Greatest Dynasty of the 21st century - Lions vs Cats vs Hawks vs Tigers

[PJays]

Top 2 was a little harder than usual for Vic teams in 2020...

View attachment 1042263

Thanks for that graphic.

That's a handy illustration of why I rate Richmond’s 2020 flag as their greatest achievement.

Unlike 2017 when they scraped into top 4 and got an exceedingly generous rub of the green with finals matchups and venues.

Or 2019 when they again scraped into the top 4, and luckily drew one of the weakest Grand Final opponents ever, who defeated Richmond's arch nemesis in a prelim nail biter despite less scoring shots and inside 50s.

 

[Noidnadroj]

Thanks for that graphic.

That's a handy illustration of why I rate Richmond’s 2020 flag as their greatest achievement.

Unlike 2017 when they scraped into top 4 and got an exceedingly generous rub of the green with finals matchups and venues.

Or 2019 when they again scraped into the top 4, and luckily drew one of the weakest Grand Final opponents ever, who defeated Richmond's arch nemesis in a prelim nail biter.

GWS are the only team to have won finals 4-years straight from 2016-2019. They’d won more finals than any other team in this era except Richmond. So not saying they were a strong opponent, but it wasn’t like they didn’t have an impressive record of performing well in finals.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Noidnadroj]

Alternatively....

A team like St.Kilda, with prime Riewoldt, Hayes, Dal Santo, Montagna, Milne and Fisher, plus twilight Gehrig and Harvey missing the top 8 shows the strength of that season as a whole.

A team like GWS making the Grand Final shows the weakness of the 2019 season as a whole.

One team's result doesn't show anything.

Ok .... just the facts of 2007 then, and others can decide if other dynasty teams would have performed well that season.:

1. Kangas were statistically the worst top-4 team in the AFL era.
2. Pies were statistically the worst prelim finals team of the AFL era (13-9 and percentage of 100%).
3. Kangas were statistically the worst prelim finalist of the AFL era based on lead-in finals results.
4. Port beat an injury hit Eagles in QF at home by 3-points, then beat the worst prelim finalist in the AFL era.
5. The top-4 was statistically the worst in the AFL era.


Geelong were a great team in 2007, you get no argument from me on that.



Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[PhatBoy]

Of course they paint Geelong in a positive light, I never said otherwise. In fact I said it looked an impressive record, just not outrageously so for such a strong team when you break down the opposition in the matches that were played on truly unfamiliar grounds.

I was also seeking to examine the overall “away” record as highlighted by yourself and others. The MCG and Docklands. Grounds that you play or have played 8 games per season are not grounds where you are giving up any sort of away venue disadvantage, do you not agree with that?

Well no, I don't. One of the primary criticisms aimed at Geelong is that we get to train at our home venue. The inference being that knowing the dimensions of one's home ground and training there regularly is somehow what gives a team its primary home advantage - as opposed to crowd factors. So it isn't like we train at the MCG before every game there.

Every club plays enough games at the MCG for it to not be foreign. The Lions of 2001-04 played enough there that it wasn't unfamiliar at all and so does pretty much everyone. Familiarity doesn't magically make it easier to win there though when the teams you are predominantly play there, are based there and have home crowd support.

 

[PJays]

Ok .... just the facts of 2007 then, and others can decide if other dynasty teams would have performed well that season.:

1. Kangas were statistically the worst top-4 team in the AFL era.

Wrong.

Collingwood 2002 or Adelaide 1997. There's probably other examples, that's just off the top of my head.

Besides the true top 4 is decided after finals. Many prelim finalists have had a record less than the Kangas 14-8. Eg GWS 2019, Adelaide 1997 and 1998, Coll 2002, all grand finalists. Adelaide 2 time premiers.

2. Pies were statistically the worst prelim finals team of the AFL era (13-9 and percentage of 100%).

Again wrong.

Obviously you don't realise Carlton made a Grand Final with a 12-10 record (1999).

I stopped reading here.

 

[Fadge]

Wrong.

Collingwood 2002 or Adelaide 1997. There's probably other examples, that's just off the top of my head.

Besides the true top 4 is decided after finals. Many prelim finalists have had a record less than the Kangas 14-8. Eg GWS 2019, Adelaide 1997 and 1998, Coll 2002, all grand finalists. Adelaide 2 time premiers.



Again wrong.

Obviously you don't realise Carlton made a Grand Final with a 12-10 record (1999).

I stopped reading here.

You would like to think that if someone posts that a certain team was 'statistically this' and 'statistically that', they would have actually looked at the statistics.

Nope, not our friend Noidnadroj

 

[Noidnadroj]

You would like to think that if someone posts that a certain team was 'statistically this' and 'statistically that', they would have actually looked at the statistics.

Nope, not our friend Noidnadroj

Yeah, my bad. I usually check but didn’t this time and my memory was mostly reliable for 20-years. I should have said:

1. Kangas were statistically the second worst top-4 team since 2002 - only Saints of 2008 worse.

2. Pies are statistically the worst performed prelim team of the last 20-years - worst since 1999.

3. Kangas one of the worst prelim finalists in AFL era (arguably the worst) based on poor win/loss, poor percentage and woeful finals results.

4. The Pies and Kangas losing prelim combo very, very weak.

But I agree, when quoting stats I need to double check and not rely on memory.



Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Well no, I don't. One of the primary criticisms aimed at Geelong is that we get to train at our home venue. The inference being that knowing the dimensions of one's home ground and training there regularly is somehow what gives a team its primary home advantage - as opposed to crowd factors. So it isn't like we train at the MCG before every game there.

Every club plays enough games at the MCG for it to not be foreign. The Lions of 2001-04 played enough there that it wasn't unfamiliar at all and so does pretty much everyone. Familiarity doesn't magically make it easier to win there though when the teams you are predominantly play there, are based there and have home crowd support.

The only real advantage other home teams have at the MCG is an edge with crowd numbers but even that is not often overwhelming. The full tenants spend about 12 hours more there per season than the Cats. During the dynasty years the Cats were also very familiar at Docklands. Less so now.

So according to the way you guys are presenting the Cats dynasty away record:

1 Geelong match at MCG = 1 Richmond/other club match at the litter tray.

That is laughable to be honest.

 

[PhatBoy]

The only real advantage other home teams have at the MCG is an edge with crowd numbers but even that is not often overwhelming. The full tenants spend about 12 hours more there per season than the Cats. During the dynasty years the Cats were also very familiar at Docklands. Less so now.

So according to the way you guys are presenting the Cats dynasty away record:

1 Geelong match at MCG = 1 Richmond/other club match at the litter tray.

That is laughable to be honest.

No one has to present it any way. We won most of our games on any field we turned up at. It doesn't need embellishment.

 

[Noidnadroj]

The only real advantage other home teams have at the MCG is an edge with crowd numbers but even that is not often overwhelming. The full tenants spend about 12 hours more there per season than the Cats. During the dynasty years the Cats were also very familiar at Docklands. Less so now.

So according to the way you guys are presenting the Cats dynasty away record:

1 Geelong match at MCG = 1 Richmond/other club match at the litter tray.

That is laughable to be honest.

I think that’s the difficulty the AFL faces with fixturing finals at the Cattery - eg. Geelong v Dogs or Hawks in a QF. If Geelong is higher it’s played at the Cattery. If Dogs or Hawks finish higher it’s played at Docklands or MCG - hardly like for like.

Geelong train and play on a ground with dimensions unlike any other, and very few away supporters can get in.... and teams may not have set foot on the ground for years - so massive ground and crowd advantage.

So I’m not sure what the ideal solution is, but giving Geelong H&A free kicks followed by finals free kicks is not it.

Maybe it’s finals against non-Vic teams are played at the Cattery, given in reverse the Cats would suffer the equivalent away disadvantage. ..?


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Meteoric Rise]

I think that’s the difficulty the AFL faces with fixturing finals at the Cattery - eg. Geelong v Dogs or Hawks in a QF. If Geelong is higher it’s played at the Cattery. If Dogs or Hawks finish higher it’s played at Docklands or MCG - hardly like for like.

Geelong train and play on a ground with dimensions unlike any other, and very few away supporters can get in.... and teams may not have set foot on the ground for years - so massive ground and crowd advantage.

So I’m not sure what the ideal solution is, but giving Geelong H&A free kicks followed by finals free kicks is not it.

Maybe it’s finals against non-Vic teams are played at the Cattery, given in reverse the Cats would suffer the equivalent away disadvantage. ..?


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

Spot on. To be fair if Cats finish higher and play Tigers the Cats should get to play their home final where Richmond never gets to play at all, like The Swinburne.

 

[HTT]

Thanks for that graphic.

That's a handy illustration of why I rate Richmond’s 2020 flag as their greatest achievement.

Unlike 2017 when they scraped into top 4 and got an exceedingly generous rub of the green with finals matchups and venues.

Or 2019 when they again scraped into the top 4, and luckily drew one of the weakest Grand Final opponents ever, who defeated Richmond's arch nemesis in a prelim nail biter despite less scoring shots and inside 50s.

Not sure what was exceedingly generous about the 2017 finals draw. We started by playing a team we hadn't beaten for 11 years.

Given you clearly think Collingwood would have most likely beaten us in 2019 based on winning two games against us in the 12 months prior, that must mean we started that game 100-1 outsiders in your eyes. A truly phenomenal effort to win.

 

[Noidnadroj]

Not sure what was exceedingly generous about the 2017 finals draw. We started by playing a team we hadn't beaten for 11 years.

Given you clearly think Collingwood would have most likely beaten us in 2019 based on winning two games against us in the 12 months prior, that must mean we started that game 100-1 outsiders in your eyes. A truly phenomenal effort to win.

Excellent point. But you’ll soon learn in this thread, luck only runs one way.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Ron The Bear]

Unlike 2017 when they scraped into top 4 and got an exceedingly generous rub of the green with finals matchups and venues.

Beat Geelong (3rd) by 51 and GWS (4th) by 36. Adelaide beat the same sides by 61 and 36.

Or 2019 when they again scraped into the top 4, and luckily drew one of the weakest Grand Final opponents ever, who defeated Richmond's arch nemesis in a prelim nail biter despite less scoring shots and inside 50s.

Won 12 straight to finish the season, defeating every other contender, some more than once.

Stop talking s**t.

 

[Noidnadroj]

Thanks for that graphic.

That's a handy illustration of why I rate Richmond’s 2020 flag as their greatest achievement.

Unlike 2017 when they scraped into top 4 and got an exceedingly generous rub of the green with finals matchups and venues.

Or 2019 when they again scraped into the top 4, and luckily drew one of the weakest Grand Final opponents ever, who defeated Richmond's arch nemesis in a prelim nail biter despite less scoring shots and inside 50s.

Arch nemesis . Last 5 seasons Tigers lead 7-3 with 1 draw.

Our record against GWS in the last 5 seasons is 4-5.

So I don’t think the Tigers were desperately praying for a GWS win given in Round 19 we led Pies 61-7..... Pies kicked first goal too




Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[PJays]

I haven't fact checked your numbers here, but given your history I'm taking them with a grain of salt.....

Arch nemesis . Last 5 seasons Tigers lead 7-3 with 1 draw.

Except Collingwood held a pair of 40 point wins over Richmond in the previous 12 months, including a prelim.

3-2 over previous 5. Pretty even.

Our record against GWS in the last 5 seasons is 4-5.

Except the wins were on the MCG.....

GWS had won 3 games on the MCG in the previous 5 years. 3 wins, 9 losses

And a 13-9 record in 2019. And missing Coniglio and Deledio. And great form leading in- 2 wins with less scoring shots and inside 50s than their opponent.

What a tough Grand Final opponent they were

I'm sure you'd rather have played Collingwood. Good thing Richmond got the tough test with GWS

 

[Noidnadroj]

I haven't fact checked your numbers here, but given your history I'm taking them with a grain of salt.....

Except Collingwood held a pair of 40 point wins over Richmond in the previous 12 months, including a prelim.

3-2 over previous 5. Pretty even.



Except the wins were on the MCG.....

GWS had won 3 games on the MCG in the previous 5 years. 3 wins, 9 losses

And a 13-9 record in 2019. And missing Coniglio and Deledio. And great form leading in- 2 wins with less scoring shots and inside 50s than their opponent.

What a tough Grand Final opponent they were

I'm sure you'd rather have played Collingwood. Good thing Richmond got the tough test with GWS

Yep .... one of the wins was Round 2 the week after we lost Rance .... we lost to GWS by 49-points Round 3.

I think we’d recovered by Round 19....61-7, remember......we’d probably have preferred GWS, but I don’t think the Pies held any major concerns.

A nemesis is like when we played Geelong in the 2017 finals having not beaten them for a decade. Not a team for which you have a:

1-0 record
3-2 record
7-3 record

Depending on how far back you go ....

As for Missing Deledio . Now that’s a good one.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Fadge]

Yep .... one of the wins was Round 2 the week after we lost Rance .... we lost to GWS by 49-points Round 3.

I think we’d recovered by Round 19....61-7, remember......we’d probably have preferred GWS, but I don’t think the Pies held any major concerns.

A nemesis is like when we played Geelong in the 2017 finals having not beaten them for a decade. Not a team for which you have a:

1-0 record
3-2 record
7-3 record

Depending on how far back you go ....

Yes, and this is EXACTLY what you Richmond folk said leading into the 2018 Finals series, when you thought the Premiership was a foregone conclusion despite many suggesting Collingwood matched up well against Richmond given you only pulled away from us in the two home and away games because we were well down on rotations due to in game injuries.

Bottom line is, we weren't good enough to get there, but gee as a Collingwood supporter, Richmond hold no fears for us.

And maybe that's one of the key reasons as to why I don't rate Richmond as highly as some others on this thread do. There is certainly no aura about them for me like there was about the 3 other teams we are discussing in this thread.

 

[Noidnadroj]

Yes, and this is EXACTLY what you Richmond folk said leading into the 2018 Finals series, when you thought the Premiership was a foregone conclusion despite many suggesting Collingwood matched up well against Richmond given you only pulled away from us in the two home and away games because we were well down on rotations due to in game injuries.

Bottom line is, we weren't good enough to get there, but gee as a Collingwood supporter, Richmond hold no fears for us.

And maybe that's one of the key reasons as to why I don't rate Richmond as highly as some others on this thread do. There is certainly no aura about them for me like there was about the 3 other teams we are discussing in this thread.

Fair enough. Not sure there’s much in the last half of the season that points to us losing to the Pies, but we will obviously never know. I was certain after we won we’d be playing the Pies given GWS injuries, so I hadn’t even considered not playing them until the prelim was halfway through the 3rd qtr.

And 2018 wasn’t like 2019/20 when I felt we were at the top of our game at the business end - we were only just going late in the season of 2018.

Then in the PF Dusty was injured and Mason Cox morphed into Coleman/Carey.... It was the perfect storm. The Pies played a perfect game of footy with some outliers (Cox) that are truly unique.

I think there’s enough evidence over the last 4 seasons to show that prelim win/loss is an outlier for both the Pies and the Tigers.



Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Final Siren]

Yes, and this is EXACTLY what you Richmond folk said leading into the 2018 Finals series, when you thought the Premiership was a foregone conclusion despite many suggesting Collingwood matched up well against Richmond given you only pulled away from us in the two home and away games because we were well down on rotations due to in game injuries.

Bottom line is, we weren't good enough to get there, but gee as a Collingwood supporter, Richmond hold no fears for us.

And maybe that's one of the key reasons as to why I don't rate Richmond as highly as some others on this thread do. There is certainly no aura about them for me like there was about the 3 other teams we are discussing in this thread.

One of the weirdest things about 2018 for me was hearing the whole footballing world saying Richmond were unbeatable for the flag (because MCG), while actual Richmond supporters were nervous - then when we lost the prelim, all these other people decided it was actually Tiger fans who had been talking themselves up all along, and we lost because of our arrogance.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Yes, and this is EXACTLY what you Richmond folk said leading into the 2018 Finals series, when you thought the Premiership was a foregone conclusion despite many suggesting Collingwood matched up well against Richmond given you only pulled away from us in the two home and away games because we were well down on rotations due to in game injuries.

Bottom line is, we weren't good enough to get there, but gee as a Collingwood supporter, Richmond hold no fears for us.

And maybe that's one of the key reasons as to why I don't rate Richmond as highly as some others on this thread do. There is certainly no aura about them for me like there was about the 3 other teams we are discussing in this thread.

Lol, the Cats aura really bothered Hawks08, Saints10 and Pies10.

 

[Fadge]

One of the weirdest things about 2018 for me was hearing the whole footballing world saying Richmond were unbeatable for the flag (because MCG), while actual Richmond supporters were nervous - then when we lost the prelim, all these other people decided it was actually Tiger fans who had been talking themselves up all along, and we lost because of our arrogance.

What a load of codswallop.

If Richmond supporters were nervous in 2018, they certainly put on a brave front.

They were absolutely intolerable on Bigfooty for most of that season.

 

[Fadge]

Lol, the Cats aura really bothered Hawks08, Saints10 and Pies10.

All teams that would comfortably have this current Richmond team's measure.

 

[Final Siren]

What a load of codswallop.

If Richmond supporters were nervous in 2018, they certainly put on a brave front.

They were absolutely intolerable on Bigfooty for most of that season.

Well I'm sure you found yourselves in threads with some of the more outspoken ones. And I agree we've become a pretty intolerable fanbase since 2017. But for sure, almost all the talk of "unbeatable Richmond" in September 2018 was coming from outside - I mean, seriously, no fan group ever really thinks they're a lock for the flag - and the second we lost, everyone who'd been saying that suddenly pretended they'd never thought that and it had actually always been Richmond fans.

 

[Dr Tigris]

One of the weirdest things about 2018 for me was hearing the whole footballing world saying Richmond were unbeatable for the flag (because MCG), while actual Richmond supporters were nervous - then when we lost the prelim, all these other people decided it was actually Tiger fans who had been talking themselves up all along, and we lost because of our arrogance.

Yeah, I was worried about how we were losing momentum as we came into finals. Hawks game was a red herring there.

Although saying that the Pies first half was as good footy as I reckon I have ever seen. They would have smashed anyone in those 2 quarters. One of the things that interests me is why the Pies did it then, but not really since. Either everything went right or they have underperformed. Although 2018 GF was a coin toss really.