Greatest Dynasty of the 21st century - Lions vs Cats vs Hawks vs Tigers

[Fadge]

WTF. So Richmond’s 3.1.19 win over Geelong where Richmond had 5 more shots that actually scored, in a sudden death PF, is “far less impressive” than Collingwood’s 10 point level scores win against the Cats in a second chance match where the Cats had one more shot that scored.

Pardon me while I laugh myself to death.

See, that's the difference between you and me, Meteoric Ruse - I actually watch games of football to determine the quality of football being played, whilst you just look at the scoresheet.

Collingwood controlled the Qualifying Final against Geelong, getting out to an early ascendancy and maintaining a 3 to 4 goal lead throughout the entire match, with Geelong never threatening in a low scoring, defensive encounter.

Richmond, on the other hand, trailed Geelong for most of the night, hitting the lead just before 3/4 time and finding a way to win in the last quarter.

Sometimes you should try watching a game of football in order to make your judgements, instead of simply looking at a scoresheet....

 

[Fadge]

Ahahah. Yeah, we're the ones making ludicrous statements. Collingwood would've had no chance, on a 6 match winning streak and playing on neutral turf against a team they pummelled twice in the past 12 months.

Yep.

Unless you truly believe Richmond were somewhere between a 90% and 100% chance of winning the 2019 Grand Final, regardless of who they were playing, you are a complete nuffy.

Also, unless you either think Richmond are more likely than not to win the 2021 Grand Final, or that an 'absolute calamity' would need to happen for them not to win it, you are a certified moron.

 

[PJays]

Meteoric Ruse

That's a good one

 

[Meteoric Rise]

See, that's the difference between you and me, Meteoric Ruse - I actually watch games of football to determine the quality of football being played, whilst you just look at the scoresheet.

Collingwood controlled the Qualifying Final against Geelong, getting out to an early ascendancy and maintaining a 3 to 4 goal lead throughout the entire match, with Geelong never threatening in a low scoring, defensive encounter.

Richmond, on the other hand, trailed Geelong for most of the night, hitting the lead just before 3/4 time and finding a way to win in the last quarter.

Sometimes you should try watching a game of football in order to make your judgements, instead of simply looking at a scoresheet....

Meteoric Ruse, I like that, at last some humour from the man who aptly named himself after a part of the female anatomy, commonly known is rustic circles as a c*nt.

Ok, how silly of me, I forgot in the Fadge-PJFL, the 1/4 time, 1/2 time, 3/4 time scores count for more than the final scores. And the Fadge in game impression index is far more telling than the final score. If Fadge is watching a game of footy and he notices one team scores more early in the game, then that team is the rightful winner, of course. You know, that is why when a team gets a few goals ahead early in the match they just stop playing and declare them the winner.

WTF man, you are now coming across as deranged. I like the humour upgrade though.

 

[captain blood 17]

Ahahah. Yeah, we're the ones making ludicrous statements. Collingwood would've had no chance, on a 6 match winning streak and playing on neutral turf against a team they pummelled twice in the past 12 months including in a final.

Lel, here's some history given how little you know.
2015 - Richmond v Collingwood - Richmond win both games
2016 - 1 apiece
2017 - 1 love to the tigers
2018 - Tigers win both home and away games, Pies win the prelim
2019 - 1 win apiece
2020 - draw.
So to recap, since 2015, it's Richmond 7 wins, Coilingwood 3 wins and 1 draw. Go one, tell us again how Richmond "were lucky".
And R19 - 2019 -

Fri 26 Jul 7:50pm

Collingwood v Richmond

MCG

78722​

66-98​

A. Treloar 39

T. Lynch 5

 

[PJays]

Lel, here's some history given how little you know.
2015 - Richmond v Collingwood - Richmond win both games
2016 - 1 apiece
2017 - 1 love to the tigers
2018 - Tigers win both home and away games, Pies win the prelim
2019 - 1 win apiece
2020 - draw.
So to recap, since 2015, it's Richmond 7 wins, Coilingwood 3 wins and 1 draw. Go one, tell us again how Richmond "were lucky".

2015 - 2017 are irrelevant.

If the past 5 are relatively even there's no need to look back that far. Once Collingwood smashed them in a prelim and again early in 2019, games 4 years earlier with totally different line ups mean nothing.

In the eyes of this neutral fan when I'm analysing my tip early in the 2020 season, I'm seeing the H2H history between these teams as fairly even. Nothing that points in either direction.

The comparison was with GWS- what was their record against Richmond on the MCG?

 

[captain blood 17]

2015 - 2017 are irrelevant.

If the past 5 are relatively even there's no need to look back that far. Once Collingwood smashed them in a prelim and again early in 2019, games 4 years earlier with totally different line ups mean nothing.

In the eyes of this neutral fan when I'm analysing my tip early in the 2020 season, I'm seeing the H2H history between these teams as fairly even. Nothing that points in either direction.

The comparison was with GWS- what was their record against Richmond on the MCG?

2015-2017 aren't irrelevant as they establish a pattern. And a longer term one at that. And in 2019, we had literally poleaxed the pies 4 weeks before finals, so i don't see how you can discount one win over another. And keeping in mind the winning streak the tigers were on before and after that pies game. Far, far superior to Collingwood at the time. And the win by GWS v Collingwood in Melbourne further highlights how far off the pies actually were.
And as for GWS record at the G v the tigers, actually irrelevant, the real question that needs to be looked at is how is their over all record in general at the MCG? And when you see that, that highlights the magnificent achievement by GWS in 2019 to make it without Greene and Davies on one leg in the second half of that game.

 

[Elton Johns Wig]

This has been discussed already

Saints 2020 irrelevant, especially when missing Ryder (3rd B&F on votes/ game), Gresham and Carlisle. But diff yr, diff circumstances

You yourself claimed
Richmond was $1.50,
Coll $3
GWS $13 before Coll vs gws prelim

Rich went down to $1.40 when everyone found out they were playing GWS, but you don't think they would've gone up if people had found out they were playing Collingwood?

It would've been even money IF Collingwood had won their prelim over GWS by 10 goals. Or maybe Richmond $1.80, Coll $2.00. No strong favorite that's for sure.

If Coll won that prelim by 10 goals:

• Coll: 6 match winning streak with better prelim. Rich: 12 match winning streak with less convincing prelim.
• H2H record fairly even over past 5 games
• Both teams close to full strength. I think Coll was missing De Goey?
• Both MCG tenants
• Finals ability: Rich 2017 flag. Coll 2018 close GF loss. Both proven finals teams.

How could the odds NOT have been close to 50/50, given all key factors would’ve been fairly even?! Maybe Richmond slight advantage- $1.80 and Coll $2.00 given Rich had finished the year so well after getting their team back together.

Now if Coll had scraped through the prelim instead of GWS scraping through, suddenly Richmond has a sizeable advantage with form. So therefore Richmond ~$1.70 and Coll ~$2.20.

Saints irrelevant because injuries to Ryder etc, right?

2015 - 2017 are irrelevant.

If the past 5 are relatively even there's no need to look back that far. Once Collingwood smashed them in a prelim and again early in 2019, games 4 years earlier with totally different line ups mean nothing.

In the eyes of this neutral fan when I'm analysing my tip early in the 2020 season, I'm seeing the H2H history between these teams as fairly even. Nothing that points in either direction.

The comparison was with GWS- what was their record against Richmond on the MCG?

But early 2019 game, the week after we lost our generational fullback, because we got smashed, the result remains relevant?


A great example of you fitting the argument to your narrative.


According to your earlier post, under YOUR conditions, the R2 2019 loss to Pies is irrelevant, because of Rance injury. Thank you, we got there.

And it was PROVEN irrelevant, after adjusting to life without Rance, when we smoked them later that year.


Thank you for providing the clarity via the Saints to put the true Pies/Tiges form into line.

 

[PJays]

2015-2017 aren't irrelevant as they establish a pattern. And a longer term one at that. And in 2019, we had literally poleaxed the pies 4 weeks before finals, so i don't see how you can discount one win over another. And keeping in mind the winning streak the tigers were on before and after that pies game. Far, far superior to Collingwood at the time. And the win by GWS v Collingwood in Melbourne further highlights how far off the pies actually were.
And as for GWS record at the G v the tigers, actually irrelevant, the real question that needs to be looked at is how is their over all record in general at the MCG? And when you see that, that highlights the magnificent achievement by GWS in 2019 to make it without Greene and Davies on one leg in the second half of that game.

GWS had 3 wins on the MCG since 2015.

3 wins, 9 losses.

And they'd never beaten Richmond on the MCG in their entire history.

You still think Richmond wasn't lucky to be playing them and not Collingwood?

And for most of 2015-2017 Richmond were a much better team. Collingwood missed finals all 3 years, Richmond had a 15-7 year in 2015 and won flag in 2017. When both teams were strong across 2018 and 2019 the H2H was basically even.

I'm sure Brisbane has a bad H2H against most teams right now if you go back 5 or 6 years. But that's irrelevant, they're one of the top teams heading into 2021. I don't care what happened in 2016. Similar applies when comparing results against Collingwood 2015-2017 and Collingwood 2018-2019.

 

[PJays]

Saints irrelevant because injuries to Ryder etc, right?

But early 2019 game, the week after we lost our generational fullback, because we got smashed, the result remains relevant?


A great example of you fitting the argument to your narrative.


According to your earlier post, under YOUR conditions, the R2 2019 loss to Pies is irrelevant, because of Rance injury. Thank you, we got there.

And it was PROVEN irrelevant, after adjusting to life without Rance, when we smoked them later that year.


Thank you for providing the clarity via the Saints to put the true Pies/Tiges form into line.

Go back to your impartiality act, at least you were faking it and occasionally succeeding. Posts like this are boringly familiar, biased nonsense like your fellow Richmond woofers.

I love it- Richmond fans instructing a Saints fan on how to read the form line between Richmond and Collingwood! All the excuses when Richmond get thrashed, but want to talk about 2015-2017 when Collingwood were finishing 12th and 13th.

This forum is too predictable

 

[Noidnadroj]

Geelong and Hawthorn fans absolutely don’t vote for each other

in fact Hawthorn posters vote either Hawthorn or Brisbane (threepeat factor, you take threepeat is minimum, then chose hawks or lions)

Richmond posters the most likely to select another team (of the 4 sets) Brisbane overwhelmingly the choice in the other 14 sets of posters.

A poll like this is not very enlightening. Richmond supporters would currently be insufferable, and many opposition supporters have just had their flag chances ruined by them. Brisbane are such an inoffensive team without any great rivalry ... and they did us all a favour by twice beating the Pies.

Let’s put it this way .... if you asked people who is the better player, Nathan Buckley or Lachie Neale, I’d bet 80% of neutrals would vote for Neale as people don’t like Buckley and/or the Pies, but Neale is completely inoffensive to everyone.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[captain blood 17]

GWS had 3 wins on the MCG since 2015.

3 wins, 9 losses.

And they'd never beaten Richmond on the MCG in their entire history.

You still think Richmond wasn't lucky to be playing them and not Collingwood?

And for most of 2015-2017 Richmond were a much better team. Collingwood missed finals all 3 years, Richmond had a 15-7 year in 2015 and won flag in 2017. When both teams were strong across 2018 and 2019 the H2H was basically even.

I'm sure Brisbane has a bad H2H against most teams right now if you go back 5 or 6 years. But that's irrelevant, they're one of the top teams heading into 2021. I don't care what happened in 2016. Similar applies when comparing results against Collingwood 2015-2017 and Collingwood 2018-2019.

As i have proven with facts, either way (v GWS or Collingwood), Richmond were never going to lose 2019. Geelong was the second best team in the comp. We handled them in the prelim. Collingwood were lucky they didn't make the GF for what would of happened. You said they were on a streak in 2019. What type of streak is it when the eventual premiers hand your arse back to you on a plate by 5+ goals in super wet conditions in R19? And how bad were Collingwood to be beaten by a team without one of their top 4 players and their best defender and leader on one leg in the second half? How is it even conceivable they were going to be competitive (in a hypothetical world) when they couldn't even beat a team with a record you have highlighted? It's a nonsensical argument. Good day to you sir.

 

[captain blood 17]

Go back to your impartiality act, at least you were faking it and occasionally succeeding. Posts like this are boringly familiar, biased nonsense like your fellow Richmond woofers.

I love it, Richmond fans instructing a Saints fan on how to read the form line between Richmond and Collingwood. All the excuses when Richmond get thrashed, but want to talk about 2015-2017 when Collingwood were finishing 12th and 13th.

This forum is too predictable

No excuses, we just killed your BS hypothetical argument with actual facts. The stuff you can't seem to deal with.

 

[Roby]

A poll like this is not very enlightening. Richmond supporters would currently be insufferable, and many opposition supporters have just had their flag chances ruined by them. Brisbane are such an inoffensive team without any great rivalry ... and they did us all a favour by twice beating the Pies.

Let’s put it this way .... if you asked people who is the better player, Nathan Buckley or Lachie Neale, I’d bet 80% of neutrals would vote for Neale as people don’t like Buckley and/or the Pies, but Neale is completely inoffensive to everyone.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

Who would this and vote for Neale? No way.

 

[PJays]

As i have proven with facts, either way (v GWS or Collingwood), Richmond were never going to lose 2019.

Oh right. So your hypothetical scenario is an indisputable fact.

Apologies! I'll pipe down then.

Geelong was the second best team in the comp. We handled them in the prelim.

Were they? You say this with such confidence? Collingwood handled them in the qualifying final.

How is it even conceivable they were going to be competitive (in a hypothetical world) when they couldn't even beat a team with a record you have highlighted? It's a nonsensical argument. Good day to you sir.

How long have you been following sport?

If the answer is "longer than a week" then you would've already realized why this argument is nonsense.

Strange results happen all the time. Form gets thrown out the window. Teams go on winning streaks and then lose. Results are reversed from the last time teams played. There's lots of variables at play. We can't say who would've won a hypothetical matchup in the 2019 Grand Final.

But we can say this. From all appearances Collingwood would've had a much better chance of beating Richmond than GWS.

 

[PJays]

No excuses, we just killed your BS hypothetical argument with actual facts. The stuff you can't seem to deal with.

I don't think you know what a fact is.....

 

[PJays]

OK, the facts.

Richmond players used in season 2019 = 39

AFL ranking for most players used = equal 1st along with Melbourne(17th) and St Kilda 14th.

Other occasions where the Premier has the most or equal most players used in the competition across the season in 124 years of history = 0.00000000000000

Automatic best 22 players at start of season games missed through unavailability:

Grimes 1
Castagna 1
Edwards 1
Vlastuin 1
Martin 2
Astbury 3
Houli 3
Lambert 4
Short 9
Cotchin 11
Riewoldt 12
Higgins 12
Nankervis 13
Rance 24
Grigg 25

Total automatic best 22 at start of season games missed = 122, which is extremely high.

Richmond had a 3 player leadership structure, all noted champions, all highly decorated with industry and club awards, Rance, Riewoldt, Cotchin.

Total games missed by that trio = 47(of 75 possible) so collectively the 3 champion leaders played little more than 1/3rd of the season.

Total players characterised as automatic best 22 at start of season, ie never not selected at any material time when available and fully fit = 17

Lynch, Prestia, Grimes, Castagna, Edwards, Vlastuin, Martin, Astbury, Houli, Lambert, Short, Riewoldt, Cotchin, Riewoldt, Higgins, Nankervis, Rance.

Average games missed by that group = over 7, roughly 33% of the regular season missed by the players who entered the season as automatic best 22.

Other notable players to miss with injuries:

Ross missed more than half the season after an extremely promising first 7 games. He was never fully right again after a serious foot injury.

Stack has missed the last 5 games of the season including all finals in a year he finished 3rd in the Rising Star out of an extremely strong draft pool.

Jack Graham missed the Grand Final and was badly hampered for more than half the PF when he dislocated his shoulder.

That is all factual.

After the mid season bye, when Richmond were able to rest some battered players and also get some players back from injury, despite:

Rance and Grigg never playing in this period,

Cotchin missing 3 games,

Riewoldt missing two games,

Nankervis missing 8 games,

Stack missing 5 games,

Ross missing 10 games,

Graham missing the Grand Final,

Higgins missing 12 games,

the club still managed to go 12-0 with a percentage of 165%, with no less than 7 of those 12 matches being against finals teams, and an 8th victory against Port Adelaide who finished 10th with a positive w/l-percentage combination. The Richmond percentage in this period was barely boosted by games against lower clubs. Richmond’s percentage in the 7 matches played against finalists in this period = 158%. Nobody was beating Richmond in the 2019 finals PJays and Fadge .

And Richmond you are telling us were lucky in 2019. And your lemon mate Fadge reckons that is nothing because “all teams have injuries.”

F*cking comedy duo.

Richmond were by that far the best team in the competition in 2019 it is not funny, and god only knows what they might have done if not so badly affected by injuries. But at the end of the day all they could have achieved over and above what they did was more meaningless home and away wins, or in the context of this thread, more “Geelong” wins.

You say all this with the benefit of hindsight, knowing Richmond destroyed a team who:

• Had a 13-9 record
• Scraped in the GF with 2 wins by 3 and 4 pts with less i50’s and scoring shots (which surely according to your own criteria makes them one of the worst Grand Finalists ever?).
• Missing Coniglio and Deledio. Yes Deledio was old and had an injury riddled last few years, but don’t discount the value of veteran presence in finals ala Dew 2008.
• 3-9 record at MCG since 2015. 3 wins in 5 years.

Sydney’s 2014 season, Collingwood’s 2003 season and Port’s 2007 season show us that teams enter Grand Finals in impeccable form dating back many months and end up getting spanked.

It’s all hypothetical yes. But Richmond luckily avoided their biggest threat in the 2019 finals.

Higgins was a kid in his 2nd season. No kid is “automatic best 22”, even if he was awesome in 2018. It’s only one season. He wasn’t a guy who had proven himself consistently over many years. So I object to his inclusion but otherwise, of 16 players:

2 played every game,
4 missed 1 game,
1 missed 2 games,
3 missed 3 or 4 games.
6 missed 9 games or more including 2 who missed virtually the entire year.

If I was looking at Richmond’s season in its entirety:

• Unlucky having significant injuries in the first half of the season.
• Lucky they had a fresh and healthy list for finals (Except Grigg and Rance who both ended up retiring after missing the year. They could adequately cover for Rance, having other quality defenders).
• Lucky they played in a season without a top shelf challenger.
• Lucky they got arguably the weakest GF opponent of the AFL era.
• Lucky a team who’d smashed them twice in the prior 12 months (including a final) was pipped in the prelim.

I guess everybody will weigh those factors according to their own perspective. For mine, of most importance in this dynasty discussion:

• Richmond was unlucky having the single worst year with injuries that any of these teams had in their successful eras.
• Richmond is unlucky the COVID year happened when they were at their peak, putting them at a disadvantage compared to teams like Brisbane and Port, and they overcame it.

But

• Richmond is lucky they’ve played in an era without top shelf challengers like Lyon’s Saints, Clarkson’s Hawks and Malthouse’s Pies. If teams like that were around, no way Richmond has 3 flags.
• Lucky they’ve played a bunch of “away” finals on the MCG. Especially in 2017 when the cards could’ve fallen in various directions but instead of travelling interstate they got to play a “away” home QF and then an “away” home GF.

Again, people can weigh those factors as they wish.

 

[Roby]

Sorry Roby, they are still in a bedroom conference trying to formulate their joint and several responses. Will let you know.

I guess I just gave them a paradox they can't solve in their convoluted heads.

 

[Fadge]

Lel, here's some history given how little you know.
2015 - Richmond v Collingwood - Richmond win both games
2016 - 1 apiece
2017 - 1 love to the tigers
2018 - Tigers win both home and away games, Pies win the prelim
2019 - 1 win apiece
2020 - draw.
So to recap, since 2015, it's Richmond 7 wins, Coilingwood 3 wins and 1 draw. Go one, tell us again how Richmond "were lucky".
And R19 - 2019 -

Fri 26 Jul 7:50pm

Collingwood v Richmond

MCG

78722​

66-98​

A. Treloar 39

T. Lynch 5

Hmmmm. The start of 2015 seems to the naked eye to be an unusual starting point for this analysis. It has absolutely no relevance to the discussion at hand, nor the thread topic.

Why would a Richmond supporter select such a date as the starting point, I wonder

Is there any coincidence that if you were to go back any further, we see that Collingwood won the preceding 7 matches?

Of more interest, the AFL only scheduled one game per year between Collingwood and Richmond between 2008 and 2014 (which is why there were only 7 matches over that period), such was the mismatch between the teams. And of course, Collingwood didn't encounter Richmond in any Finals during that time, of which we played plenty...

 

[captain blood 17]

Oh right. So your hypothetical scenario is an indisputable fact.

Apologies! I'll pipe down then.



Were they? You say this with such confidence? Collingwood handled them in the qualifying final.


How long have you been following sport?

If the answer is "longer than a week" then you would've already realized why this argument is nonsense.

Strange results happen all the time. Form gets thrown out the window. Teams go on winning streaks and then lose. Results are reversed from the last time teams played. There's lots of variables at play. We can't say who would've won a hypothetical matchup in the 2019 Grand Final.

But we can say this. From all appearances Collingwood would've had a much better chance of beating Richmond than GWS.

Well, the FACTS are we pounded the pies in R19. We were on a 9 game winning streak leading into finals. We won the flag. Collingwood were on a 4 game winning streak (after R19) beating GC at the G, Melbourne at the G, Adelaide at Adelaide and Essendon at the G. All mega soft kills. They beat Geelong by 10 points in the qualifying final and then lose to GWS in a prelim.
We smoked Brisbane in Brisbane in our qualifying final (you know, tiger can't win away from the G etc etc).
There is no form line or anything other than bias and hypothetical rubbish to support your claims. Collingwood lost to GWS at home in wet conditions in the prelim. GWS were missing Greene, Davis was crook on one leg for half a game and Kelly had a bung hammy. And still Collingwood couldn't win. And you're telling us Pies could roll Richmond? Laughable at best.

 

[captain blood 17]

I don't think you know what a fact is.....

Yeah, it's the stuff i put into an argument that defeats your hypothetical rhetoric.

 

[captain blood 17]

Hmmmm. The start of 2015 seems to the naked eye to be an unusual starting point for this analysis. It has absolutely no relevance to the discussion at hand, nor the thread topic.

Why would a Richmond supporter select such a date as the starting point, I wonder

Is there any coincidence that if you were to go back any further, we see that Collingwood won the preceding 7 matches?

Of more interest, the AFL only scheduled one game per year between Collingwood and Richmond between 2008 and 2014 (which is why there were only 7 matches over that period), such was the mismatch between the teams. And of course, Collingwood didn't encounter Richmond in any Finals during that time, of which we played plenty...

Well it's about establishing some form of recency. That's what the point is. But i suspect that's over your head.

 

[Fadge]

I guess I just gave them a paradox they can't solve in their convoluted heads.

Yep, that's exactly it....

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Oh right. So your hypothetical scenario is an indisputable fact.

Apologies! I'll pipe down then.



Were they? You say this with such confidence? Collingwood handled them in the qualifying final.


How long have you been following sport?

If the answer is "longer than a week" then you would've already realized why this argument is nonsense.

Strange results happen all the time. Form gets thrown out the window. Teams go on winning streaks and then lose. Results are reversed from the last time teams played. There's lots of variables at play. We can't say who would've won a hypothetical matchup in the 2019 Grand Final.

But we can say this. From all appearances Collingwood would've had a much better chance of beating Richmond than GWS.

Collingwood’s finals series was they fell in to beat a losing Preliminary Finalist, and got beaten by a team who got marmalised in the GF and had a load of gun players missing in the match against Collingwood. And they are going to beat a team who has had 3 big finals wins, to win one of 3 flags in four years and finished the season with 12 consecutive wins, 7 of those against finals teams, and a percentage of 165% in those 12 matches and over 200% in the finals, despite having plenty of injury absences along the way? Like you do realise this is Collingwood and a Grand Final we are discussing here. They have won one of their last 14.

You are a fair dinkum galah.

 

[Fadge]

Well it's about establishing some form of recency. That's what the point is. But i suspect that's over your head.

And it was just coincidence that you started at 2015, right?