Great keeper batsmen, who comes after Gilchrist?

Second Best Keeper-Batsman in test cricket?


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    39
Now we constantly hear about how Gilchrist is the greatest keeper-bat to play the game and how he revolutionized the keeping position. That begs the question, who else deserves to be rated alongside him, and if not that, slightly below?

Many people believe that Les Ames deserves to be in the discussion, given he averaged 40 for his career, and 43 whilst keeping. Unfortunately not many people have seen him and therefore it's only based on stats where we can rate him.

Kumar Sangakkara could be included too, given that he averaged 40 whilst keeping and batting at 3 for the most part during that time period, but even though he was a fantastic batsman, I disagree due to the fact that he had a far superior record when not taking the gloves, and that he played without them more than he did with them.

The player I think deserves to be recognized as the #2 is Andy Flower. In fact you could mount an argument that he could be #1. Whilst keeping, Flower averaged 54 with the bat, no mean feat when you consider that only 2 other Zimbabwean players in his era of test cricket averaged more than 30 in Murray Goodwin and Dave Houghton.

Who else deserves to be part of this debate? Matt Prior was a very good keeper-bat for England for a while there. Maybe AB de Villiers? He's a freak though, really. MS Dhoni averaged 38 in test cricket, although most would argue his exploits were better in the One Day arena.
 
Matt Prior deserves no mention.

Nobody has really come close to Gilchrist for me, purely based on his amazing skill set. Dhoni perhaps the closest to emulate it and he did brilliantly in the shorter formats but lacked Gilly’s Test aptitude.

AB not having the gloves due to Boucher (and being so brilliant in the field) takes him out of the discussion for me, if I was picking an XI I’d very much want him in the circle.

I never saw enough of Flower to comment, I wish I’d taken more notice.
 
Matt Prior deserves no mention.

Nobody has really come close to Gilchrist for me, purely based on his amazing skill set. Dhoni perhaps the closest to emulate it and he did brilliantly in the shorter formats but lacked Gilly’s Test aptitude.

AB not having the gloves due to Boucher (and being so brilliant in the field) takes him out of the discussion for me, if I was picking an XI I’d very much want him in the circle.

I never saw enough of Flower to comment, I wish I’d taken more notice.
I put ABDV in the discussion due to the fact that if you were picking an all time South African XI he'd probably be the keeper/bat to allow for someone like Dudley Nourse or Hashim Amla in the top 7 along with Aubrey Faulkner as an all rounder. Would you rather go:

Richards
Smith
Amla
Kallis
G Pollock
de Villiers (+)
Faulkner
S Pollock
Tayfield
Steyn
Donald

Or

Richards
Smith
Kallis
G Pollock
de Villiers
Faulkner
Boucher (+)
S Pollock
Tayfield
Steyn
Donald
 
I’d 100% go de Villiers over Boucher, who I thought was a very mediocre batsman who did fight hard. In my logic though it’s the same as Sangakkara, having not kept for large parts of his career means he doesn’t threaten Gilly’s spot as GOAT.
 
May 5, 2016
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De Kock has already won a handful of tests for his nation. If a keeper does that 2-3 tines with the bat in his whole career he’s doing well. He also does it at a scoring rate similar to Gilchrist. And hasn’t, to date at least, had quite the dominant top order platforms that Gilchrist had.

Not saying he’s better. But he’ll be close to the discussion when he finishes imo
 
May 5, 2016
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Surprised you haven't mention Dujon Phatty, 3k runs @ 31 and over 250 dismissals.

He was a gun, but let’s be honest, his record puts him in a fairly good but large group with Healy, Marsh, Boucher, Knott etc.

He was in an interesting position. He had the benefit of batting behind a great side, but what most people I speak to about cricket say of Dujon was that he had a habit of being the thorn in the side on the rare occasions that opponents would get through 1-6 relatively quickly.
 

Demosthenes

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For my money, Andy Flower and it's not even close. Would possibly even rate him above Gilchrist given he batted first drop and the rest of his team was trash. Made runs everywhere except England and Australia, which is mostly down to lack of opportunity.

Sangakkara should have about five runs knocked off his average for batting half his innings on postage stamps.
 
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He was a gun, but let’s be honest, his record puts him in a fairly good but large group with Healy, Marsh, Boucher, Knott etc.

He was in an interesting position. He had the benefit of batting behind a great side, but what most people I speak to about cricket say of Dujon was that he had a habit of being the thorn in the side on the rare occasions that opponents would get through 1-6 relatively quickly.
I remember this game, a perfect example.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/...t-Test-west-indies-tour-of-australia-1984-85/
They were 5/154, Gomes and Dujon both get hundreds they get 400+ and roll us twice to win by an innings.
 
May 5, 2016
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For my money, Andy Flower and it's not even close. Would possibly even rate him above Gilchrist given he batted first drop and the rest of his team was trash. Made runs everywhere except England and Australia, which is mostly down to lack of opportunity.

Sangakkara should have about five runs knocked off his average for batting half his innings on postage stamps.


Yeah good point.

If you just remove England, Sri Lanka, Australia, Pakistan, UAE, Bangladesh and New Zealand from his record, he doesn’t average over 45 anywhere.
 
BJ Watling should be in the discussion, he has scored 6 test hundreds, 13 fifties and has a batting average of 38.05, h's no slouch as a keeper either.
Ronchi averages more. Legend status confirmed.
 

Demosthenes

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Yeah good point.

If you just remove England, Sri Lanka, Australia, Pakistan, UAE, Bangladesh and New Zealand from his record, he doesn’t average over 45 anywhere.
Sangakkara? He only averages 40 as a keeper to start with.

44 at home and 36 everywhere else is respectable, but a pretty clear indication that he cashes in on home decks.
 
May 5, 2016
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Sangakkara? He only averages 40 as a keeper to start with.

44 at home and 36 everywhere else is respectable, but a pretty clear indication that he cashes in on home decks.

I was talking in general.

If it is that easy to average high numbers on Sri Lankan decks, they all should be averaging more.

Instead, no other batsman in Sri Lankan history averages over 50 that I’m aware of, since Jayawardene and Samaraweera dipped late in their careers

So keeping the ‘with the gloves’ argument to the side for a moment, there doesn’t seem to be definitive proof that there is some dimensional advantage to batting there. I would say his record owes more to the natural inclination most, not all, players have towards their own conditions.

Maybe as a keeper he doesn’t cut it. I wouldn’t have him in the argument anyway.

But he has shown he can make runs in every kind of condition - even the nation’s where he’s been underwhelming - SA and India - he’s more than proven he can handle fast bouncy and seamer friendly conditions, as well as spin friendly conditions.

And as you point out his record with the gloves isn’t that great as a batsman.

So for him to finish with the record he has, proven all over the place, proves that he did anything but rely on fattening his average at home.
 
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Andy Flower - 4404 runs @ 53 (12 centuries/23 fifties)
AB De Villiers - 2067 runs @ 57 (7 centuries/7 half fifties)

Jonny Bairstow - 2312 runs @ 45.33 (4 centuries/12 fifties)
Matt Prior 4099 runs @ 40 (7 centuries/28 fifties)

Quentin De utensil 1554 runs @ 44 (3 centuries/11 fifties)


Take your pick who was the next best after Gilchrist.
 
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