Greatest Dynasty of the 21st century - Lions vs Cats vs Hawks vs Tigers

Which dynasty is the greatest?


  • Total voters
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Roby

Norm Smith Medallist
Jul 27, 2008
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In my view, the real core of the issue is how impressive Geelong was in 2007 and 2011. They simply obliterated their competition in both years. They never backed up a premiership, but the three premierships they won were just that much more impressive. In fact, their three premiership years were that much more impressive, when considered as individual seasons.

If Geelong had say, won their 2007 finals by a combined total of 74 points (average winning 24.7 points) like Hawthorn did in 2013, this would be a closer debate in my mind.

If Geelong had stumbled in the 2011 finals, losing in week 1 like Hawthorn did in 2013 then this would be a closer debate in my mind.

But they didn’t.

They won 2 finals by over 100 points in 2007! Something no one else has ever achieved, I’m pretty sure.

In 2011 they had 3 comfortable victories in a row, against opponents with a combined home and away record of 55-11. (Even if you removed all the wins against the weak bottom 4, this would still be a better combined record than the finals teams who lost to the premier, in almost any other year). West Coast were unbeatable at home and still decent elsewhere, Hawthorn were very good, and Collingwood were next level. Geelong beat them all. Easily!

Those two achievements are greater than anything Hawthorn, Brisbane or Richmond did. And when you consider Geelong also beat a team who won 19 games in a row in 2009, it's collectively just incredibly impressive.

I guess what I'm saying is this: Not all flags are equal. Geelong's were better, overall.

People think Brisbane and Hawthorn's flags were automatically better, simply because they won the year before. Without regard for opposition, or how impressive they were in the finals. And that seems to be literally the only argument you could make for Hawthorn or Brisbane. (Other than "Brisbane travelled"). But I just can't accept that backing up a flag is necessarily more impressive than falling off the cliff- in the eyes of many- and then climbing the summit again- and going to higher heights than ever before.

So the one possible argument for Hawthorn and Brisbane is equalled by something Geelong did- something different but equally impressive. And then all other factors, all other measures point towards Geelong. That's why they're easily the greatest.
St Kilda and Collingwood showed they weren't as good as everyone thought at the time and more of a flash in the pan.
 

JackOutback

Brownlow Medallist
Sep 15, 2011
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The Hawks were up by an average of three goals when up in the first quarter, the same as Geelong. That's impressive to be up by three goals when leading in the first quarter.

The difference is that the Hawks won 15 first quarters to Geelong's 11.
I'm struggling to think of a more meaningless stat.
 

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PJays

Senior List
Nov 2, 2020
237
312
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St Kilda
A 10 second summary of the arguments for each team:

Hawthorn:


They backed up twice.


Brisbane:

They backed up twice.

They travelled.


Geelong:

They were written off, they lost the best player in the comp, then they rose again and played one of the best seasons ever.

They played better opponents.

They were more dominant over their opposition- in home & away and finals. They won by more. They did it more easily.

They swept all 3 premierships.

They won more games overall.
 

Roby

Norm Smith Medallist
Jul 27, 2008
7,492
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Melbourne
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Hawthorn
A 10 second summary of the arguments for each team:

Hawthorn:


They backed up twice.


Brisbane:

They backed up twice.

They travelled.


Geelong:

They were written off, they lost the best player in the comp, then they rose again and played one of the best seasons ever.

They played better opponents.

They were more dominant over their opposition- in home & away and finals. They won by more. They did it more easily.

They swept all 3 premierships.

They won more games overall.

Hawks didn't lose the best player in the comp?

Played better opponents? Subjective. I say Geelong played flashed in the pan teams.

Geelong won more easily? Nope. Apart from thee 2007 Grand Final they were down in the third quarter of the other two. Hawthorn apart from the 08 Grand Final were they were down by a point in the first quarter, led at every change in all of their four premierships.

Yep Geelong won more games overall that is the only thing it appears Geelong have done better than Hawthorn but ultimately a meaningless stat come Grand Final, ergo, 2008.
 
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PhatBoy

Brownlow Medallist
May 5, 2016
22,766
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Geelong
Hawks didn't lose the best player in the comp?

Played better opponents? Subjective. I say Geelong and played flashed in the pan teams.

Geelong won more easily? Nope. Apart from thee 2007 Grand Final they were down in the third quarter of the other two. Hawthorn apart from the 08 Grand Final were they were down by a point in the first quarter, led at every change in all of their four premierships.

Yep Geelong won more games overall that is the only thing it appears Geelong have done better than Hawthorn but ultimately a meaningless stat come Grand Final, ergo, 2008.

Sorry but flash in the pan doesn’t apply when the flash hasn’t ended yet

Great point though st kilda completely disappeared after 2009
 

Roby

Norm Smith Medallist
Jul 27, 2008
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Is 15-20 points with an hour to play game over or not.
Depends who is the team up and the margin. It was an average, in some games it was higher.

Three goals is a lot, i'm not sure the exact stats but I know been up by four goals generally means you around 95% games. I think three goals would be around 80-85%. In 2013, Hawthorn only lost 1 of 15 games when up in the first quarter (round 1 against Geelong, understandable). Same thing happened in finals.
 

Pessimistic

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Sep 13, 2000
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What makes you think that once Geelong of 2011 were home most weeks, they didn't cruise as well but were simply that much better than their opposition that they still put more points on them?

They started slow occasionally. they also had an average half-time differential of +22.5 - for context Hawthorn had an average differential after 1 quarter in 2013 of +9.3.
Hawthorn had an average differential at half-time in 2013 of +14, by the way.

So we put the cue in the rack one quarter later, with a bigger lead.
Or the opposition were that much poorer?
 

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Pessimistic

Make me an Admin!
Sep 13, 2000
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A 10 second summary of the arguments for each team:

Hawthorn:


They backed up twice.


Brisbane:

They backed up twice.

They travelled.


Geelong:

They were written off, they lost the best player in the comp, then they rose again and played one of the best seasons ever.

They played better opponents.

They were more dominant over their opposition- in home & away and finals. They won by more. They did it more easily.

They swept all 3 premierships.

They won more games overall.
Fair bit of luck (or tenacity) in 2009 GF. Swept? hardly. won one quarter by more than the opponent won 2 quarters
 

Gibbke

Premiership Player
Mar 21, 2008
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Best team on paper: Brisbane
Best team WL: Geelong
Best chance of outrating the other three: Richmond
Best team so f### you: Hawthorn
 

Fadge

Norm Smith Medallist
Mar 4, 2007
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And yet the vote is Narrowly 4th. not sure I agree with it, but theres a desperation that everyone should see how far superior geelong were (as in the minds of certain posters)
Suggest it says more about the general lack of critical thinking ability across the BigFooty populace than anything else.
 

Roby

Norm Smith Medallist
Jul 27, 2008
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Fair bit of luck (or tenacity) in 2009 GF. Swept? hardly. won one quarter by more than the opponent won 2 quarters
Pjays forms an idea then go and seeks evidence for it as opposed look at evidence then form a theory. It's obvious to me he is trying to give St Kilda relevance as they were only good for two years. By making the argument that Geelong and Collingwood are the best teams ever it suggest that the Saints would've won at the very least back-to-back in any other two year period. That is why all his posts are selective stats in favour of his point of view as opposed to a balance argument.
 

PJays

Senior List
Nov 2, 2020
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312
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Hawks didn't lose the best player in the comp?

Geelong was helped by having a deep midfield. Hawthorn was helped by Gunston developing into his prime just as Buddy left. Neither team felt the effects of their superstar departure.

The difference is the stage of the era each team was in.

Some of Hawthorn's long standing stars were in their primes- Rioli, Roughhead, Lewis, Birchall, weren't that old in 2014. All 24-27. They had younger players like Breust, Gunston, Hill, Shiels, Smith, Stratton.

But in 2011 Geelong was old. Ling, Scarlett, Corey, Chapman, Ottens, Mooney, Wojinski, Enright, Corey, Hunt, Milburn, most of their core from 2007 to 2010 was 30ish by 2011. Harley and Rooke had already retired. Apart from Selwood, Hawkins and Taylor there was barely anyone under 25 in the team.

They'd lost the prelim comfortably and the feeling was their time had come and gone.

That back drop- getting old- in combination with losing Ablett is what makes 2011 impressive.

Half their team had been contending since 2004 when they lost the prelim by 9 points. They weren't meant to win another one. That's not how the AFL is meant to work. They were meant to drop away. Like Brisbane did. Like Hawthorn eventually did.

Instead, they decimated everybody and won another flag.

19-3 and won every final by over 5 goals.

They broke the system.
 
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Roby

Norm Smith Medallist
Jul 27, 2008
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4,488
Melbourne
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Hawthorn
Geelong was helped by having a deep midfield. Hawthorn was helped by Gunston developing into his prime just as Buddy left. Neither team felt the effects of their superstar departure.

The difference is the stage of the era each team was in.

Some of Hawthorn's long standing stars were in their primes- Rioli, Roughhead, Lewis, Birchall, weren't that old in 2014. All 24-27. They had younger players like Breust, Gunston, Hill, Shiels, Smith, Stratton.

But in 2011 Geelong was old. Ling, Scarlett, Corey, Chapman, Ottens, Wojinski, Enright, Corey, Hunt, most of their core from 2007 to 2010 was 30ish by 2011. Apart from Selwood, Hawkins and Taylor there was barely anyone under 25 in the team.

They'd lost the prelim comfortably and the feeling was their time had come and gone.

That back drop- getting old- in combination with losing Ablett is what makes 2011 impressive.

They weren't meant to win another one. That's not how the AFL is meant to work. They were meant to drop away. Like Brisbane did. Like Hawthorn eventually did.

Instead, they decimated everybody and won another flag.

19-3 and won every final by over 5 goals.

They broke the system.
What system was broken?
 

Roby

Norm Smith Medallist
Jul 27, 2008
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Melbourne
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Hawthorn
Tend to think the end of the fourth is the most important. But I'm crazy like that.
The end of the fourth quarter is just one moment in a game and certainly is no more valuable than a while 25-30 mins of a quarter. There is no end of a game without a first quarter, not even a start.
 

PhatBoy

Brownlow Medallist
May 5, 2016
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I watch way more NBA than AFL. You obviously don't. Warriors recently were talked about the greatest ever team with their 4-5 HOF. Spurs were never talked about in this way.

We’re they talked about like that because they went back to back or because they were just such a good team?
 

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