Yeah but you can't be a long term "dynasty" of continual success if you've missed the finals 13 times in the past 30 years and failed to even win a final in 20 of those years, that was my point (unlike West Coast- If we take a long term view of dynasty)
Greatest Dynasty of the 21st century - Lions vs Cats vs Hawks vs Tigers
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Yeah but you can't be a long term "dynasty" of continual success if you've missed the finals 13 times in the past 30 years and failed to even win a final in 20 of those years, that was my point (unlike West Coast- If we take a long term view of dynasty)
Yes we are diverging quite a bit. But Hawks have more Flags than bad finals losses, and one of the longest periods since a spoon.
No team has done this recently, but I reckon West Coast has been closest.
West Coast and Geelong have been uniquely impressive clubs during my footy watching lifetime. For 2 reasons:
1. They've been in premiership contention most often- Geelong through most of 1989 until 1997 and 2004 to 2020. West Coast with 3 successive generations who all played multiple grand finals and won at least one flag each.
2. They're the only clubs who haven't truly bottomed out. West Coast have never missed finals for more than 3 consecutive years in their 34 year history. Geelong haven't missed more than 3 consecutive years since 1988, and haven't finished in the bottom 3 since 1975.
As a footnote: My earliest footy watching memory was on holidays with the family watching the 92GF. I had no way of knowing they'd turn out the most
impressive clubs. Also my grandparents were Geelong fans. Maybe I should've picked Geelong! Footy would've had a lot less heartache and more fun. But never! I wouldn't change a thing, I love the Saints despite our frustrating history.
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- Oct 14, 2006
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Every argument has a counter one.
Im a Hawks supporter yet I actually paid for the three Brisbane DVD’s those GF’s were so epic. But upon reflection Essendon were cooked in 2001, Hird went in with a hammy and they jumped into the GF. Collingwood are considered this formidable team for some reason but Hawks 2013-2015 would not be troubled by them.
In the end it all comes down to Premierships. End of story and any arguments against are sanctimonious rubbish.
Geelong 3
Brisbane 3
Hawks 4
Tigers ???
Hawks and maybe Tigers to overtake them but it’s a massive if so for now Hawks.
If you’re asking who would win the GF at their best on the day who knows. Probably Brisbane, but they battled in two of their Grand Finals. Hawks smashed a seemingly invincible Sydney and only struggled against the Purpe Haze but tell me Geelong, Brisbane or Richmond wouldn’t have either against that well drilled machine?
Im a Hawks supporter yet I actually paid for the three Brisbane DVD’s those GF’s were so epic. But upon reflection Essendon were cooked in 2001, Hird went in with a hammy and they jumped into the GF. Collingwood are considered this formidable team for some reason but Hawks 2013-2015 would not be troubled by them.
In the end it all comes down to Premierships. End of story and any arguments against are sanctimonious rubbish.
Geelong 3
Brisbane 3
Hawks 4
Tigers ???
Hawks and maybe Tigers to overtake them but it’s a massive if so for now Hawks.
If you’re asking who would win the GF at their best on the day who knows. Probably Brisbane, but they battled in two of their Grand Finals. Hawks smashed a seemingly invincible Sydney and only struggled against the Purpe Haze but tell me Geelong, Brisbane or Richmond wouldn’t have either against that well drilled machine?
Hawthorns 4 flags came against clubs which win flags themselves. Geelong 3 Sydney 2 eagles 2 (from 2000 on)
Richmond? Geelong 3 Sydney 2
Geelong? Collingwood 1 port 1
Brisbane? Essendon 1 Collingwood 1
how’s that strong opposition?
Richmond? Geelong 3 Sydney 2
Geelong? Collingwood 1 port 1
Brisbane? Essendon 1 Collingwood 1
how’s that strong opposition?
Geelong since 2004
3 Flags
5 Grand Finals
Made Finals 15 times
Won 20 finals games
Won 72% of Home & Away games - 264 wins, 3 draws, 101 losses.
0 Terrible seasons – Finished 11th or lower
Hawthorn since 2004
4 flags
5 Grand Finals
Made Finals 10 times
Won 16 finals games
Won 58% of Home & Away games- 214 wins, 2 draws, 153 losses.
5 Terrible seasons- Finished 11th or lower
Who would you rather have been following?
I would rather have been a Geelong fan.
Flags aren’t everything.
3 Flags
5 Grand Finals
Made Finals 15 times
Won 20 finals games
Won 72% of Home & Away games - 264 wins, 3 draws, 101 losses.
0 Terrible seasons – Finished 11th or lower
Hawthorn since 2004
4 flags
5 Grand Finals
Made Finals 10 times
Won 16 finals games
Won 58% of Home & Away games- 214 wins, 2 draws, 153 losses.
5 Terrible seasons- Finished 11th or lower
Who would you rather have been following?
I would rather have been a Geelong fan.
Flags aren’t everything.
- Aug 18, 2009
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Mmm, possibly a little selective. I seem to remember Hawthorn losing a pretty good player, too, but they only got a bag of chips for him. Geelong were actually strengthened by Ablett leaving, because he hasn't won a flag since, whereas the Cats used one of their two first-round compo picks on a future dual premiership hero*.
(* for the Tigers.)
- Aug 23, 2011
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- Grand Finals at the Gabba
Are you serious? I'd take the extra flag over the extra 4 wins a year. Most would.
Three years down the bottom in exchange for a flag? Yes please
And you've selectively chosen a starting point that makes Geelong look best, and they still come up short. If you're going to include 04, 05 and 06, why not include 03,02,01,00?
Lol at your last comment, good work.
i wouldn't say that just because we improved in 2011, it was BECAUSE Ablett left.
I guess it meant Duncan spent more time on the field than he otherwise would have at that stage of his career. Don't really think it was because he left that we got stronger though, more 'in spite of him leaving'
Why would he include a period that doesn't strengthen his argument? Selective or not, who the hell is going to add criteria that weakens their standpoint?
In comparison to Hawthorn, I personally would PROBABLY take the extra flag because their time down the bottom hasn't been debilitating yet. But it is an interesting trade off to give up basically going into EVERY season with a chance to win.
Well never agree if we have this basic disagreement. and why the hell quote winning percentage of H&A and not finals? glaring bias
"Flags arent everything" they're pretty damn close
They happened since the Lions first premiership
We're comparing 4 flags to 3.
That's not the same as comparing 1 flag to 0.
I'm a Saints fan and we haven't won a flag for 54 years. Would it have been better being a Bulldogs fan over the past 5 or 15 years? (Putting aside the fact that I love my Saints, and trying to be objective). Absolutely- they won a flag and we didn't.
But when you compare Geelong and Hawthorn, you're comparing:
- A club who was awesome basically the whole time and won 3 flags
- vs
- A club who was awesome some of the time and won 4 flags, but was also rubbish a lot of the time
I would've enjoyed following Geelong more than Hawthorn I reckon. They have consistently win games and put themselves in premiership contention for 17 years. Which the numbers show. Hawthorn haven't.
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- Feb 25, 2014
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Dynasty, Era, Kings of the World, whatever you want to call it... I'm just happy that Richmond are the current ones.
Eventually they'll just be a memory like Brisbane, Geelong and Hawthorn are now.
Eventually they'll just be a memory like Brisbane, Geelong and Hawthorn are now.
Geelong had a median age of 29 from their 2010 prelim team (excluding Ablett). They were old and everybody wrote them off. Hawthorn's 2013 team was younger.
That's why I'm more impressed by Geelong returning to the top after Ablett left, than I am by Hawthorn continuing their era after Buddy left.
Hawthorn had a forward line including Roughhead, Breust and Gunston, with Hale floating forward and Rioli dangerous too. As good as Buddy was, he was actually surplus to requirements if those guys remained healthy, which they did. (Geelong of course had a deep midfield and could cover Ablett's loss too). It's certainly an interesting fact that:
- Arguably the best midfielder of all time
- The best forward of the last 20 years
- The best defender of the past 10 years
All left their teams and their teams kept winning flags. Says a lot about the quality of those teams!
So now we are saying the hawks had a great forward line, BETTER than Geelongs (I dont think many would dispute that) but now we need to credit Geelong for overcoming deficiencies in their team?
Not sure both arguments can be run
You're misunderstanding me
Both teams had good enough groups to overcome the loss of a superstar
The reason I'm more impressed with Geelong is because their team was at a different stage regarding their alleged "premiership window".
Put another way- say Ablett left at the end of 2007 or 2008 instead of the end of 2010. Geelong following up with continued success would not be as impressive. In 2010 they were old, done and dusted supposedly, and they lost Ablett too. Yet they returned in 2011 with one of the greatest seasons any team has played in the modern era.
Wasn't there some internal conflict? which seemed to be resolved by both Junior and Bomber leaving?
2015 Hawks were the oldest premiers ever on the hottest GF day ever. Not sure any area of discussion is clear one way or another
There is a frustration in playing finals but falling early year after year.
Dunno
Saints missed finals 8 years straight
This year we gave it a good crack. It was a very enjoyable season. Hope is powerful.
I'm sure the sun shined harder on those Hawks than it did on the Eagles!
Roger that, a rebuild is enjoyable because the rest of the comp/the critics dont know how good your kids are.
Trust there is more development for you in 2021.
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