Greatest Dynasty of the 21st century - Lions vs Cats vs Hawks vs Tigers

[Noidnadroj]

Your win loss ratio isn’t all that great compared to the cats or lions. You don’t dominate seasons. you haven’t had the great opponents either. Not your fault but when you don’t have great opponents you have to perform extra well.

ps. Dusty is in no way a walk up legend. He has only had one truly great season.


players who will be legends ahead of him still to go:

carey, Ablett, Lockett, dunstall, Williams, Ablett Jnr.

judd, Voss are also a big show.

that’s another 30 years of legends already to go.

When I said ‘walk up legend’ I meant he will one day be a legend. If you think he won’t be you’re kidding yourself.

On top of his ridiculous finals exploits ….:

In the last decade of football Dusty has:
1. The most Brownlow votes.
2. The most coach’s votes.
3. Finished top-3 in Richmond’s B&F 8 times.

His apparent lack of consistency or greatness in H&A is not backed up by a single piece of educated analysis.

And Brisbane didn’t finish top in any of their Premiership years…. so remind me again how they dominated seasons?

As for finals, Richmond’s percentage in all finals across our 3 x flag years is superior to every dynasty team.

And the competition is a lot more even than it has ever been and gets more even every year, so it goes without saying dominating week in and week out year after year is a lot harder than previous era’s.



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[Leon]

I think that’s a little bit revisionist towards the Lions. I’ve got no qualms with anyone saying they’re full of talents and the best team - it’s a valid opinion and there are lots of arguments as to why it is true.

but saying their star power eclipses Geelong’s I think is very up for debate

Selwood, Ablett, Johnson, Bartel, Corey, Chapman, Ling. 7 midfielders or midfield-forwards with 24 All Australian jerseys between them roving at the foot of an AA ruckman.

arguably the best fullback ever. Arguably the best small defender ever. A legit KPD superstar in Taylor. Milburn and Mackie both AA defenders.

the forward line falls down a bit compared to the rest of the team but Hawkins if you get rid of the ‘captain courageous’ stuff is legitimately comparable to Brown (and to be fair both were still short of their peaks during the flag years). I think the Cats’ star power easily stacks up.

I didn’t actually say the Lions were the best team of the 4 dynasty teams, just that IMO that they had the most star players on every line (back line, midfield, forward line), but again this is like comparing a Ferrari against a Lamborghini. Its not to say Geelong’s, Hawthorn’s and Richmond’s are not similarly loaded with stars.

Of the four teams, I think Geelong’s and Brisbane are the most similar. I’d rate both midfields as each other’s equal. Geelong’s defence better than Brisbane’s, but Brisbane’s forward line better than Geelong’s.

I’d agree with you that Geelong’s backline of that era is the best I’ve ever seen. Almost impossible to score against and fast and skilful on the rebound. I rewatched some of Geelong 2007 in lockdown last year and their skill by foot was simply ridiculous.

 

[Noidnadroj]

What matters for premierships is the pointy end results. But we are trying to work out who was the best team. Why would you just look at 4 games a year rather then 24-25? Sure give them greater weight but don’t ignore 80 percent of the season. Plus all these teams have 3 flags each so you kind of have to go on the other games anyway. And look at the opponents they beat.

a norm smith is 3 games. And only in one of them was he actually truly deserving of it. The other two he was a bit lucky with no clear standout.

gary Ayres won 2 norm smiths In a row. He ain’t even remotely close to a legend. Luke hodge also 2 and he ain’t remotely close either. Martin had one truly dominant season. Ablett has had 6 of those seasons. Williams had 3-4 of them. Martin needs to go back to the middle and start dominating again game in game out. Or kicke a couple of 50 goals seasons if he wants to be an all time great as a foward and bit time mid.

Do some more research Seeds and come back to us. 76 of 120 coach’s votes in the 12 finals of our dynasty (this include the Pie prelim when injured).

And he was clearly BOG in 2019 and 2020. Was awarded BOG by every coach, every NS voter and every media reporter ….100% of them.

In 2017 Houli would have been deserving. Dusty did have 28 (22 contested) kicked 2 and had 2 goal assists, so was more than worthy.

Anyway … maybe review some of the quality AFL stats sites like Footywire of AFLtables then re-join the convo.


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[Seeds]

Do some more research Seeds and come back to us. 76 of 120 coach’s votes in the 12 finals of our dynasty (this include the Pie prelim when injured).

And he was clearly BOG in 2019 and 2020. Was awarded BOG by every coach, every NS voter and every media reporter ….100% of them.

In 2017 Houli would have been deserving. Dusty did have 28 (22 contested) kicked 2 and had 2 goal assists, so was more than worthy.

Anyway … maybe review some of the quality AFL stats sites like Footywire of AFLtables then re-join the convo.


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2020 was the memorable norm smith. The one that was truly deserved and élevâtes him as a player.

2019 was just a smashing from the onset. as for who was on top during party time it doesnot mean all that much. when Geelong won in 2007 it could of gone to any of Johnson, mooney, Scarlett. being the best player in a game that is over well before half time doesn’t mean anything special. Those games aren’t all that different to home and away games. Riewoldt could of easily won 2020 and no one would of batted an eyelid.

2017 he wasn’t the best.


ironically 2017 is the one season he truly dominated. Since then he has been a bit disappointing. He didn’t go on with it. He has become a bit like James Bartel. Dominated a season and looked set for a grand career but then became a special relief player. Sure he would still get his 23 touches a game and 1.2 goals a game. But that is not the game of a legend. martin became someone who would play special games on the big occasion but not dominate seasons game in and game out. at Geelong we love to talk about bartels big games like the 2011 norm smith but we are all a tad disappointed he didn’t take his 2007-08 midfield dominance and continue that for another 6-8 years. Martin has gone a bit the same way albeit from a higher level. Hall of famer no doubt. But its going to make any legend claim very touch and go. There are far too many in front of him to be inducted for many decades and by then we will have a whole lot more players to choose from.

from the 80-s to 90s there are 5 hall of farmers that need to go to legend status.

lockett, Carey, Ablett, Williams and dunstall.

from the past twenty years there are only 2 clear stand outs. Ablett and Franklin. Judd and Martin will be touch and go. Ps. I take Martin ahead of Judd but I know others that won’t as Judd seems to have some magical aura with some that doesn’t match up with reality. Plus Carlton has influence.

 

[Noidnadroj]

2020 was the memorable norm smith. The one that was truly deserved and élevâtes him as a player.

2019 was just a smashing from the onset. as for who was on top during party time it doesnot mean all that much. when Geelong won in 2007 it could of gone to any of Johnson, mooney, Scarlett. being the best player in a game that is over well before half time doesn’t mean anything special. Those games aren’t all that different to home and away games. Riewoldt could of easily won 2020 and no one would of batted an eyelid.

2017 he wasn’t the best.


ironically 2017 is the one season he truly dominated. Since then he has been a bit disappointing. He didn’t go on with it. He has become a bit like James Bartel. Dominated a season and looked set for a grand career but then became a special relief player. Sure he would still get his 23 touches a game and 1.2 goals a game. But that is not the game of a legend. martin became someone who would play special games on the big occasion but not dominate seasons game in and game out. at Geelong we love to talk about bartels big games like the 2011 norm smith but we are all a tad disappointed he didn’t take his 2007-08 midfield dominance and continue that for another 6-8 years. Martin has gone a bit the same way albeit from a higher level. Hall of famer no doubt. But its going to make any legend claim very touch and go. There are far too many in front of him to be inducted for many decades and by then we will have a whole lot more players to choose from.

from the 80-s to 90s there are 5 hall of farmers that need to go to legend status.

lockett, Carey, Ablett, Williams and dunstall.

from the past twenty years there are only 2 clear stand outs. Ablett and Franklin. Judd and Martin will be touch and go. Ps. I take Martin ahead of Judd but I know others that won’t as Judd seems to have some magical aura with some that doesn’t match up with reality. Plus Carlton has influence.

Ok… so he was clearly BOG in 2019 but it doesn’t really count as it was an easy win … yep, makes sense. Renders another 20 or so Norm Smiths irrelevant which is a shame.

Your summation of him as a ‘relief player’ has chosen to ignore every single piece of respected data in analysing player performance which doesn’t really make sense of a footy forum, but that’s your prerogative.




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[SSSSSS]

One of my biggest footy 'what if's' in my mind is how we would have fared in 2016 if Roughy didn't have a recurrence of melanoma. Replace a prime Roughead for a loveable spud like Fitzpatrick and I think we would have given it more than just a crack. Bigger things in life than footy at the end of the day but just makes me wonder.

Think the biggest loss was Lake's departure which I felt was premature. Tapped on the shoulder too early. Thought he had at least another year in him. Our defense was far from the iron-tight unit it was in 2013-2015.

 

[terrybull]

For all the criticism for Richmond being a dynasty or not.. just remember that Adelaide, Footscray/Western Bulldogs, Fremantle, Gold Coast, GWS, Fremantle, North Melbourne, Port Adelaide, South Nelbourne/Sydney, St.Kilda, West Coast never hade one to discuss.

Three Premierships in 4 season - Dynasti for mine.

And a more powerfull one that was the the dynasti of 4 Premierships of 8 years between 1967-1974

 

[fargothegreat]

I'd probably have them ranked
1. Hawthorn
2. Brisbane
3. Richmond
4. Geelong

Hawthorn and Brisbane are the most impressive purely because they managed to win three in a row (which we're clearly not going to be able to do). I've got Hawthorn ahead though, because Brisbane had the merger concessions and Hawks won 2008 too. My only question mark on Hawthorn is whether the GC/GWS compromised drafts helped keep them up for longer.

I've got us ahead of Geelong because they never went back to back, but it's pretty close.

We also got the least advantages in building and maintaining our position at the top. Brisbane had the merger concessions to help build their list, Geelong got very lucky with father son picks to help their build, the compromised drafts gave Hawthorn a nice gap on other sides to help keep them at the top. We definitely have had the least talented list of the four, but we've made up for it by being a really close team with a really strong game plan that is only now falling apart (mainly due to the stand rule destroying our zone defense).

 

[Delecate Des]

I'd probably have them ranked
1. Hawthorn
2. Brisbane
3. Richmond
4. Geelong

Hawthorn and Brisbane are the most impressive purely because they managed to win three in a row (which we're clearly not going to be able to do). I've got Hawthorn ahead though, because Brisbane had the merger concessions and Hawks won 2008 too. My only question mark on Hawthorn is whether the GC/GWS compromised drafts helped keep them up for longer.

I've got us ahead of Geelong because they never went back to back, but it's pretty close.

We also got the least advantages in building and maintaining our position at the top. Brisbane had the merger concessions to help build their list, Geelong got very lucky with father son picks to help their build, the compromised drafts gave Hawthorn a nice gap on other sides to help keep them at the top. We definitely have had the least talented list of the four, but we've made up for it by being a really close team with a really strong game plan that is only now falling apart (mainly due to the stand rule destroying our zone defense).

Agree in all points, except for Hawthorn being assisted by the compromised drafts. Hawthorn finishing higher and had less access to high quality young players. The other part that gets lost in discussions like this is that Hawthorn lost Franklin for peanuts, (pick 19 from memory) yet continued to improve. Brisbane losing Voss or Richmond losing Dusty in the middle of their respective flag tilts would have a significant impact.

Also agree Richmond had the least talented list, but made the most of what they had! This list combined with a total team approach (and Dusty) were the corner stone of their success. If a compromised draft played a part it could be argued that it was during the last few years where it comes home to roost. As you said, Richmond had the least talented list and easily beat GWS who are a walking example of the impact of a compromised draft!

Unfortunately unless Richmond pulls a miracle out of their clackers, I can not see them defending their title this year.

Burt I would have the Tigers easily ahead of Geelong in this discussion.

 

[kranky al]

When I said ‘walk up legend’ I meant he will one day be a legend. If you think he won’t be you’re kidding yourself.

On top of his ridiculous finals exploits ….:

In the last decade of football Dusty has:
1. The most Brownlow votes.
2. The most coach’s votes.
3. Finished top-3 in Richmond’s B&F 8 times.

His apparent lack of consistency or greatness in H&A is not backed up by a single piece of educated analysis.

And Brisbane didn’t finish top in any of their Premiership years…. so remind me again how they dominated seasons?

As for finals, Richmond’s percentage in all finals across our 3 x flag years is superior to every dynasty team.

And the competition is a lot more even than it has ever been and gets more even every year, so it goes without saying dominating week in and week out year after year is a lot harder than previous era’s.



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People not rating dusty have the footy iq of an 16th century headhunting cannibal or are trolling - dont waste your time

 

[Pessimistic]

Dusted is especially outstanding cos all the recent Brownlow winners and media darlings can’t kick the skin off a rice pudding

 

[Goggin Our Best]

For all the criticism for Richmond being a dynasty or not.. just remember that Adelaide, Footscray/Western Bulldogs, Fremantle, Gold Coast, GWS, Fremantle, North Melbourne, Port Adelaide, South Nelbourne/Sydney, St.Kilda, West Coast never hade one to discuss.


And a more powerfull one that was the the dynasti of 4 Premierships of 8 years between 1967-1974

Bullshiit

Current Rich team or of last 3-4 years aernt anywhere near as good as their 67-74 era

 

[PhatBoy]

Agree in all points, except for Hawthorn being assisted by the compromised drafts. Hawthorn finishing higher and had less access to high quality young players. The other part that gets lost in discussions like this is that Hawthorn lost Franklin for peanuts, (pick 19 from memory) yet continued to improve. Brisbane losing Voss or Richmond losing Dusty in the middle of their respective flag tilts would have a significant impact.

Also agree Richmond had the least talented list, but made the most of what they had! This list combined with a total team approach (and Dusty) were the corner stone of their success. If a compromised draft played a part it could be argued that it was during the last few years where it comes home to roost. As you said, Richmond had the least talented list and easily beat GWS who are a walking example of the impact of a compromised draft!

Unfortunately unless Richmond pulls a miracle out of their clackers, I can not see them defending their title this year.

Burt I would have the Tigers easily ahead of Geelong in this discussion.

Yeah it’s a totally unique situation, any of those teams losing their best player. It only happened to hawthorn

 

[Barry_Badrinath]

Your win loss ratio isn’t all that great compared to the cats or lions. You don’t dominate seasons. you haven’t had the great opponents either. Not your fault but when you don’t have great opponents you have to perform extra well.

ps. Dusty is in no way a walk up legend. He has only had one truly great season.


players who will be legends ahead of him still to go:

carey, Ablett, Lockett, dunstall, Williams, Ablett Jnr.

judd, Voss are also a big show.

that’s another 30 years of legends already to go.

Martin is absolutely a lock to be named a legend of the game.

And Richmond had a near identical W/L to Brisbane (in fact it’s slightly better).

 

[Delecate Des]

Yeah it’s a totally unique situation, any of those teams losing their best player. It only happened to hawthorn

Way to miss the point there Phatboy!!

So little Gary joining Gold Coast had no impact on Geelong then???

 

[PhatBoy]

Way to miss the point there Phatboy!!

So little Gary joining Gold Coast had no impact on Geelong then???

Where did I say that?

you said that compromised drafts etc didn’t help hawthorn. Well neither did they help Geelong who in addition to compromised drafts, like hawthorn, lost their best player.

and I don’t really know why ‘this is how they put their team together so it makes them better.’

who cares?
If they were all thrown into a round robin tournament together in fantasy world, would Geelong’s goals count for less because one of the blokes in the possession chain leading to it had a dad at the club 30 years ago?

 

[kranky al]

Bullshiit

Current Rich team or of last 3-4 years aernt anywhere near as good as their 67-74 era

Lol sif a suburban league of weekend warriors would kick a single goal against richmond yesterday let alone in 17/19/20

 

[PhatBoy]

Lol sif a suburban league of weekend warriors would kick a single goal against richmond yesterday let alone in 17/19/20

You could say that about literally any sports person or team from any era.

do you think 1965 jack Nicklaus transported to right now could beat koepka or Mcilroy or spieth?

do you think Ali plonked into the ring opposite wilder or AJ or Fury could beat them?

could Bradman average 99 against Steyn Merkel philander and Rabada or in India against Harbhajan and Kumble? Of course he couldn’t.

but if all those sportsmen were born with the same natural talent that they were indeed born with, and brought up training and playing and conditioning to modern standards then of course the would still be great. Same goes for teams of previous eras.

of course they’d get ******* belted against a current team. Likewise if you took a current team, took them back to the 60s, gave them all full time jobs and let them train jist a few times a week and have basically a coach and a manager telling them what to do, they’d be at the same starting point as all the teams back then

 

[kranky al]

You could say that about literally any sports person or team from any era.

do you think 1965 jack Nicklaus transported to right now could beat koepka or Mcilroy or spieth?

do you think Ali plonked into the ring opposite wilder or AJ or Fury could beat them?

could Bradman average 99 against Steyn Merkel philander and Rabada or in India against Harbhajan and Kumble? Of course he couldn’t.

but if all those sportsmen were born with the same natural talent that they were indeed born with, and brought up training and playing and conditioning to modern standards then of course the would still be great. Same goes for teams of previous eras.

of course they’d get ******* belted against a current team. Likewise if you took a current team, took them back to the 60s, gave them all full time jobs and let them train jist a few times a week and have basically a coach and a manager telling them what to do, they’d be at the same starting point as all the teams back then

No chance a suburban league team even given the same training would come close

a ruckman from back then wouldnt be big enough to be a key position player today and a kpf from that era is now a midfielder.

The whole team would be batted aside like boys v men.

 

[PhatBoy]

No chance a suburban league team even given the same training would come close

a ruckman from back then wouldnt be big enough to be a key position player today and a kpf from that era is now a midfielder.

The whole team would be batted aside like boys v men.

Sigh.. again

Do you you think the player pool that today’s team’s have access to and then cross code athletes and science lab freaks and basketball converts etc would be accessible to the current teams if they were transported back into the circumstance of 50 years ago?

It’s not hard to understand. Jack Brabham wouldn’t be able to build his own F1 car to 2021 specifications and wouldn’t have had a car anything like current ones.

does that mean if he was brought up in the 2000s he wouldn’t have had access to all the development and technology that Lewis Hamilton does?


guess what? Rod Laver wouldn’t be able to beat Rafael Nadal because he used a wooden racket, serve-volleyed all the time and was about half as fit.

Do you think if Nadal was born in 1950 he’d be the identical player to what he is now?

 

[kranky al]

Sigh.. again

Do you you think the player pool that today’s team’s have access to and then cross code athletes and science lab freaks and basketball converts etc would be accessible to the current teams if they were transported back into the circumstance of 50 years ago?

It’s not hard to understand. Jack Brabham wouldn’t be able to build his own F1 car to 2021 specifications and wouldn’t have had a car anything like current ones.

does that mean if he was brought up in the 2000s he wouldn’t have had access to all the development and technology that Lewis Hamilton does?


guess what? Rod Laver wouldn’t be able to beat Rafael Nadal because he used a wooden racket, serve-volleyed all the time and was about half as fit.

Do you think if Nadal was born in 1950 he’d be the identical player to what he is now?

Neither of them would be any shorter or taller. Jack brabham doesnt have to be 190cm to drive a race car.

You are trying to say a team from 50 years ago was better than a team today

im saying no - not by any metric

and if you transported those richmond kids forward in time and gave them all the same sports science etc they would still get flogged.

the players these days are monsters with phenomenal skills.

back then the big guys were lumbering lead up forwards with the turning circle of an aircraft carrier - now you have blokes twice their size who can out turn them and have ball skills closer to a midfielder from that era

 

[Jeremiah001]

Fury aint no Ali

 

[PhatBoy]

Neither of them would be any shorter or taller

You are trying to say a team from 50 years ago was better than a team today

im saying no - not by any metric

and if you transported those richmond kids forward in time and gave them all the same sports science etc they would still get flogged.

the players these says are monsters with phenomenal skills.

back then the big guys were lumbering lead up forwards with the turning circle of an aircraft carrier - now you have blokes twice their size who can out turn them and have ball skills closer to a midfielder from that era

Holy mother of God.

answer the question.

would Dustin Martin have the same
Skill set, the same conditioning, the same fitness, the same physio, the same drafting development, the same junior academy programming, if he was born in 1950.

It’s not hard to answer. Answer it.

The concept of ‘relativity’ is clearly something you simply don’t understand.

I’ll make it as simple as possible.

would Mason Cox, though taller than anyone from the 1950s Collingwood team, be recruited in the 1950s?
No. Because teams in the 1950s didn’t look to America for their players. They didn’t need to. Because two metre players weren’t looked for by all teams.

if that 1950s Collingwood team was transported through time to now, they WOULD start looking for players from America. Why? Because that’s what clubs do now.

 

[PhatBoy]

Fury aint no Ali

Of course he isn’t. But Ali from 1965 would probably get his arse handed to him if he fought 2020 Fury.

fury has better facilities, bigger training teams, better conditioning, video analysis, better programs etc etc.

Alternatively if he was born at the same time as Ali and had the same development as Ali, Ali would hand him his Arse

 

[Goggin Our Best]

No chance a suburban league team even given the same training would come close

a ruckman from back then wouldnt be big enough to be a key position player today and a kpf from that era is now a midfielder.

The whole team would be batted aside like boys v men.

That should get an award for the dumbest thing ever said on big footy

Bartlett Hart Saint Francis Bourke and Billy Barrot - thats 4 genuine superstars - current Rich team have got 0ne in Martin