 
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Judd2Sewell

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People posting we need to accept a few years of ‘pain’ but also whinging about current ‘pain’

how do you know this isn’t the painful period you are looking for already? Is 2010 ‘pain’ enough or do you want 2004?
I believe all supporters are able to accept a down period. It's inevitable, and we had a golden run that softens any blow.

But what some fans find it too hard to accept is a down period when all the noise coming from the club was that we are challenging - due to the experience on our list. Meanwhile we were getting flogged on the field, whilst trotting out the oldest side in the league, and up until last week were playing the worst brand of football.

This current team is not comparable to our 2005/6 (young core of superstar players finding their feet) or 2009/10 (premiership core of gun players who had already proven they could win a flag) teams.

The issue was the performances, coaching/game plan and strength of the side does not match the ambition.
 

Simon Crawshay

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I disagree with Sicily being average defensively, in 2019 he won the most contested defensive 1v1s against his opponent as a defender whilst only losing around 15%. He's been a bit off form this year but there's no surprises considering how leaky our midfield have been at times.

Would love him to chase a bit more however.
Totally agree.

Last year Sicily regularly lined up on monsters such as Lynch from Richmond and gave them a defensive spanking despite giving away many inches and pounds.

If Sicily doesnt make the AA team this year I will dead set spew up!
 

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I believe all supporters are able to accept a down period. It's inevitable, and we had a golden run that softens any blow.

But what some fans find it too hard to accept is a down period when all the noise coming from the club was that we are challenging - due to the experience on our list. Meanwhile we were getting flogged on the field, whilst trotting out the oldest side in the league, and up until last week were playing the worst brand of football.

This current team is not comparable to our 2005/6 (young core of superstar players finding their feet) or 2009/10 (premiership core of gun players who had already proven they could win a flag) teams.

The issue was the performances, coaching/game plan and strength of the side does not match the ambition.
You want the club to announce clearly they are "Not Challenging"?
 

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