Greatest Dynasty of the 21st century - Lions vs Cats vs Hawks vs Tigers

Which dynasty is the greatest?


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May 5, 2016
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Interesting article.

Criteria is:
Each team in top 10 can only be listed once;
Team cannot have won a premiership in the year prior or after.

So excludes teams like Collingwood 2011, Geelong 2008, Essendon 2001.

In Summary:
- Saints 2009 rated best team not to win the flag.
- Bulldogs 2010 included, with a note the 2009 team could have just as easily been selected.
- No mention of any teams in the 2017 to 2020 years.


Among a host of interesting things in that article, none go quite as close to surprising me as this:

Steven Motlop made the AA squad.
 

Final Siren

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Aug 18, 2009
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Interesting article.

Criteria is:
Each team in top 10 can only be listed once;
Team cannot have won a premiership in the year prior or after.

So excludes teams like Collingwood 2011, Geelong 2008, Essendon 2001.

In Summary:
- Saints 2009 rated best team not to win the flag.
- Bulldogs 2010 included, with a note the 2009 team could have just as easily been selected.
- No mention of any teams in the 2017 to 2020 years.
Holy hell, I know it's subjective, but there are some real howlers on this list to me. Fremantle 2015 were an absolute shell of a team by the time they limped into finals - and they're the 6th best since 2000?

The criteria are pretty distorting, too. St Kilda 2009 are #1 but wouldn't be on the list at all if the ball bounced the other way 12 months later.
 

Goggin Our Best

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The thread is clearly about premiership success. I’m not even arguing about who is better out of the nominated teams as all are remarkable for the achievements. Results talk, bullshit walks. Collingwood are on the edge of imploding. For all the big club talk, WCE, Hawthorn, Richmond are all currently . Just wait and see what happens if Carlton and Essendon can get their acts together. It is quite possible at seasons end Buckley is go

Yeah - and Harold Holt is going to walk out of the surf at Portsea
 

Fadge

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Yeah - and Harold Holt is going to walk out of the surf at Portsea
Yep, there was a lot of salt and hope in that post.

In the same way that people have been tipping (a.k.a. hoping) Geelong to fall of the edge of the cliff for the past 10 years, it seems a Collingwood implosion is flavour of the month this off season, with the likes of Carlton and Melbourne taking our place in the top 8.

😮😮😮😮

And what does 'imploding' mean anyway? Does it mean we're going to be a laughing stock for 35 years and never contend for a flag in that time?
 

Noidnadroj

Norm Smith Medallist
Dec 8, 2020
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Oh boy.

The delusion never ceases to amaze....

And with regard to this specific conclusion, finals performances don't appear to be relevant or important?!?

One day you’ll need to accept that Richmond are a great football team. Their 2017 and 2019 flags that bookmarked 2018 are proven to be one of the most dominant flag combo’s in VFL/AFL history - their % of 190% for the 6-0 finals is a superior percentage to Geelong of 2007 & 2009. Then the year in the middle we finish 2 games and huge percentage clear on top and you claim any suggestion this team is one of the best to not win a flag since 2000 is delusional....

I know it hurts, but at some stage you need to stop denying what the actual facts continually throw in your face.



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Roby

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One day you’ll need to accept that Richmond are a great football team. Their 2017 and 2019 flags that bookmarked 2018 are proven to be one of the most dominant flag combo’s in VFL/AFL history - their % of 190% for the 6-0 finals is a superior percentage to Geelong of 2007 & 2009. Then the year in the middle we finish 2 games and huge percentage clear on top and you claim any suggestion this team is one of the best to not win a flag since 2000 is delusional....

I know it hurts, but at some stage you need to stop denying what the actual facts continually throw in your face.



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Lol. Facts.😂
 

Fadge

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One day you’ll need to accept that Richmond are a great football team. Their 2017 and 2019 flags that bookmarked 2018 are proven to be one of the most dominant flag combo’s in VFL/AFL history - their % of 190% for the 6-0 finals is a superior percentage to Geelong of 2007 & 2009. Then the year in the middle we finish 2 games and huge percentage clear on top and you claim any suggestion this team is one of the best to not win a flag since 2000 is delusional....

I know it hurts, but at some stage you need to stop denying what the actual facts continually throw in your face.
Yes, Richmond have been a very good football team over the past four seasons.

Based on the way I and others rate teams who contend for each year's premiership, I would place Richmond 2018 after the following other teams who failed to win the Premiership:
Geelong 2008
Collingwood 2011
Essendon 2001
Brisbane 2004
St. Kilda 2009
St. Kilda 2010
Hawthorn 2012
Sydney 2014

However, you guys have spent the entire thread downplaying (in fact scoffing at) our assessment as to the quality of many of the above teams, based on their finals performances 'allegedly' not aligning with their home and away performances, but you now want to use our way of assessing teams when considering the strength of the Richmond 2018 team?

Do you see how that makes you appear somewhat disingenuous?
 
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BF Tiger

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Yes, Richmond have been a very good football team over the past four seasons.

Based on the way I and others rate teams who contend for each year's premiership, I would place Richmond 2018 after the following other teams who failed to win the Premiership...

Just some facts and figures that don't support your assessment...

Geelong 2008 - 21/1, four games and 30% ahead of second placed Hawthorn
Collingwood 2011 - 20/2, finished 1 game and 10% ahead of second place Geelong
Essendon 2001 - 17/5, equal with Brisbane, took first place by 7%
Brisbane 2004 - 16/6, finished second 1 game behind Port
St. Kilda 2009 - 20/2, two games and 28% ahead of second placed Geelong
St. Kilda 2010 - 15/6/1, finished 3rd two games and 20% behind Collingwood and 1.5 games and 26% behind Geelong
Hawthorn 2012 - 17/5, finished first ahead of 17/5 Adelaide by 22%
Sydney 2014 - 17/5, finished first ahead of 17/5 Hawthorn by 2%
Richmond 2018 - 18/4, two games and 15% ahead of second placed WCE

Based on games won Richmond come in fourth, but you have them behind teams that won 2 and 3 games less.
Based on games clear Richmond come in equal second, but you have them behind teams that finished second and third.
Cats and Tigers are the only teams on the list to win flags in the year before and after, yet we're behind a team that didn't win a flag at all.
 

Fadge

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Just some facts and figures that don't support your assessment...

Geelong 2008 - 21/1, four games and 30% ahead of second placed Hawthorn
Collingwood 2011 - 20/2, finished 1 game and 10% ahead of second place Geelong
Essendon 2001 - 17/5, equal with Brisbane, took first place by 7%
Brisbane 2004 - 16/6, finished second 1 game behind Port
St. Kilda 2009 - 20/2, two games and 28% ahead of second placed Geelong
St. Kilda 2010 - 15/6/1, finished 3rd two games and 20% behind Collingwood and 1.5 games and 26% behind Geelong
Hawthorn 2012 - 17/5, finished first ahead of 17/5 Adelaide by 22%
Sydney 2014 - 17/5, finished first ahead of 17/5 Hawthorn by 2%
Richmond 2018 - 18/4, two games and 15% ahead of second placed WCE

Based on games won Richmond come in fourth, but you have them behind teams that won 2 and 3 games less.
Based on games clear Richmond come in equal second, but you have them behind teams that finished second and third.
Cats and Tigers are the only teams on the list to win flags in the year before and after, yet we're behind a team that didn't win a flag at all.
Nice research, but I consider both home and away games AND finals performances.

You honestly believe a team who was marginally better in home and away games who didn't make the Grand Final, and in fact were belted in the Preliminary Final by the team that lost the Grand Final, to be rated ahead of other teams with similar (if not slightly lesser) home and away performances, but close Grand Final losses against better quality Grand Final opponents?

That is the conclusion one can make after analysing ALL the data.
 
Apr 20, 2014
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However, you guys have spent the entire thread downplaying (in fact scoffing at) our assessment as to the quality of many of the above teams, based on their finals performances 'allegedly' not aligning with their home and away performances, but you now want to use our way of assessing teams when considering the strength of the Richmond 2018 team?

Do you see how that makes you appear somewhat disingenuous?
Karl Marx: “Accuse Your Enemy Of What You Are Doing, As You Are Doing It To Create Confusion”

Right back at you cowboy. You've spent the whole thread downplaying ANYTHING Richmond.

Anyway. Fun times.
 
Feb 4, 2008
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Yes, Richmond have been a very good football team over the past four seasons.

Based on the way I and others rate teams who contend for each year's premiership, I would place Richmond 2018 after the following other teams who failed to win the Premiership:
Geelong 2008
Collingwood 2011
Essendon 2001
Brisbane 2004
St. Kilda 2009
St. Kilda 2010
Hawthorn 2012
Sydney 2014

However, you guys have spent the entire thread downplaying (in fact scoffing at) our assessment as to the quality of many of the above teams, based on their finals performances 'allegedly' not aligning with their home and away performances, but you now want to use our way of assessing teams when considering the strength of the Richmond 2018 team?

Do you see how that makes you appear somewhat disingenuous?

This clown seems to think every Richmond supporter on the thread rates teams EXACTLY the same way, and all their ratings systems are designed with one thing in mind, to boost Richmond’s status.

Fadge you are showing your own ignorance and bias here. Anything indicating “Richmond supporter” you are just trying to oppose as if anything any of us have argued we ALL believe.

I don’t rate the Richmond 2018 team, because they were not very good when it mattered. But it is very obvious they were a good side/list etc overall because of what happened in the preceding and following years. So whatever was wrong with them in the 2018 finals it wasn’t that they weren't good enough.

Plenty of Richmond supporters on this thread have shown a liking to rating teams according to their home and away achievements, not dissimilar to you. It is not like we all have meetings and try to figure out how we can make a concerted effort to gang up on you and your Tinder date PJays. 😂😂

You also constantly accuse Richmond supporters including myself of trying to elevate the Tigers above the other dynasties. Some Richmond supporters genuinely think Richmond rate top, some think we rate bottom, some think we should wait until the dynasty is over. There is not one prevailing “Richmond supporter view,” which is what your hysterical posts seem to be claiming.

Loads of people think if Richmond win another flag in the next two years we are automatically the best dynasty. I think if we did that and nothing else of note it is still not straightforward v the Hawks.

You and PJays are so busy trying to force your narrow and hastily arrived at views on everyone that you perceive almost anyone disagreeing is doing the same. We aren’t. 😉
 

Fadge

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This clown seems to think every Richmond supporter on the thread rates teams EXACTLY the same way, and all their ratings systems are designed with one thing in mind, to boost Richmond’s status.

Fadge you are showing your own ignorance and bias here. Anything indicating “Richmond supporter” you are just trying to oppose as if anything any of us have argued we ALL believe.

I don’t rate the Richmond 2018 team, because they were not very good when it mattered. But it is very obvious they were a good side/list etc overall because of what happened in the preceding and following years. So whatever was wrong with them in the 2018 finals it wasn’t that they weren't good enough.

Plenty of Richmond supporters on this thread have shown a liking to rating teams according to their home and away achievements, not dissimilar to you. It is not like we all have meetings and try to figure out how we can make a concerted effort to gang up on you and your Tinder date PJays. 😂😂

You also constantly accuse Richmond supporters including myself of trying to elevate the Tigers above the other dynasties. Some Richmond supporters genuinely think Richmond rate top, some think we rate bottom, some think we should wait until the dynasty is over. There is not one prevailing “Richmond supporter view,” which is what your hysterical posts seem to be claiming.

Loads of people think if Richmond win another flag in the next two years we are automatically the best dynasty. I think if we did that and nothing else of note it is still not straightforward v the Hawks.

You and PJays are so busy trying to force your narrow and hastily arrived at views on everyone that you perceive almost anyone disagreeing is doing the same. We aren’t. 😉
So you took the leap to equate 'you guys' to mean 'every Richmond supporter'?

Why would you do that?

I can tell you why - to prove a point that isn't there to be proven.

And it's not the first time for you in this thread, and suggest it won't be the last...
 
Feb 4, 2008
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So you took the leap to equate 'you guys' to mean 'every Richmond supporter'?

Why would you do that?

I can tell you why - to prove a point that isn't there to be proven.

And it's not the first time for you in this thread, and suggest it won't be the last...

Now you are being dishonest.
 

BF Tiger

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Nice research, but I consider both home and away games AND finals performances.

You honestly believe a team who was marginally better in home and away games who didn't make the Grand Final, and in fact were belted in the Preliminary Final by the team that lost the Grand Final, to be rated ahead of other teams with similar (if not slightly lesser) home and away performances, but close Grand Final losses against better quality Grand Final opponents?

That is the conclusion one can make after analysing ALL the data.
If you’re looking at ALL the data you’d be considering the flag immediately before and the two flags immediately after, yeah?
 
Feb 4, 2008
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If you’re looking at ALL the data you’d be considering the flag immediately before and the two flags immediately after, yeah?

Ahem…I think you meant the two flags immediately after, so far there BF Tiger. 😁

Without wanting to put words into the mouth of dear old Fudge, what he means is he looks at ALL the data that is consistent with his loathing of all things Richmond and adoring obsession of all things Collingwood, and his allegedly successful wannabe team-by-proxy champion of the great trio of finals chokers(Pies, Saints, Cats) the Geelong Cats Football Club.

So these things don’t count:

Richmond 2017-19-20 Premierships

Richmond 2018 Minor Premiership

Richmond 2019 VFL Premiership 😍😍

Richmond coruscating run to finals 2019, 20.

Richmond dynasty team Brownlow Medals, Coleman Medals, Golden Fists.

One of only three dynasty clubs this century with:

Triple Premiership Coach and Triple Premiership Captain(one of the so called dynasty teams curiously has NEITHER)

Richmond uniquely nominating in advance how many Premierships would be won and by when.

The collective dominance of Richmond’s finals wins leading to their Premierships.

Richmond Premiership winning specialist Marlion Pickett experiencing three times more Grand Final success in a 13 month career than Collingwood Football Club has enjoyed in 62 years.

Say that again Meteoric.

OK, in a 13 month career with Richmond, Marlion Pickett has won three times as many Grand Finals as Collingwood FC has won in 62 years, three times as many as St Kilda in 148 years and as many as the Choker’s Association pin-up club the Geelong Cats in the last 57 years.

The scintillating confirmed form of two of Richmond’s vanquished Runners-up prior to the Tigers performing x-rated acts upon them in their respective Grand Finals. 😁😁😁. I mean when did Geelong ever stand up to anything as frightening as the Crow stance and….hang on, didn’t the Cats get destroyed psychologically by the Crow stance a mere one week prior in the 2017 Preliminary final???

Richmond not having a negative Grand Final score sheet v any club in the last 76 years. 😁😎😁

Collingwood not having a positive Grand Final scoresheet versus any phukker since Moses was rocking to the Wiggles. 😂😂😂

And on and on it goes BF Tiger but alas, you will find none of this data counts for much in the eyes of the ALL data considering Fudge, he of the admirable exclusive undivided loyalty to his beloved Collingwood Football Club….and Geelong Football Club….and PJays. 😂😂😂
 
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Fadge

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If you’re looking at ALL the data you’d be considering the flag immediately before and the two flags immediately after, yeah?
Hmmmm.

I know Meteoric Ruse's bosom buddy Roby strongly consider's a team's performance one/two/three years before and after to determine how good they were in a specfic year, but that probably tells you all you need to know about the validity of that approach given he is arguably THE most illogical poster on this site.

Football changes so quickly week to week, month to month. Let alone year to year.

I look at finals performance and home and away dominance to determine the level of a team's performance in a given year.

As an example, you'll notice I excluded Geelong 2010 from my above list, despite them being far more dominant than Richmond in the surrounding years, and despite the fact they were beaten in the Preliminary Final by the eventual Premier.

Please tell me, which of the eight teams I listed above, who had either better or slightly lesser home and away performances, and far superior finals performances in that they actually made the Grand Final and generally had close losses should be rated below the Richmond 2018 team who were belted in the Preliminary Final by a team who were beaten in that year's Grand Final?!?
 
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Noidnadroj

Norm Smith Medallist
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Yes, Richmond have been a very good football team over the past four seasons.

Based on the way I and others rate teams who contend for each year's premiership, I would place Richmond 2018 after the following other teams who failed to win the Premiership:
Geelong 2008
Collingwood 2011
Essendon 2001
Brisbane 2004
St. Kilda 2009
St. Kilda 2010
Hawthorn 2012
Sydney 2014

However, you guys have spent the entire thread downplaying (in fact scoffing at) our assessment as to the quality of many of the above teams, based on their finals performances 'allegedly' not aligning with their home and away performances, but you now want to use our way of assessing teams when considering the strength of the Richmond 2018 team?

Do you see how that makes you appear somewhat disingenuous?

I haven’t been the once focussed on H&A v finals above all else, that’s Meteoric. And all those teams you mention are excellent teams. And I don’t mind the logic of positioning GF losers above prelim losers as a deciding factor.

The unique difference here is that Richmond losing team of 2018 was proven to be a 3x Premiership winning team, with 2 of those wins post 2018, proving the PF loss was a complete anomaly.

A few of the teams you listed were past their best by the time the GF came around... but if analysing an individual season only and not using anything else to measure the merits of the team then GF losers taking priority is a reasonable starting point.


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BF Tiger

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Hmmmm.

I know Meteoric Ruse's bosom buddy Roby strongly consider's a team's performance one/two/three years before and after to determine how good they were in a specfic year, but that probably tells you all you need to know about the validity of that approach given he is arguably THE most illogical poster on this site.

Football changes so quickly week to week, month to month. Let alone year to year.

I look at finals performance and home and away dominance to determine the level of a team's performance in a given year.

As an example, you'll notice I excluded Geelong 2010 from my above list, despite them being far more dominant than Richmond in the surrounding years, and despite the fact they were beaten in the Preliminary Final by the eventual Premier.

Please tell me, which of the eight teams I listed above, who had either better or slightly lesser home and away performances, and far superior finals performances in that they actually made the Grand Final and generally had close losses should be rated below the Richmond 2018 team who were belted in the Preliminary Final by a team who were beaten in that year's Grand Final?!?
So you’re not looking at ALL the data, just that which supports your argument?

To answer your question... Geelong 2008 were clearly the unluckiest. Next St Kilda 2009 and then Collingwood 2011. I think Richmond could slot in next. Sure we didn’t make the GF but we were two games and 15% clear of second and were upset in the PF. It happens, and unfortunately it’s cut throat.

If you want to claim Geelong 2010, go ahead, but then you can’t claim St Kilda 2010.

If you want to claim some teams had slightly lesser H&A seasons then it’s only fair to consider those with better H&A records as slightly better too.
 

Fadge

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So you’re not looking at ALL the data, just that which supports your argument?

To answer your question... Geelong 2008 were clearly the unluckiest. Next St Kilda 2009 and then Collingwood 2011. I think Richmond could slot in next. Sure we didn’t make the GF but we were two games and 15% clear of second and were upset in the PF. It happens, and unfortunately it’s cut throat.

If you want to claim Geelong 2010, go ahead, but then you can’t claim St Kilda 2010.

If you want to claim some teams had slightly lesser H&A seasons then it’s only fair to consider those with better H&A records as slightly better too.
Huh?

I said I had excluded Geelong 2010 for the same reason as I downgraded Richmond's 2018.

My whole rationale for elevating the teams I mentioned with slightly inferior home and away records to Richmond's 2018 was due to their superior finals records.

For the umpteenth time, I consider BOTH finals performances AND home and away performances in my assessment.

You want me to completely disregard Richmond's 2018 finals performances and yet the likes of Meteoric Ruse completely disregards home and away results (and the occasion Qualifying Final).
 

BF Tiger

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Huh?

I said I had excluded Geelong 2010 for the same reason as I downgraded Richmond's 2018.

My whole rationale for elevating the teams I mentioned with slightly inferior home and away records to Richmond's 2018 was due to their superior finals records.

For the umpteenth time, I consider BOTH finals performances AND home and away performances in my assessment.

You want me to completely disregard Richmond's 2018 finals performances and yet the likes of Meteoric Ruse completely disregards home and away results (and the occasion Qualifying Final).
You say you consider H&A and finals, but I’m confused as to what weighting you’re giving to each.

We went 18-4, finished two games and 15% clear of second placed West Coast and then went 1-1 in the finals. We won the same number of games in 2018 as the premier and had one less loss (from one less game).

We were three games and 16% clear of third placed Collingwood. Our season record was 19-5 while the Pies went 17-9. We were clearly the unlucky side in 2018.
 

Fadge

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You say you consider H&A and finals, but I’m confused as to what weighting you’re giving to each.

We went 18-4, finished two games and 15% clear of second placed West Coast and then went 1-1 in the finals. We won the same number of games in 2018 as the premier and had one less loss (from one less game).

We were three games and 16% clear of third placed Collingwood. Our season record was 19-5 while the Pies went 17-9. We were clearly the unlucky side in 2018.
Yep, and the Pies 2018 team weren't a great team. I certainly haven't nominated them as one of the best not to win a flag, so how could I possibly rate a team who got belted by them in the Prelim as one of the unluckiest of the century?

As to relative weighting of finals and home and away - if I give any more than 25% weighting to finals, than means Richmond 2018 are out of the discussion. But basically, if you're not good enough to even make the Grand Final - let alone considering the way you exited the finals series - how could you possibly be anywhere near the top 5, or 10 teams not to win the flag this century, when there have been 21 Grand Final losers so far?
 
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