Greatest Dynasty of the 21st century - Lions vs Cats vs Hawks vs Tigers

Which dynasty is the greatest?


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Meteoric Rise

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Nothing I've said is inconsistent or difficult to understand.

Right through the 70 odd pages of this thread, I have followed the OP and I've sought to answer the question- who was the greatest team- Brisbane 2001-2003, Geelong 2007-2011, Hawthorn 2013-2015 or Richmond 2017-2020.

A team means a fairly consistent group of players making up most of the 22, with a similar core. That's the most reasonable definition I can think of within this context, and it's the same definition I've used throughout all my posts.

Hawthorn from 2013 to 2015 had a fairly consistent team. From 2008 to 2015 they did not.

If you want to have a different argument, if you want to say "Well Hawthorn is a greater club, they rotated their team through and won 4 flags", great, go ahead. Have that discussion. But please understand that has nothing to do with the question I've been answering on the terms set out by the OP.
Hasn’t he more or less asked which is the greatest dynasty? And set out no terms beyond that? Or am I missing something?
 

Barry_Badrinath

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Hasn’t he more or less asked which is the greatest dynasty? And set out no terms beyond that? Or am I missing something?
True. No mention of what qualifies in the original post. The poll has years, but doesn’t include them all. Brisbane is 01-03 rather than 01-04 and Hawthorn is 13-15 rather than 12-15 or 08-15. OP just put enough years to cover their premierships. That’s it.
 

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PJays

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This one absolutely goes to Geelong. 84% over the 5 years is insane. They won 18 home and away games 4 times. That’s more than Hawthorn, Richmond and Brisbane combined.
Yep. Geelong's home and away record is head and shoulders above.

Over 5 years- H&A and finals 105-20. Closest is Hawthorn 99-27 from 2011-2015 (or 97-28 if you go 2012-2016). Brisbane 88-36-1 from 2000-2004.

Richmond 71-23-1 from 2017 to 2020. Richmond has lost 3 more games in 4 seasons, than Geelong did in 5 seasons. And one of Richmond’s seasons was a shortened year.

Geelong’s record is boosted by the lack of strong interstate sides at the time, but equally Hawthorn is boosted by the presence of early GC, early GWS, rabble Melbourne and rabble St Kilda through their successful stretch.

This ones very selective and very debatable. Of course if you leave out the years where Geelong lost finals then their finals record will look the best. In the years being discussed Geelong went 12-3, Brisbane 11-2, Hawthorn 11-2, Richmond 10-2. They’re all pretty well the same. Geelong’s is slightly weaker when you consider it’s only 80% compared to 85% and 83% for the others. Geelong had a slightly better percentage due to a few huge wins, but also more close calls and losses than Richmond for example.
It sounds like you’re comparing 5 seasons of Geelong with 4 seasons of the others?

We need to be consistent. Compare apples with apples. Either rate flag years only, or rate the 5 year period when each team was most successful. Eg Brisbane 2000 to 2004 (or include 1999 if you want). Hawthorn 2011 to 2015 (or 2012 to 2016). Richmond 2017 to 2020, since they’ve only had 4 successful years so far.

Geelong comes out ahead on W/L, and easily ahead on percentage. Whether you choose flag years only, or extend it out.

Agreed. Geelong did face the best Grand Final opponents in 2009 and 2011. They also faced the weakest in 2007.
Both great performances but Hawthorn 2014 and Richmond 2019 are arguably on par or better. I’m not sure which of those 4 is best.
I’d rate the grand final performances like this, factoring in strength of opposition and performance in the game:

Geelong vs Collingwood 2011
Geelong vs Port 2007
Hawthorn vs Sydney 2014
Brisbane vs Collingwood 2003
Richmond vs GWS 2019
Geelong vs St.Kilda 2009
Brisbane vs Essendon 2001
Richmond vs Geelong 2020
Richmond vs Adelaide 2017
Hawthorn vs West Coast 2015
Hawthorn vs Freo 2013
Brisbane vs Collingwood 2002

Geelong stands out, head and shoulders above. I’m not sure who I’d put in 2nd.


Richmond 2017 is comparable. 07, 11 and 17 are the three contenders for best finals series out of these teams. Richmond 2019 settles for 4th place.
Geelong’s 2011 is a clear number 1. Easily the best opponents of any finals series under discussion. And Geelong won every game comfortably. You can't do much better than that.

I’d rate Richmond 2017 slightly above Geelong 2007. Winning 2 finals by over 100 is just ridiculous, even in a weaker year. But Geelong’s prelim win was very tight, so they lose a spot for that.

So Geelong has 2 of the top 3 finals series under discussion.
 

Barry_Badrinath

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On the finals record but, if I extend it out to 5 years like you suggested then it becomes:

Richmond 10-2 (83%)
Lions 12-3 (80%)
Geelong 12-3 (80%)
Hawthorn 12-4 (75%)

Again, bugger all in it. They were all pretty evenly dominant over the successful eras in finals. If we extend it out any further than 5 years then Geelong’s record starts to look very dicey
 

PJays

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Hasn’t he more or less asked which is the greatest dynasty? And set out no terms beyond that? Or am I missing something?
He listed flag years, and said Hawthorn 2013-2015. Which I interpret as saying that dynasties is about teams, not clubs.

You can have whatever definition of dynasty you want though.

I find the team conversation a bit easier to analyze consistently though. If you take the longer term view of dynasty, you have to answer the following questions:

  • What is sufficient connection between dynasties in terms of players? Or is it just playing for the same club?

  • What stops a dynasty? Does failing to achieve any success for 2 straight years stop a dynasty in it's tracks? Or does it take 3 or 4 years?

As long as you clearly define your terms and answer the methodological questions straight up, go for it. Have your discussion.

I've defined my terms clearly from the start and have never deviated from them. And I think my terms actually have less subjectivity in them.
 

PJays

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On the finals record but, if I extend it out to 5 years like you suggested then it becomes:

Richmond 10-2 (83%)
Lions 12-3 (80%)
Geelong 12-3 (80%)
Hawthorn 12-4 (75%)

Again, bugger all in it. They were all pretty evenly dominant over the successful eras in finals.
And percentage?

Win/Loss similar but Geelong's percentage was easily better, and overall opposition was better. So what does that tell you? If you're playing better teams and winning your games by more, then.......

If we extend it out any further than 5 years then Geelong’s record starts to look very dicey
But that becomes a discussion about clubs. I'm discussing who the greatest team was.
 

Barry_Badrinath

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And percentage?

Win/Loss similar but Geelong's percentage was easily better, and overall opposition was better. So what does that tell you? If you're playing better teams and winning your games by more, then.......



But that becomes a discussion about clubs. I'm discussing who the greatest team was.
Winning games by more? Or some games by more? Richmond have only had one scare in the prelim this year. All the other wins were by 20 plus.

Geelong had more losses and more narrow wins. Only Port came close
 

MRCB12

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This thread is incredible.

I love it.

Thanks for the enjoyment.

I’ll just list them in my order
Hawthorn
Brisbane
Richmond
Geelong

I’d take back to back any day. Three in row trumps all. Geelong ripper team and dominated home and away but never backed it up in finals. What’s the point. You can finish 8th and still win the flag. Finals is when it counts.

Richmond when next year. Biased yes. But that’s three in a row and 4/5 years. That’s the winner.

Couldn’t care less for percentage and home and away records. Premierships the the most important thing. Geelong weren’t the best team as they couldn’t win in finals two years running.

Saints were a great team 09-10 they won nothing. Deserved one, perhaps. Couldn’t get it done when it matter unfortunately.

Just another random point. If a team finishes 5-8th and wins a flag and manages to incredibly do that 3 times in a row. Surely that’s the greatest. Making finals is all you have to do. Bulldogs 2016. Make it then put the foot down. Richmond dominated 2018 and sh*t the bed in the pre lim. I’d rather scrape into finals domaine 4 weeks of footy not the 22 weeks prior
 

Fadge

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On the finals record but, if I extend it out to 5 years like you suggested then it becomes:

Richmond 10-2 (83%)
Lions 12-3 (80%)
Geelong 12-3 (80%)
Hawthorn 12-4 (75%)

Again, bugger all in it. They were all pretty evenly dominant over the successful eras in finals. If we extend it out any further than 5 years then Geelong’s record starts to look very dicey
Is that because Geelong played in finals whereas the other teams didn't?

Or is that because Geelong made Preliminary Finals with a record of 1 win, 2 losses, whilst the other teams lost their first final (or went 1 win, 1 loss)?

Please, provide us with some detailed analysis....
 

Barry_Badrinath

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Is that because Geelong played in finals whereas the other teams didn't?

Or is that because Geelong made Preliminary Finals with a record of 1 win, 2 losses, whilst the other teams lost their first final (or went 1 win, 1 loss)?

Please, provide us with some detailed analysis....
Hawthorn went 1-2
Brisbane went 1-1
 

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And percentage?

Win/Loss similar but Geelong's percentage was easily better, and overall opposition was better. So what does that tell you? If you're playing better teams and winning your games by more, then.......



But that becomes a discussion about clubs. I'm discussing who the greatest team was.
percentage could mean the opposition was poor. I men some quarters geelong barely broke even. But that 2007 GF does wonders for percentage ey? Even though there’s no percentage in finals
 

PJays

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Winning games by more? Or some games by more? Richmond have only had one scare in the prelim this year. All the other wins were by 20 plus.

Geelong had more losses and more narrow wins. Only Port came close
OK. Let’s summarise Geelong and Richmond in finals.

Geelong- In 5 years:
  • Lost 3 finals to very good teams, and had two close calls (one against a team that won 19 games in a row).
  • Smashed a few teams- 119 point Grand Final win, 106 point qualifying final win, 73 point prelim win.
  • Won games comfortably against very good teams. (Hawthorn 2011, WC 2011, Coll 2011).

Richmond- In 4 years:
  • Lost 2 finals to lesser teams, and had one close call.
  • Smashed teams, but nowhere near as convincingly as Geelong’s biggest wins.
  • Had comfortable wins, but not against the same quality of opposition.
Take your Richmond glasses off and ask yourself:

Is this even close? Why am I bothering to defend my team when the answer is so obvious?

Relax, just kidding. We all know you’re incapable of taking your Richmond glasses off!
 

Roby

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OK. Let’s summarise Geelong and Richmond in finals.

Geelong- In 5 years:
  • Lost 3 finals to very good teams, and had two close calls (one against a team that won 19 games in a row).
  • Smashed a few teams- 119 point Grand Final win, 106 point qualifying final win, 73 point prelim win.
  • Won games comfortably against very good teams. (Hawthorn 2011, WC 2011, Coll 2011).

Richmond- In 4 years:
  • Lost 2 finals to lesser teams, and had one close call.
  • Smashed teams, but nowhere near as convincingly as Geelong’s biggest wins.
  • Had comfortable wins, but not against the same quality of opposition.
Take your Richmond glasses off and ask yourself:

Is this even close? Why am I bothering to defend my team when the answer is so obvious?

Relax, just kidding. We all know you’re incapable of taking your Richmond glasses off!
The more Geelong supporters post, the more I realise how insecure you are wanting someone to validate those premierships that didn't go back to back.

They've basically discarded as an average era in the grand scheme of things.

As I've said before Geelong is lucky to have two, premierships let alone three. But just go with the obivious one.

The 2009 Bradbury.

  • Plays St Kilda at the MCG even though St Kilda performed poorly there and played better at Marvel (previously know as Etihad).
  • St Kilda proved they were the better team during the year
  • Got a wet Grand Final which did not suit St Kilda taller forwards or what dry Etihad
  • Umpires allowed Geelong to pull their opponents in marking contests
  • Hawkins scored a point which was illegally converted into a goal
  • Despite all this St Kilda won the first three quarters! (No team has done this and lost a grand final other than 2009)
  • With a couple of minutes to go the score was still level and of Dawson punches it correctly Saints win (maybe he should've pulled Gary Ablett but then the umpires would've favoured Geelong anyway as they during their dominant period, they were Bulldogs/West Coast of that era for free kicks)
So Geelong Bradbury the 2009 flag, you have not been able to counter this point, you're a fraud.

So Geelong even with 2011 go four years without another legitimate premiership. This not a dynasty. It's an accident of history.
 

Barry_Badrinath

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OK. Let’s summarise Geelong and Richmond in finals.

Geelong- In 5 years:
  • Lost 3 finals to very good teams, and had two close calls (one against a team that won 19 games in a row).
  • Smashed a few teams- 119 point Grand Final win, 106 point qualifying final win, 73 point prelim win.
  • Won games comfortably against very good teams. (Hawthorn 2011, WC 2011, Coll 2011).

Richmond- In 4 years:
  • Lost 2 finals to lesser teams, and had one close call.
  • Smashed teams, but nowhere near as convincingly as Geelong’s biggest wins.
  • Had comfortable wins, but not against the same quality of opposition.
Take your Richmond glasses off and ask yourself:

Is this even close? Why am I bothering to defend my team when the answer is so obvious?

Relax, just kidding. We all know you’re incapable of taking your Richmond glasses off!
Well at least you’re honest now lol

You’re not being very impartial though. You discredit the quality of the teams Richmond pumped, but not Geelong’s opponents.

Why didn’t you feel the need to point out that the 119 point win and the 106 point win were against garbage opposition? The 2009 Pies weren’t exactly a powerhouse either.

You say Geelong’s wins were more comprehensive. I’d say 114-25 is a pretty comprehensive smashing. Using your favourite metric of percentage it’s even more impressive than 119. And that’s against a team with far more talent than the 07 Power or 07 Roos.

And as for losing to lesser teams? The Pies were a lower team sure. But losing to the 2nd placed team on their home deck? Dunno if that counts.

Geelong lost to two lower ranked opponents FWIW. You might even call them lesser teams.
 
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PJays

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You say Geelong’s wins were more comprehensive. I’d say 114-25 is a pretty comprehensive smashing. Using your favourite metric of percentage it’s even more impressive than 119.
You're not seriously comparing 2007 with 2019 are you?

2019- Close game early. GWS held a 5 point lead until the 24 minute mark Q1. Richmond took control in Q2. Led by 56 early Q4 before piling on late goals to win by 89.

2007- Geelong dominated from the opening minutes. 12 scoring shots to 4 first quarter. 52 point half time lead. Had a 128 point lead but Port goaled late. Broke all time record with 119 point win.

And don't forget Geelong won the qualifying final by 106 3 weeks earlier.

Geelong had the most dominant wins. This isn't even debatable.


And that’s against a team with far more talent than the 07 Power or 07 Roos.
2019 GWS finished 6th and scraped through to the GF. Talented list but haven't ever consistently displayed that talent cohesively as a team, or shown the toughness necessary to win finals.

Port 2007 probably the superior team. At least comparable.

Geelong lost to two lower ranked opponents FWIW. You might even call them lesser teams.
Who?

2008 Hawthorn, 2010 Collingwood and 2010 St Kilda all superior to 2018 Collingwood, who smashed Richmond.

And 2020 Brisbane...... lol. That one doesn't need discussing after the way they lost the prelim. In fact they've finished top 4 with a double chance 2 years in a row and Richmond's the only team they've managed to beat! How bad does that make Richmond look!?

Take off those yellow and black glasses mate! At least try to.
 
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