Greatest Dynasty of the 21st century - Lions vs Cats vs Hawks vs Tigers

[Meteoric Rise]

Hope the salt tastes delicious.

The 'lucky loser' is not dissimilar to the Qualifying Final - you can only play by the rules of the day. Maybe Collingwood tanked in the first final, made their opposition leave everything on the park, knowing they would just go 'bang' in the return match up?

Fmd, where would Collingwood ever have got the brains to think of stuff like that?

 

[Noidnadroj]

Hope the salt tastes delicious.

The 'lucky loser' is not dissimilar to the Qualifying Final - you can only play by the rules of the day. Maybe Collingwood tanked in the first final, made their opposition leave everything on the park, knowing they would just go 'bang' in the return match up?

You think I’m salty from Collingwood’s 4-peat from 90-years ago..... sorry to disappoint you but not so much.

I actually think you have a reasonable point. Lose a single final you play in the granny. Win a single final you play in a granny. A completely pointless exercise for the Pies. May as well have just played the granny.




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[Noidnadroj]

This almost sounds like you think Geelong had both the most dominant season and the greatest season out of all seasons by teams in this thread

The most dominant 24 x games of footy I’ve seen was the Cats of 2008. Before that the Bombers of 2000, on the back of H&A dominance but more importantly 3 x finals floggings. It would stick in the craw of Bomber fans big time to leave that 1999-2001 era with only 1 flag given what a great team they were for so long.



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[Dale Doback]

Jesus these Richmond supporters are something else. Literally 4 years of good quality football in the last 40 years and they're suddenly the experts on all things AFL, including Grand Final match ups.

 

[Roby]

Jesus these Richmond supporters are something else. Literally 4 years of good quality football in the last 40 years and they're suddenly the experts on all things AFL, including Grand Final match ups.

Gee Geelong fans are something else, 3 flags in 50 years and all of sudden they're experts on all things AFL, soccer, basketball, olympics, politics...

 

[Fadge]

Gee Geelong fans are something else, 3 flags in 50 years and all of sudden they're experts on all things AFL, soccer, basketball, olympics, politics...

Pretty sure there's only one poster who's referred to the Chicago Bulls, AC Milan and Trump in this thread, as well as many other posts that are completely irrelevant, and I'm quoting him right now...

 

[Ricky Vaughn]

Gee Geelong fans are something else, 3 flags in 50 years and all of sudden they're experts on all things AFL, soccer, basketball, olympics, politics...

Spot on. Thanks Roby.

 

[Noidnadroj]

Jesus these Richmond supporters are something else. Literally 4 years of good quality football in the last 40 years and they're suddenly the experts on all things AFL, including Grand Final match ups.

Won a flag in 1980. Runners up in 1982. Prelim finals in 1995 and 2001. Won 15 games in each of 2013 and 2015 and finished 5th. Won last 9 games in a row of 2014 to play finals. Won flags in 2017/19/20. Made a prelim and finished 2 games clear on top in 2018. So in the last 40 years in regards to playing some quality football I count 11 years.

Even ignoring the elimination final exits it’s 8 years in prelim or better. It’s sort of close to 4... except it’s double


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[PhatBoy]

Let’s not forget PJays is counting the Cats’ MCG matches as away from their home ground. They played 34 matches there in the last 4 years of their dynasty, and 40 across the 5 years of their dynasty. A ground where you play 8.5 matches per season cannot properly be characterised as an away venue. And especially not when they are electing to play some home games there.

Other partial MCG tenants Carlton and Essendon played 43 and 41 games there respectively during those same seasons. So to characterise this an an away venue for Geelong post 2007(up to then it was,) is outrageously wrong.

They had a 32-8 record there during the period 2007-2011.

It is fairer to say Geelong only played 33 games during their dynasty period at grounds that were not

a) the ground they train at and play most home games, Cat Paddock,
b) the MCG from 2008 onwards where they were playing at least some home games in the regular season and ALL of their finals,
c) Docklands Stadium where they had played around 7-8 games per season until 2008, included within which for example was an away game against Richmond in 2007 on a ground that favoured the Cats heavily in terms of familiarity.
d) at a ground at least equally unfamiliar to the opponent

Their results from what you would fairly call away games where they were not fully familiar with the ground were:

2007 7-1
2008 5-0
2009 4-1
2010 3-2
2011 4-1

So the overall record looks brilliant at 23-5, yes that is right they played only 28 matches not at Kardinia Park, their new second home MCG from 2008 or against a team equally unfamiliar there in 2007, or their second home where they were playing 7-8 matches per season up until 2007, Docklands.

But let’s look further at those 28 matches, the real Geelong away game quota for their dynasty period.

2007

V Hawks in Tas lost by 4
v Port won by 56
v Crows won by 7
v Freo won by 68
v Brisbane won by 42
v Pies won by 16
v Demons won by 52
v Pies won by 5

7-1 overall, 4-1 v other finals teams, 2-1 matches decided by 11 points or less.

2008

v Port won by 9
v freo won by 1
v Eagles won by 135
v Crows won by 68
v Swans won by 39

5-0 overall, 2-0 v other finals teams, 1-0 matches decided by 11 points or less.

2009

v Crows won by 48
v Eagles won by 22
v Freo won by 19
v Lions lost by 43
v Swans won by 7

4-1 overall record. 1-1 v finals teams. 1-0 matches decided by 11 or less.

2010

V Freo lost by 7
v Lions won by 81
v Eagles won by 24
v Crows lost by 11
v Swans won by 53

3-2 overall record. v Finals teams 1-1. Decided by 11 or less 0-2.

2011

v Freo won by 11
v Sydney won by 27
v Suns won by 66
v Eagles lost by 8
v Lions won by 29

4-1 overall record. v Finals teams 1-1. Decided by 11 or less 1-1.

———————————————
So that is their 28 true away matches where the opposition could be said to have a clear home advantage in their dynasty period.

A very tidy 23 wins from 28 matches.

6-3 record v other finals teams. Good, but given these included non top 4 opponents, not anything to write home about.

5-4 in matches decided by 11 points or less so they had slightly the better of the close ones.

17-2 against non finals teams, including wins v Suns in their first year, and 8 other matches v bottom four teams which top four teams should never really be losing without some strong factors against them.

-------------------------------

So 6-3 v finals teams away.

9-0 v bottom four teams away.

8-2 v non finals/non bottom 4 teams away.

There is nothing wrong with that record at all, but it is not something that looks out of place for a team who is undeniably the strongest in the competition during the period. Especially when you consider any small benefit from close results fell Geelong’s way.

Richmond have already played 33 such matches in 4 years of their dynasty.

Lol.

This is by far the most extreme example of statistical cherry picking to suit an argument. And Geelong STILL comes out of it looking fantastic.

You’ve lot done a lot here to boost your claim

 

[Fadge]

Even ignoring the elimination final exits it’s 8 years in prelim or better. It’s sort of close to 4... except it’s double

Wow.

Eight Prelims or better in 40 years.

That's ......... phenomenal.

 

[Noidnadroj]

Wow.

Eight Prelims or better in 40 years.

That's ......... phenomenal.

Didn’t say it’s good. Our friend just said we’d played quality football in 4 of the last 40 seasons, when in fact it’s 11 of the past 40 seasons.

So I was just setting the record straight given 11 is 275% more than 4.

And how many teams have won more than 4 flags in the last 40 seasons? Ummm.... just the one.


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[Meteoric Rise]

Lol.

This is by far the most extreme example of statistical cherry picking to suit an argument. And Geelong STILL comes out of it looking fantastic.

You’ve lot done a lot here to boost your claim

I don’t get your post, please elaborate….

 

[Dale Doback]

Didn’t say it’s good. Our friend just said we’d played quality football in 4 of the last 40 seasons, when in fact it’s 11 of the past 40 seasons.

So I was just setting the record straight given 11 is 275% more than 4.

And how many teams have won more than 4 flags in the last 40 seasons? Ummm.... just the one.


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Bloody sorry mate. I should have trawled through the other 36 years of mediocre to sh!thouse Richmond football results to find the the other 4 prelims you made it to.

 

[PhatBoy]

I don’t get your post, please elaborate….

All the numbers you have posted are still very much painting Geelong in a positive light even before addressing the argument that the mcg is somehow an unofficial spiritual home

 

[Meteoric Rise]

All the numbers you have posted are still very much painting Geelong in a positive light even before addressing the argument that the mcg is somehow an unofficial spiritual home

Of course they paint Geelong in a positive light, I never said otherwise. In fact I said it looked an impressive record, just not outrageously so for such a strong team when you break down the opposition in the matches that were played on truly unfamiliar grounds.

I was also seeking to examine the overall “away” record as highlighted by yourself and others. The MCG and Docklands. Grounds that you play or have played 8 games per season are not grounds where you are giving up any sort of away venue disadvantage, do you not agree with that?

 

[smasha]

The difference between all these teams is Richmond’s dynasty is still going.

 

[calman]

Brisbane easily , why because 3 in a row, has only been achieved 4 times in 120 years, even in the amateur days when you could buy flags, it was almost impossible
The hawthorn juggernaut of the 80's who played in 7 GF in a row could not do it
History is littered with great teams who won back to back or 3 in 4 years, so far Richmond and Geelong nothing special comparing it to history
Richmond , win this year, then they join the elite group, until then just a team who had a hot streak for a few years, like many other champion teams before then

 

[Dr Tigris]

Brisbane easily , why because 3 in a row, has only been achieved 4 times in 120 years, even in the amateur days when you could buy flags, it was almost impossible
The hawthorn juggernaut of the 80's who played in 7 GF in a row could not do it
History is littered with great teams who won back to back or 3 in 4 years, so far Richmond and Geelong nothing special comparing it to history
Richmond , win this year, then they join the elite group, until then just a team who had a hot streak for a few years, like many other champion teams before then

Just for interests sake who else is on the list of 3 in 4 years. I suspect it's pretty few. But I don't know.

 

[Final Siren]

Just for interests sake who else is on the list of 3 in 4 years. I suspect it's pretty few. But I don't know.

Teams that won 3 flags in 4 years, not counting threepeats or 4peats, and without double-counting years:

• Melbourne 1955-1960 (5 flags in 6 years with a miss in the middle)
• Carlton 1979-1982 (lost 1980 to Richmond)
• Hawthorn 1986-1991 (4 flags in 6 years with misses in 1987 and 1990)
• Richmond 2017-2020

 

[Dr Tigris]

Teams that won 3 flags in 4 years, not counting threepeats or 4peats, and without double-counting years:

• Melbourne 1955-1960 (5 flags in 6 years with a miss in the middle)
• Carlton 1979-1982 (lost 1980 to Richmond)
• Hawthorn 1986-1991 (4 flags in 6 years with misses in 1987 and 1990)
• Richmond 2017-2020

Thanks FS. That's pretty good company.

One more and it's only Melbourne on that list. We'll see, at some point the music will stop. Although I hope it's a damn long tune for the Tigers

 

[Final Siren]

Thanks FS. That's pretty good company.

One more and it's only Melbourne on that list. We'll see, at some point the music will stop. Although I hope it's a damn long tune for the Tigers

Yeah, although realistically, we shouldn't exclude the 3-flags-in-3-years teams. That's what PJays does to make it seem like 3-from-5 is rare and exotic and therefore more valuable, but in reality, 3/3 is a subset of 3/4, so that is the shortest list, and it gets longer and longer as you allow more years.

3 flags in 3 years (6 teams):

• 1906-1908 Carlton
• 1927-1930 Collingwood (4peat)
• 1939-1941 Melbourne
• 1955-1957 Melbourne
• 2001-2003 Brisbane
• 2013-2015 Hawthorn

3 flags in 4 years (9 teams):

• 1906-1908 Carlton
• 1927-1930 Collingwood
• 1939-1941 Melbourne
• 1955-1960 Melbourne
• 1979-1982 Carlton
• 1986-1991 Hawthorn
• 2001-2003 Brisbane
• 2013-2015 Hawthorn
• 2017-2020 Richmond

3 flags in 5 years (12 teams):

• 1906-1908 Carlton
• 1927-1930 Collingwood
• 1939-1941 Melbourne
• 1946-1950 Essendon
• 1955-1960 Melbourne
• 1968-1972 Carlton
• 1979-1982 Carlton
• 1986-1991 Hawthorn
• 2001-2003 Brisbane
• 2007-2011 Geelong
• 2013-2015 Hawthorn
• 2017-2020 Richmond

3 flags in 6 years (14 teams):

• 1906-1908 Carlton
• 1927-1930 Collingwood
• 1939-1941 Melbourne
• 1946-1950 Essendon
• 1955-1957 Melbourne
• 1959-1964 Melbourne
• 1968-1972 Carlton
• 1969-1974 Richmond
• 1979-1982 Carlton
• 1986-1991 Hawthorn
• 2001-2003 Brisbane
• 2007-2011 Geelong
• 2013-2015 Hawthorn
• 2017-2020 Richmond

etc

 

[PJays]

Brisbane easily , why because 3 in a row, has only been achieved 4 times in 120 years, even in the amateur days when you could buy flags, it was almost impossible

Teams that won 3 flags in 4 years, not counting threepeats or 4peats, and without double-counting years:

• Melbourne 1955-1960 (5 flags in 6 years with a miss in the middle)
• Carlton 1979-1982 (lost 1980 to Richmond)
• Hawthorn 1986-1991 (4 flags in 6 years with misses in 1987 and 1990)
• Richmond 2017-2020

6 teams have won 3peats or 4peats:

Carlton 1906-1908
Collingwood 1927-1930
Melbourne 1939-1941
Melbourne 1955-1957
Brisbane 2001-2003
Hawthorn 2013-2015


How many teams have won flags in years 1 and 5 of any 5 year period with at least 1 flag in the middle?

Eg 3 in 5: WWLLW or WLWLW or WLLWW or 4 in 5: WLWWW or WWLWW or WWWLW

5:

Essendon- 1946, 1949, 1950
Melbourne- 5 in 6 1955 – 1960.
Carlton- 1968, 1970, 1972
Hawthorn didn’t achieve the above, but did 4 in 6 1986- 1991 which is better.
Geelong 2007, 2009, 2011.

Brisbane and Hawthorn backed up twice but Geelong had better longevity.

When you consider exactly how impressively Geelong won their 3 flags, and factoring in the strength the top 4 competition of the era they competed in, who cares if they didn’t win 3 in a row.

As I said a few pages ago, if Geelong had beaten Hawthorn in 2008 but lost to Collingwood in 2011, I wouldn’t consider them any greater, in fact I’d probably consider them a slightly lesser team. Yet if they'd won in 2008 they'd have a 3peat.

And I doubt Brisbane or Hawthorn would’ve won 3 in a row, if they had to play against Malthouse’s Pies 2010-2011, Lyon’s Saints 2009-2010 or Clarko’s Hawks from 2008 or 2011. Look at the teams Brisbane beat in 2002 and 2003, and Hawthorn beat in 2013 and 2015 and they don’t compare. (West Coast 2015 was awesome in Perth, not so great elsewhere).

Richmond had 3 in 4 which I don't think should be discounted against Hawthorn and Brisbane's efforts merely because they didn't win 3 consecutively.

It's not primarily about the order in which you win your flags, it's how many you win and how you win them.

Geelong's 2007 and 2011 flags were the most impressive flags of any in this discussion. 2007 destroying the competition with 19 wins from 20 games and 2 finals wins by 100+, and 2011 soundly defeating some of the best top 4 competition ever. 2009 wasn't bad either, beating a team who had lost 2 dead rubbers by a combined total of 7 points.

 

[Final Siren]

How many teams have won flags in years 1 and 5 of any 5 year period with at least 1 flag in the middle?

You are about five inches away from declaring that only one team has ever won flags in a WLWLW pattern while Jupiter is eclipsed by Venus, ergo they are the greatest of all time.

 

[Noidnadroj]

Bloody sorry mate. I should have trawled through the other 36 years of mediocre to sh!thouse Richmond football results to find the the other 4 prelims you made it to.

Just wanting a tiny semblance of accuracy.

For example... it would be accurate for me to say the Eagles choked in 2020. It would also be accurate for me to say the Eagles have 3 legitimate Premierships, as your mate Cuz, Norm Smith medallist Embley, Chick and friends were playing on god only knows what in 2006.


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[Noidnadroj]

You are about five inches away from declaring that only one team has ever won flags in a WLWLW pattern while Jupiter is eclipsed by Venus, ergo they are the greatest of all time.

Yeah, there are a couple of people on here who have convinced themselves that winning 3 flags over 5 years is just as ‘great’ as winning 3 in a row. So even if all other metrics were even, 3/3 v 3/5 would not be a tiebreaker. I think they may have even convinced themselves 3/5 reigns supreme.

I think they also believe 6/10 would be the equal of 6/6, because no-one has achieved either of those and 6/10 shows superior longevity .

Because it’s not about how difficult it was to achieve when you started on your run.... it’s about assessing it post achievement and then trying to cobble together arguments as to why 6/10 is just as ‘great’....




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