Greatest Dynasty of the 21st century - Lions vs Cats vs Hawks vs Tigers

Which dynasty is the greatest?


  • Total voters
    772

Remove this Banner Ad

Status
Not open for further replies.
Feb 23, 2009
32,142
45,745
Melbourne
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
New York Jets
A Richmond fan turns up, making the case for Brisbane.

The timing seems...


Its worth noting for a fair assessment, you'd have to wait until this Richmond dynasty is over. Maybe we don't win another flag in the next 2 years, but maybe we do and then we elevate again.
 

PJays

Club Legend
Suspended
Nov 2, 2020
1,659
1,924
AFL Club
St Kilda
I'm not sure why the pissfight is between Richmond, Hawks and Cats because for me, the Lions win this.

Three-peat: Check

Longevity with 4 GFs made in a row.

Won all 3 flags away from home against a Victorian side which many feel is a big achievement.

Great side on paper with the names and accolades (for those that need the side to look good on paper).
This to me clearly articulates why the argument is between Geelong and Brisbane

If you value the ability to rise to the occasion on the biggest stage for 3 years straight and the associated aura that creates, vote Brisbane. If you value winning on the road, vote Brisbane.

If you value longevity, vote Geelong. If you value truly great performances (like winning a grand final by 119 points after winning the qualifying final 3 weeks earlier by 106. Or comfortably winning the GF against a team who never lost a game to anyone else), vote Geelong. If you value triumph against awesome opposition, vote Geelong.

I value the second group more, so I've made the case for Geelong.

But why would anyone vote for Hawthorn or Richmond?
 
Nov 18, 2015
2,377
5,371
AFL Club
Geelong
I'm not sure why the pissfight is between Richmond, Hawks and Cats because for me, the Lions win this.

Three-peat: Check

Longevity with 4 GFs made in a row.

Won all 3 flags away from home against a Victorian side which many feel is a big achievement.

Great side on paper with the names and accolades (for those that need the side to look good on paper).

Because those three teams are all pretty close right now. I agree the Lions still stand alone. Tigs and Hawks both more successful than cats in the GF, Cats competitiveness over a long time has to be considered, heck they were in half the grandfinals that constitute the tigs/hawks dynastys
 

Log in to remove this ad.

PJays

Club Legend
Suspended
Nov 2, 2020
1,659
1,924
AFL Club
St Kilda
This to me clearly articulates why the argument is between Geelong and Brisbane

If you value the ability to rise to the occasion on the biggest stage for 3 years straight and the associated aura that creates, vote Brisbane. If you value winning on the road, vote Brisbane.

If you value longevity, vote Geelong. If you value truly great performances (like winning a grand final by 119 points after winning the qualifying final 3 weeks earlier by 106. Or comfortably winning the GF against a team who never lost a game to anyone else), vote Geelong. If you value triumph against awesome opposition, vote Geelong.

I value the second group more, so I've made the case for Geelong.

But why would anyone vote for Hawthorn or Richmond?
To clarify, I'm assuming people accept my assumptions that this is a debate about who the greatest team is

If you're going down the path of "well it was a different team, but "dynasty" encompasses multiple generations..... etc" fair enough. That's a methodological argument

My claim is simply that Geelong and Brisbane's teams are greater than the teams of Hawthorn or Richmond. By team I mean a fairly consistent group of players
 

HAPPY BUDDHA

🤣🤣🤣
10k Posts
Oct 2, 2018
13,670
20,324
Scarborough
AFL Club
West Coast
Other Teams
East Perth Royals
Roby logic.

I've never seen anyone with 237 posts in a thread and yet contribute so little.
I am just waiting for him to show us on the doll where the bad Geelong man touched him.

Not sure if it was the “Kennett Curse” that has triggered it but I seriously have never seen someone so melty over another teams success. :$
 
Feb 4, 2008
12,967
27,948
Melbourne
AFL Club
Richmond
This to me clearly articulates why the argument is between Geelong and Brisbane

If you value the ability to rise to the occasion on the biggest stage for 3 years straight and the associated aura that creates, vote Brisbane. If you value winning on the road, vote Brisbane.

If you value longevity, vote Geelong. If you value truly great performances (like winning a grand final by 119 points after winning the qualifying final 3 weeks earlier by 106. Or comfortably winning the GF against a team who never lost a game to anyone else), vote Geelong. If you value triumph against awesome opposition, vote Geelong.

I value the second group more, so I've made the case for Geelong.

But why would anyone vote for Hawthorn or Richmond?

💁

You are going to look a proper goose if the Tigers win any more, because one of the teams you are saying can’t be as good as the Cats and Lions will have outperformed both of them in the main place that matters, premierships won column.

And Hawthorn also had a 4th Grand Final they weren’t far off winning in their run plus another flag 4 years prior to that, upsetting your first choice. 😜. Neither of your mobs have either of those things on their CV. With the Cats you are arguing on one hand they are the best because they beat the best opponents in finals in terms on those opponent’s home and away wins. Then you are arguing the Cats are the best because they beat spud teams in finals by massive margins. The clubs they beat in Grand Finals have won one flag in 124 seasons, one in 25 seasons and 2 in 62 seasons. Four flags in 211 seasons they beat in Grand Finals. Anyone can beat spuds who don’t know how to win Grand Finals. 😁😁

I would stick to making your arguments rather than asking why anyone would make an alternative argument. All four teams have genuinely arguable cases.
 

PJays

Club Legend
Suspended
Nov 2, 2020
1,659
1,924
AFL Club
St Kilda
You are going to look a proper goose if the Tigers win any more, because one of the teams you are saying can’t be as good as the Cats and Lions will have outperformed both of them in the main place that matters, premierships won column.



It's 2020. We're discussing who's the greatest right now.

If Gold Coast win the next 5 premierships they'll be greater than any of these 4 too.

Did I really have to explain this?????

Four flags in 211 seasons they beat in Grand Finals.



If you're gonna use this argument then I'm going to use one that's equally dumb.

Port 2007 were a great team because Port Adelaide has actually won 37 premierships.

Look it up!

Ergo, Geelong were the greatest of the dynasties- they beat an opponent with the most premierships!
 
Feb 23, 2009
32,142
45,745
Melbourne
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
New York Jets
This to me clearly articulates why the argument is between Geelong and Brisbane

If you value the ability to rise to the occasion on the biggest stage for 3 years straight and the associated aura that creates, vote Brisbane. If you value winning on the road, vote Brisbane.

If you value longevity, vote Geelong. If you value truly great performances (like winning a grand final by 119 points after winning the qualifying final 3 weeks earlier by 106. Or comfortably winning the GF against a team who never lost a game to anyone else), vote Geelong. If you value triumph against awesome opposition, vote Geelong.

I value the second group more, so I've made the case for Geelong.

But why would anyone vote for Hawthorn or Richmond?
Your reason for Geelong, is my reason against Geelong.

The achievement of consecutive premierships is greater imo, there is no going back to the well, winning consecutive premierships is like winning a huge series of cut-throat games, theres no double chance on offer in between.
 
Last edited:

Lip Gallagher

Club Legend
Nov 11, 2020
1,498
1,680
AFL Club
Collingwood
Hawks-Lions-Tigers-Cats.

Pies a clear 5th, but it you turn the table sideways and upside down and shake it a little we become no1.
 

HAPPY BUDDHA

🤣🤣🤣
10k Posts
Oct 2, 2018
13,670
20,324
Scarborough
AFL Club
West Coast
Other Teams
East Perth Royals
Your reason for Geelong, is my reason against Geelong.

The achievement of consecutive premierships is greater imo, there is no going back to the well, winning consecutive premierships is like winning a huge series of cut-throat games, theres no double chance on offer in between.
Winning, choking, winning again, getting demolished, then winning again against the team who demolished them is pretty damn good bro. Add into that a sustained run of wins over the team they choked to in revenge says something solid about that side.

Remember they lost the best player in the league and the best coach at the time during their run & it really is an effort hard to go past.
 
Feb 4, 2008
12,967
27,948
Melbourne
AFL Club
Richmond
Geelong- 3 time premiership players

Bartel
Chapman
Corey
Enright
Johnson
Kelly
Ling
Mackie
Ottens
Selwood
Scarlett
Wojinscki


Players who were team regulars or in the selection mix for 5 years but missed one flag due to form or injury

2007 and 2011:

Hunt- 2007 and 2011. ACL injury kept him out in 2009.
Stokes- 2007 and 2011. Missed 2009 prelim due to groin injury. Couldn't get back into side for 2009 GF after Geelong thrashed Collingwood.

Others:
Byrnes- 2007 and 2009. Calf and knee injuries in 2011. Emergency for 2011 GF.
Hawkins- 2009 and 2011. Rookie in 2007; played 9 games.
Milburn- 2007 and 2009. Played 14 games in 2011; emergency for 2011 GF.
Mooney- 2007 and 2009. Injuries in 2011, played 8 games only and retired after 2011.
Varcoe- 2009 and 2011. Played 18 games in 2007. Missed selection for GF.


2 time premiership players with Geelong for the majority of the 5 year period
Ablett- 2007 and 2009. Joined Gold Coast for 2011.
Harley- 2007 and 2009. Retired after 2009.
Rooke- 2007 and 2009. Significant injuries forced him out of the game. Last season 2010.
Taylor- 2009 and 2011. Rookie in 2008. Regular 2008-2011.


Geelong’s continuity
  • 19 players in the selection mix from 2007 to 2011, but 7 only played two flags due to injury or form.
  • 14 players who played in 2007 and 2011 premierships. 2 missed 2009 due to injury, making 12 triple premiership players.
  • The top 8 of the 2011 B&F were all triple premiership players. Enright, Corey, Bartel, Ling, Kelly, Selwood, Scarlett, Johnson.
  • 7 of the top 10 in the 2007 B&F were triple premiership players: Bartel, Ling, Scarlett Corey, Johnson, Ottens, Enright.
  • 6 players were top 10 in both the 2007 and 2011 B&F: Enright, Corey, Bartel, Ling, Johnson, Scarlett.
  • Ottens, Selwood and Kelly are triple premiership players who finished top 10 in one year's B&F or the other. Wojcinski, Mackie and Chapman didn't finish top 10 in either year but played 3 premierships (Chapman was All Australian in 2009 and 2010).
  • 11 of the 12 triple premiership players were All Australians at some point in their careers.

Longevity of Greatness
  • With 19 players in the selection mix for the entire 5 year period, 14 players who played in the bookending 2007 and 2011 flags, and 12 triple premiership players, Geelong had substantial continuity through their team or group for 5 years. They had substantially the same team.

  • Geelong also had substantially the same core- with most of the 12 premiership players being amongst their best players, as shown by the 2007 and 2011 Best and Fairest results.

  • Contrast this to Hawthorn: Only 9 continuing players to 2013 and 6 to 2015. Only 4 of the top 10 in the 2013 B&F and 4 of the top 10 in 2015 were continuing from 2008.

  • Hawthorn joins other clubs who have won flags longer apart but with a substantially different core. Essendon 1993 and 2000 (5 continuing players), Sydney 2005 and 2012.

  • Others had a continuing core and team, and were competing for flags for extended periods but failed to achieve flag-winning greatness 4 years apart. Brisbane, Hawthorn, North Melbourne.

  • Geelong achieved a flag-winning level of greatness with substantially the same team 4 years apart. They are the only team of the AFL era to achieve this. North Melbourne did it 3 years apart in 1996 and 1999.

  • Richmond has the opportunity to match this feat in 2021.


Back2Back
  • The knock on Geelong was they never went back2back.

  • Plenty of teams have gone B2B in the AFL era- Adelaide, Brisbane, Hawthorn, Richmond. Sydney came very close.

  • There are 16 clubs who have existed for the majority of the AFL era (Exc. GWS and GC who are new). Basically a third of the competition has gone back2back or come extremely close.

  • Geelong achieved something none of those teams did.

  • Geelong was the only team still good enough to win a flag 4 years later with substantially the same group.

  • What Geelong did was rarer, and therefore more impressive.


Geelong vs the AFL system

  • Since the salary cap was introduced in 1987, 11 of the 14 clubs who existed in 1987 have won a flag. (All but St.Kilda who got to the dying seconds twice in a row, Melbourne who lost the 2000 GF and Fitzroy who merged with Brisbane- who won 3). Adelaide (joined 1991) and Port (joined 1997) have also won a flag. From a long term perspective, winning a flag isn’t that impressive.

  • The salary cap and draft are designed to ensure that every team has an opportunity to win. And that’s happened. But teams aren’t meant to stay at the top and keep winning flags over a 5 year period. That’s not how the AFL intends the system to work.

  • Teams generally have a short “premiership window” and then rebuild or restore. However Geelong kept a group together and won another flag, 4 years after their first flag with the same group. Something no one else has done.

  • Geelong beat the AFL system like no one else has.

This post is some vaguely relevant factual stuff mixed with some horrendously skewed conclusions on your part PJays.

You seem now to be arguing for things you want to be true.

I gave my view earlier in the thread on the claim the threepeat with no other flag in a 5 year window was not in reality superior to 3 flags in 4 seasons or 3 in 5 seasons in any combination. That imo is unarguable. To say otherwise would be to argue that $300 earned in a certain sequence is of greater value than $300 earned in some other sequence. It just straight out isn’t. I made this argument because I thought the argument dismissing Geelong’s and Richmond’s claims on the basis they had not won 3 in succession was flawed. Now you have turned it the other way and are trying to claim 3 flags spread over 5 seasons is somehow on another plane to 3 in 3 or 3 in 4. It isn’t, it wasn’t, and it will never be. In terms of Premierships, the clubs have all achieved the same within their window, 3 flags. That is what I presume gave rise to this thread, that there are now four clubs who at some point in the last 20 years have won 3 flags in a five year window. No sequence of achieving 3 flags in 5 seasons is by definition better than any other sequence so you are now being silly.

If you think the Cats were better, fair enough, but trying to dress up what is more or less the same achievement in terms of flags as if it is superior adds nothing to your argument.

Some Geelong supporters on this thread have covered themselves in about as much glory as their team did in the last term of this year’s Grand Final, and I include you in that.

This last part of the thread is unbecoming of some of the better discussion that has taken place on the thread. You are now reduced as low as making a post suggesting there is no reason for anyone to argue for Richmond or Hawthorn. That is total tunnel-vision on your part. You are essentially saying if people hold a different view to yours their view is of no value. Right.

Then the suggestion by you and others that x and y supporters are talking gibberish throughout the thread etc. Plenty of people who support both Hawks and Tigers have contributed meaningfully to the thread. You and others seem to be arguing that anyone who doesn’t see the world through the clouded prism you provide is one-eyed. Rubbish.

To quote a certain famous passage:

"How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye."
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Fadge

Brownlow Medallist
Mar 4, 2007
17,880
17,265
Melbourne
AFL Club
Collingwood
Then the suggestion by you and others that x and y supporters are talking gibberish throughout the thread etc. Plenty of people who support both Hawks and Tigers have contributed meaningfully to the thread. You and others seem to be arguing that anyone who doesn’t see the world through the clouded prism you provide is one-eyed. Rubbish.
Respectfully disagree.

The comment was about the insecurity of Hawthorn and Richmond supporters getting all precious when posters are pushing the case for clubs other than their own.

Maybe we're tarring others with the brush being wielded by the likes of Roby, Barry and dean33, but happy for you to highlight any balanced and non-biased posts (before the comment was made) from anyone other than BuddyHawk and RichLeMonde, as representatives of the two clubs in question.
 
Last edited:
Apr 20, 2014
43,201
88,244
Brunch
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
Aston Villa
Winning, choking, winning again, getting demolished, then winning again against the team who demolished them is pretty damn good bro. Add into that a sustained run of wins over the team they choked to in revenge says something solid about that side.

Remember they lost the best player in the league and the best coach at the time during their run & it really is an effort hard to go past.
The Tigers lost Rance, the best defender in the league, and almost to a man people said we were cooked.

That's what makes all of these sides great. In different ways, the ability to overcome or adapt when faced with adversity.
 
Feb 4, 2008
12,967
27,948
Melbourne
AFL Club
Richmond
Respectfully disagree.

The comment was about the insecurity of Hawthorn and Richmond supporters getting all precious when posters are pushing the case for clubs other than their own.

Maybe we're tarring others with the brush being wielded by the likes of Roby and Barry, but happy for you to highlight any balanced and non-biased posts (before the comment was made) from anyone other than BuddyHawk and RichLeMonde, as representatives of the two clubs in question.

For a start I am a Richmond supporter and I have given a load of critical posts within this thread nothing to do with being biased, just simply pointing out what I see as flaws in some of the arguments being advanced from all angles. And when people have attacked what they see as errors in my thinking I have responded to the criticism point by point, and on point. And I have seen plenty of other posters doing similar.

The post by PJays I was responding to here, whilst I have no issue with the facts presented, his conclusions drawn from them are starting to border on absurdity and his dismissal of people who have or might argue cases for anyone other than his own line of thinking is total arrogance. That many of his own posts I have read have contained rationale you could drive a truck through only makes this more ludicrous.

You yourself have reduced it to two posters from Richmond and Hawthorn who are unbiased. That is extremely clumsy at best, which I must now say to your credit you seem to have at least partly acknowledged in your latest post. I have read most of the thread and barely seen a Richmond supporter claiming outright Richmond are the greatest dynasty of the four. Many have not even rated their own team in the top two. And I have seen loads of unbiased posts from different Hawks supporters as well.

If you think Roby’s or Barry’s or whoever’s posts smack of bias or have weak points then point out the flaws in their arguments when you see them. But they or anyone else are as entitled to argue the case as they see it as anybody else here.

If I can put my biases aside for one moment to make a point by leaving Richmond out of the equation, I have a lot of trouble distinguishing between the overall achievements of the other three clubs in terms of rating one better than the other. You could argue a coherent case for any of the three without ever needing to show any bias. For this reason I find PJays following question in one of his posts to be particularly galling, especially after 60+ pages of people putting some at times good arguments forward:

PJ - "But why would anyone vote for Hawthorn or Richmond?”

That question is a dead set mess on all sorts of different levels when you think about it, and if I were you I wouldn’t be hitching your wagon to him.
 

PJays

Club Legend
Suspended
Nov 2, 2020
1,659
1,924
AFL Club
St Kilda
Now you have turned it the other way and are trying to claim 3 flags spread over 5 seasons is somehow on another plane to 3 in 3 or 3 in 4. It isn’t, it wasn’t, and it will never be. In terms of Premierships, the clubs have all achieved the same within their window, 3 flags. That is what I presume gave rise to this thread, that there are now four clubs who at some point in the last 20 years have won 3 flags in a five year window. No sequence of achieving 3 flags in 5 seasons is by definition better than any other sequence so you are now being silly.

Prima facie you're correct.

That's the exact point I made- in a sequential, less polemic fashion in a previous post (maybe 10 pages ago) where I made a 7 step argument explaining that the 3 in 5 and the 3 in 3 were pretty similar in terms of overall greatness and so we should consider other factors when comparing these 4 teams.

Of course, prima facie 3=3. All these teams are great. So we need to analyse further. Let’s ask: What differentiates Geelong's specific achievements within the AFL context compared to the other 3 teams?

I made two specific claims yesterday:

  • Geelong's achievement is rarer. They've done something no one else has. People who think B2B is especially awesome need to reflect on why something so common is supposedly better than something so rare and unique.

  • The AFL's equalization context- salary cap and draft- gives us clues as to why Geelong's achievements with their group are so rare and therefore so special. And why the achievements of 3peaters Hawthorn, Brisbane, and also fellow B2Bers Richmond and Adelaide, are not as rare.

You are now reduced as low as making a post suggesting there is no reason for anyone to argue for Richmond or Hawthorn. That is total tunnel-vision on your part. You are essentially saying if people hold a different view to yours their view is of no value. Right.

Then the suggestion by you and others that x and y supporters are talking gibberish throughout the thread etc. Plenty of people who support both Hawks and Tigers have contributed meaningfully to the thread. You and others seem to be arguing that anyone who doesn’t see the world through the clouded prism you provide is one-eyed. Rubbish.

I made 2 very specific claims. Both of which you seem to have misunderstood.

1. If you're arguing within the same framework as me (ie: who is the better team/group, not club) then the arguments for Geelong and Brisbane are clearly superior. There aren't comparatively good reasons to vote Hawthorn or Richmond.

Brisbane vs Hawthorn is comparing apples vs apples. 3peat, 4 straight GF’s, some especially famous, quality GF performances (2001, 2003, 2014). But Brisbane has the added factor of winning on the road every year, whereas Hawthorn was handed undeserved home grand finals because of the idiosyncratic, Victorian centric AFL system in 2014 and 2015. So surely Brisbane has the edge?

Whereas if you value other things like I do- longevity, truly amazing performances, beating the best opposition, dominating throughout the season and following up by dominating finals too- then you should vote Geelong.

2. There has been some seriously one-eyed nonsense in this thread that has lowered the quality of the discussion. And the vast majority of it has come from Richmond and Hawthorn fans. With a couple of notable exceptions (BuddyHawk, RichLeMonde and maybe one or two others), there’s been a distinct lack of solid analysis, an overkill of superficial comments favoring their own teams and a lack of quality engagement with the points of others who disagree.

Feel free to point out counter examples of this. Perhaps I’m just coloured by seeing a high volume of comments by the usual suspects- Roby, The CryptKeeper, Barry so again, apologies if I’ve missed any fair minded contributors.
 

PJays

Club Legend
Suspended
Nov 2, 2020
1,659
1,924
AFL Club
St Kilda
The Tigers lost Rance, the best defender in the league, and almost to a man people said we were cooked.

That's what makes all of these sides great. In different ways, the ability to overcome or adapt when faced with adversity.

The best midfielder of all time (arguably),

the best forward of the past 20 years

and the best defender of the past decade.

Have something in common. They left their team and their team won at least one more flag.

That tells us plenty about the greatness of these groups.

It also tells us something about AFL footy. In a sport with 36 players on a field of play over 20,000 square metres, no individual is greater than the team.

We as fans love our narratives and our individual stars but maybe we typically overrate their importance. Maybe we spend too long talking about great individuals and not enough time wondering why groups succeed or fail. I know I'm guilty of this, and the tale of Ablett, Rance and Buddy, and the Cats, Tigers and Hawks is a great reminder.
 

HAPPY BUDDHA

🤣🤣🤣
10k Posts
Oct 2, 2018
13,670
20,324
Scarborough
AFL Club
West Coast
Other Teams
East Perth Royals
The Tigers lost Rance, the best defender in the league, and almost to a man people said we were cooked.
“Lost Rance”..? Either he walked freely or you kicked him out, which one?

Whatever it was Rance had nothing on Ablett at his peak.

If Martin and Dimma both walked out now, not retired but walked out, how do you really think Richmond would cope..?

Thats what the Cats dealt with and still marched on. I really don’t see Richmond doing that without Dusty & Hardwick.
 
May 5, 2016
43,480
48,514
AFL Club
Geelong
I get the focus on players, but if a club turned over its whole playing list every year while continually winning flags, I'd see that as one dominant era, not many separate ones in a row. Otherwise you ignore the input of the coaching staff & club admin. A team is more than just a collection of individual players - especially Richmond and Hawthorn, who are very much products of their coaches.


That's more a rap on the club than the team though
 
Apr 20, 2014
43,201
88,244
Brunch
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
Aston Villa
“Lost Rance”..? Either he walked freely or you kicked him out, which one?

Whatever it was Rance had nothing on Ablett at his peak.

If Martin and Dimma both walked out now, not retired but walked out, how do you really think Richmond would cope..?

Thats what the Cats dealt with and still marched on. I really don’t see Richmond doing that without Dusty & Hardwick.
Um, he did his knee in round 1. And everyone said we were no hope because he was out for the season.

Best defender in the game at the peak of his powers.

You going to injury troll now?
 

HAPPY BUDDHA

🤣🤣🤣
10k Posts
Oct 2, 2018
13,670
20,324
Scarborough
AFL Club
West Coast
Other Teams
East Perth Royals
Um, he did his knee in round 1. And everyone said we were no hope because he was out for the season.

Best defender in the game at the peak of his powers.

You going to injury troll now?
Haha oh please, never took you for a sooky la la. :$

Whatever it was Rance had nothing on Ablett at his peak.

If Martin and Dimma both walked out now, not retired but walked out, how do you really think Richmond would cope..?

Thats what the Cats dealt with and still marched on. I really don’t see Richmond doing that without Dusty & Hardwick.
 

Grrr

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 16, 2009
11,564
26,256
mildura
AFL Club
Richmond
“Lost Rance”..? Either he walked freely or you kicked him out, which one?

Whatever it was Rance had nothing on Ablett at his peak.

If Martin and Dimma both walked out now, not retired but walked out, how do you really think Richmond would cope..?

Thats what the Cats dealt with and still marched on. I really don’t see Richmond doing that without Dusty & Hardwick.
Considering Martin according to many on here only comes to play only at finals times, ie not worthy of AA for the last two years, yet Richmond still are up at the pointy end of the season the last few years, perhaps we don't rely on Martin as much as you think. Obviously his Grand Final this year was a big part of the win, but that doesn't mean without martin we are no good. Certainly Martin did not have much influence on the result last GF because it was such a thumping anyway. 2017 even, many consider him not BOG, and Adelaide were never in it after half time. Perhaps the team is mightier than one player.

And what difference does it make how or why Rance left, and why would you say we 'kicked him out'. Nonsense point.
 
Feb 4, 2008
12,967
27,948
Melbourne
AFL Club
Richmond
Prima facie you're correct.

That's the exact point I made- in a sequential, less polemic fashion in a previous post (maybe 10 pages ago) where I made a 7 step argument explaining that the 3 in 5 and the 3 in 3 were pretty similar in terms of overall greatness and so we should consider other factors when comparing these 4 teams.

Of course, prima facie 3=3. All these teams are great. So we need to analyse further. Let’s ask: What differentiates Geelong's specific achievements within the AFL context compared to the other 3 teams?

I made two specific claims yesterday:

  • Geelong's achievement is rarer. They've done something no one else has. People who think B2B is especially awesome need to reflect on why something so common is supposedly better than something so rare and unique.

  • The AFL's equalization context- salary cap and draft- gives us clues as to why Geelong's achievements with their group are so rare and therefore so special. And why the achievements of 3peaters Hawthorn, Brisbane, and also fellow B2Bers Richmond and Adelaide, are not as rare.



I made 2 very specific claims. Both of which you seem to have misunderstood.

1. If you're arguing within the same framework as me (ie: who is the better team/group, not club) then the arguments for Geelong and Brisbane are clearly superior. There aren't comparatively good reasons to vote Hawthorn or Richmond.

Brisbane vs Hawthorn is comparing apples vs apples. 3peat, 4 straight GF’s, some especially famous, quality GF performances (2001, 2003, 2014). But Brisbane has the added factor of winning on the road every year, whereas Hawthorn was handed undeserved home grand finals because of the idiosyncratic, Victorian centric AFL system in 2014 and 2015. So surely Brisbane has the edge?

Whereas if you value other things like I do- longevity, truly amazing performances, beating the best opposition, dominating throughout the season and following up by dominating finals too- then you should vote Geelong.

2. There has been some seriously one-eyed nonsense in this thread that has lowered the quality of the discussion. And the vast majority of it has come from Richmond and Hawthorn fans. With a couple of notable exceptions (BuddyHawk, RichLeMonde and maybe one or two others), there’s been a distinct lack of solid analysis, an overkill of superficial comments favoring their own teams and a lack of quality engagement with the points of others who disagree.

Feel free to point out counter examples of this. Perhaps I’m just coloured by seeing a high volume of comments by the usual suspects- Roby, The CryptKeeper, Barry so again, apologies if I’ve missed any fair minded contributors.

PJays you posted the following question after making your case for 1. Geelong and 2. Brisbane:

"Why would anyone vote for Hawthorn or Richmond?”

After 60+ pages of some at times perfectly reasonable arguments being advanced….then you have the unmitigated gall to make sweeping statements about the lack of value in people’s posts who disagree with you. Even Roby who has copped so much flak from you and others has made some perfectly reasonable points in defence of his position. So there are very obvious reasons that people might argue for the Hawks for a start that your question both denies and dismisses.

Make your arguments for the Cats, but having read a lot of your posts it appears you have have started from an impression you think the Cats are the greatest dynasty and then found reasons to justify it rather than starting from facts and reasoning your way to your conclusions. Which is exactly what you are accusing others of doing.

Also, you are shapeshifting now. On one hand you ask a question completely dismissive of any argument for Hawthorn or Richmond UNCONDITIONALLY. Now in the part I have bolded in your post above you are adding the condition that a person needs to be arguing from the same framework as you you for this question to be relevant as if that was made clear from the start. It wasn’t. Don’t shapeshift. Just concede the error and move on.

Your second point above, I would not be sermonising about lack of quality engagement with others who disagree if I were you.
 

HAPPY BUDDHA

🤣🤣🤣
10k Posts
Oct 2, 2018
13,670
20,324
Scarborough
AFL Club
West Coast
Other Teams
East Perth Royals
Considering Martin according to many on here only comes to play only at finals times, ie not worthy of AA for the last two years, yet Richmond still are up at the pointy end of the season the last few years, perhaps we don't rely on Martin as much as you think. Obviously his Grand Final this year was a big part of the win, but that doesn't mean without martin we are no good. Certainly Martin did not have much influence on the result last GF because it was such a thumping anyway. 2017 even, many consider him not BOG, and Adelaide were never in it after half time. Perhaps the team is mightier than one player.

And what difference does it make how or why Rance left, and why would you say we 'kicked him out'. Nonsense point.
Solid sook. 10/10 👍

But realistically how do you think you would be if both Martin and Dimma suddenly walked to other clubs in the next few days?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back