Greatest Dynasty of the 21st century - Lions vs Cats vs Hawks vs Tigers

[Strapping Young Lad]

Not sure if any teams have won a flag then lost two prelims and then won another flag.

If that ever happens then they must be considered to be better than a club that wins a threepeat, because rarer to happen equals harder to do, and we all know that failing twice only to win once more is much harder than winning consecutively.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

In addition, I worked out the following.

Out of 123 votes for Brisbane, only 23 votes for Brisbane are from Brisbane supporters, meaning a whopping 81.30% of votes for Brisbane are from neutrals!!

Out of 58 votes for Geelong, only 17 votes for Geelong are from Geelong supporters, meaning 70.69% of votes for Geelong are from neutrals.

Meanwhile, out of 95 votes for Hawthorn, 70 votes are from Hawthorn supporters, meaning only 26.32% of votes for Hawthorn are from neutrals.

That means the poll results so far are as follows, if you only count neutral votes..

Brisbane - 100 votes
Geelong - 41 votes
Hawthorn - 25 votes
Richmond - 2 votes

To be honest, I'm quite surprised at finding out the majority of votes for Geelong are from neutrals, while the majority of votes for Hawthorn are from Hawks supporters, because I always assumed neutrals rated Hawthorn higher than Geelong due to the three peat factor, along with remembering the 2008 grand final.

Brisbane are by far the highest rated by neutrals, which is no surprise at all due to Brisbane being an interstate side, hence neutrals rating them the highest due to the travel factor and playing grand finals at the MCG against Melbourne based teams. In fact, Brisbane have more votes from neutrals than all of Geelong, Hawthorn and Richmond combined!!

Richmond supporters seem to have had a reality check in 2021, and it's made them realise their era is the 4th greatest era this century, which is bookended by 13th and 12th place finishes, which is similar to Adelaide 1997-98, who's era is also bookended by 12th and 13th place finishes.

This thread mainly consists of Hawthorn supporters flying the flag for the Hawks, and neutrals flying the flag for the Lions and Cats. I mean, Fadge you have been flying the flag for Geelong more than anyone else in this thread, and you're a Pies supporter!!

Brisbane may be loved by neutrals, however Geelong are far from loved, in fact they're the 2nd most hated club behind Essendon who are the most hated, according to the "which club do you hate the most?" thread on this board. In fact, Geelong have twice the amount of votes as Hawthorn for the most hated club, so neutrals flying the flag for Geelong rather than Hawthorn can't be put down to Geelong being a club loved by neutrals, because Geelong are far from loved. Everyone hates Geelong and are sick of them hanging around the top 4 year in year, out, along with Chris Scott's constant whinging and disrespectful remarks towards other clubs.

12 1 1 13 is similar to 13 1 3 1 1 12?

The Tigers won 3 flags and a minor flag in a 4 year span. This fairly places them behind the other dynasties imo, who achieved more finals wins and had an extra year of high performance, but without wanting to disrespect Adelaide’s brilliant b2b Premierships there is a massive difference between dominating the competition for 2 years on one hand v 4 on the other.

2021 wasn’t a reality check for Richmond supporters. 2017-20 was a reality check for 17 opposition club supporters. Judging by your post you may need another reality check in 2022.

 

[Pessimistic]

Fair enough. But I doubt something you are now at least partially agreeing with is “massively flawed thinking."

too strong for bigfooty you think?

more that you went Andrew Bolt and took a concept with significant flaws then constructed a large amount of statistics and conclusions which looked very impressive….so long as you accept or ignore the base flaw.

 

[Pessimistic]

Not sure if any teams have won a flag then lost two prelims and then won another flag.

If that ever happens then they must be considered to be better than a club that wins a threepeat, because rarer to happen equals harder to do, and we all know that failing twice only to win once more is much harder than winning consecutively.

st Kildas sequence is the rarest of them all

 

[Meteoric Rise]

too strong for bigfooty you think?

Just too strong to represent your own position accurately.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

st Kildas sequence is the rarest of them all

Time to release a DVD me thinks!

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Not sure if any teams have won a flag then lost two prelims and then won another flag.

If that ever happens then they must be considered to be better than a club that wins a threepeat, because rarer to happen equals harder to do, and we all know that failing twice only to win once more is much harder than winning consecutively.

You are the one saying that 3 consecutive flags within a 5 year window is a superior and more difficult achievement to 3 non-consecutive flags within a 5 year window.

So it is for you to come up with the reasons why that is the case champ. So far you have plumped for the non-consecutive team not being "mentally strong" enough, the consecutive team having to deal with being “hunted," and the consecutive team having to “back it up.”

You got anything else?

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

You are the one saying that 3 consecutive flags within a 5 year window is a superior and more difficult achievement to 3 non-consecutive flags within a 5 year window.

So it is for you to come up with the reasons why that is the case champ. So far you have plumped for the non-consecutive team not being "mentally strong" enough, the consecutive team having to deal with being “hunted," and the consecutive team having to “back it up.”

You got anything else?

I’ve “plumped” for the very reason anyone with any semblance of common sense considers consecutive premierships or championships a huge achievement in a professional sport where equalization policies exist, and a single flag is considered “the pinnacle”.

But please continue, I just came back to read what the latest was in this thread, and it was great to see that your meandering confusion as to why consececutive flags mean more continues.

 

[Pessimistic]

Back to back and/or back to back to back is so generally lauded, especially by participants themselves, that posters haven’t even had to think of yet alone concocted arguments to support the notion.

it would be crazy but hawthorn approaching 2014 grand final saying ‘hang on, we could win the next two or we could lose win lose win and it would be a much rarer but more significant achievement’

 

[Trav 20]

You are the one saying that 3 consecutive flags within a 5 year window is a superior and more difficult achievement to 3 non-consecutive flags within a 5 year window.

So it is for you to come up with the reasons why that is the case champ. So far you have plumped for the non-consecutive team not being "mentally strong" enough, the consecutive team having to deal with being “hunted," and the consecutive team having to “back it up.”

You got anything else?

You do get bogged down in the rarity aspect.

The game has evolved so much it's largely irrelevant.

We've been an amateur sport, had zones, wealthy clubs had a leg up as to what they could pay players, Melbourne had an advantage in that they could offer memberships to the MCC in the 1950s to attract players, then equalisation, and we've had 12 clubs, 14 clubs, 16 clubs, 18 clubs.

There are so many evolving factors, yet all you do is get stuck on WLWLW and perceived rarities.

I appreciate much of your logic, but you're too bogged down in your ''betting brain''.

 

[Pessimistic]

It is fair to say that these ‘three flags loosely together’ seems to have happened more in the last two decades than many other similar periods, so historically it may not be as significant an achievement.

ironically the era is marked by ‘equalisation policy’

note I’m avoiding using the word ‘rarer’

 

[Meteoric Rise]

I’ve “plumped” for the very reason anyone with any semblance of common sense considers consecutive premierships or championships a huge achievement in a professional sport where equalization policies exist, and a single flag is considered “the pinnacle”.

But please continue, I just came back to read what the latest was in this thread, and it was great to see that your meandering confusion as to why consececutive flags mean more continues.

OK, so how exactly do equalisation policies make it easier to win flags spread over a 5 year window than within a 3 year window?

 

[Fadge]

The Tigers won 3 flags and a minor flag in a 4 year span. This fairly places them behind the other dynasties imo, who achieved more finals wins and had an extra year of high performance, but without wanting to disrespect Adelaide’s brilliant b2b Premierships there is a massive difference between dominating the competition for 2 years on one hand v 4 on the other.

Suggest there is a difference between 'winning the premiership' and 'dominating the competition'.

Adelaide 'won the premiership' in 1997/98.

Essendon 'dominated the competition' in 2000, as did Carlton in 1995.

Interestingly, the teams that came closest to 'dominating the competition' of the dynasty teams being discussed were:
Geelong in 2007
Geelong in 2008
Richmond in 2018
Edit: Hawthorn in 2013

 

[Fadge]

it would be crazy but hawthorn approaching 2014 grand final saying ‘hang on, we could win the next two or we could lose win lose win and it would be a much rarer but more significant achievement’

Of course they wouldn't.

But if they were told 'you're going to win two of the next three Grand Finals', do you reckon they'd give a toss if the premiership years were 2014/15, 2014/16 or 2015/16? Absolutely not. They key thing is they'd be playing in two more flags.

Same with Brisbane - if you told them they'd be playing in four consecutive Grand Finals between 2001 and 2004 and that they were going to win three flags, do you reckon they'd give a toss whether the flag years were consecutive or non-consecutive? No chance.

 

[MinerBoy]

Back to back and/or back to back to back is so generally lauded, especially by participants themselves, that posters haven’t even had to think of yet alone concocted arguments to support the notion.

it would be crazy but hawthorn approaching 2014 grand final saying ‘hang on, we could win the next two or we could lose win lose win and it would be a much rarer but more significant achievement’

I'm sure this was our plan until Buddy defected and then we just said "* that"

 

[MinerBoy]

Interestingly, the teams that came closest to 'dominating the competition' of the dynasty teams being discussed were:

Richmond in 2018

Hawthorn had a better H&A record in 2013 and 2011 (when we finished 3rd) than Tigers 2018. Not sure how Richmond came close to dominating. I guess comparative to weak opposition.... we did finish the H&A season 4th in 2018.

Yet I'd say our 2012/2014 were even better teams than our 2011/13 teams. 17/5 and massive % in 2014 with a whole raft of guns out for extended periods and Clarko missing 5 weeks too. The 5 losses doesn't suggest we dominated, but as the GF showed, when we were close to full strength we were basically untouchable.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

It is fair to say that these ‘three flags loosely together’ seems to have happened more in the last two decades than many other similar periods, so historically it may not be as significant an achievement.

ironically the era is marked by ‘equalisation policy’

note I’m avoiding using the word ‘rarer’

At least three flags in succession happened 4times between the early 1900’s and the the late 1950’s.

It then didn’t re-appear until the early 2000’s after 46 years without occurring.

Intriguing apart from those, the occurrences of the nearest related achievement, at least 3 flags spread over 4 seasons, DID NOT occur until Carlton 1979-81-82, and the Hawks had the two related sequences 86-88-89, and 88-89-91. It then disappeared until Richmond dusted the sequence off in 2017-190-20. However, Collingwood in 1927-30 and Melbourne 1956-57-59 were also examples of 3 flags spread over 4 seasons.

The Melbourne 5 flags in 6 seasons in the 50’s also contained multiple sequences of 3 flags spread over 5 seasons. The only other times this has occurred were Essendon 1946-49-50, Carlton 1968-70-72 and Geelong 2007-09-11.

But let’s now lay out the timeline of all occurrences of a club winning at least 3 flags within 5 seasons:

1906-08 Carlton

1927-30 Collingwood

1939-41 Melbourne

1946-49-50 Essendon

1955-56-57-59-60 Melbourne

1968-70-72 Carlton

1979-81-82 Carlton

1986-88-89 & 88-89-91 Hawthorn

2001-02-03 Brisbane

2007-09-11 Geelong

2013-15 Hawthorn

2017-19-20 Richmond.

So that has been 12 times over the 125 year history of the competition. Roughly once per decade on average. The only decade which did not contain a flag that was involved in one of these sequences was 1911-20.

1941-50, 1981-90, 2001-10 had at least one flag from 2 such sequences.

2011-20 is the only decade to have at least one discrete flag from 3 such sequences. Thus, I guess, we are discussing it now.

The last two decades do appear to have the highest frequency of 3 flags within a 5 year span.

But it has always happened roughly once per decade.

IMO these 3 within a 5 year span are all closely related and we can see there is a fairly regular pattern as to their frequency when you lump together all the instances of 3 consecutive flags with the instances of 3 flags spread over 4 and 5 seasons.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Suggest there is a difference between 'winning the premiership' and 'dominating the competition'.

Adelaide 'won the premiership' in 1997/98.

Essendon 'dominated the competition' in 2000, as did Carlton in 1995.

Interestingly, the teams that came closest to 'dominating the competition' of the dynasty teams being discussed were:
Geelong in 2007
Geelong in 2008
Richmond in 2018

I guess I differ in one respect here. I think a team who has A) qualified for finals, and B) dominated the Preliminary and Grand Finals has effectively dominated the competition.

But I concede that many teams win flags without dominating the whole season including the h & a season.

 

[Fadge]

Hawthorn had a better H&A record in 2013 and 2011 (when we finished 3rd) than Tigers 2018. Not sure how Richmond came close to dominating. I guess comparative to weak opposition.... we did finish the H&A season 4th in 2018.

Yet I'd say our 2012/2014 were even better teams than our 2011/13 teams. 17/5 and massive % in 2014 with a whole raft of guns out for extended periods and Clarko missing 5 weeks too. The 5 losses doesn't suggest we dominated, but as the GF showed, when we were close to full strength we were basically untouchable.

Yes, it is absolutely relative to the competition.

2011 you had two other teams finish ahead of you on the ladder, so that can't be considered 'dominating', but 2013 is a fair call given you were a game clear on top of the ladder (though Geelong had the same percentage).

 

[Back One Out]

Of 123 votes for Brisbane, only 23 votes are from Brisbane supporters...
A whopping 81% of votes for Brisbane are from neutrals!!

You call them "neutrals', but they aren't really that "neutral". At least half of them, maybe more, would be biased against 1,2 or 3 Victorian clubs. It's wholly expected that fans of the 14 other clubs would vote for the "inoffensive' Queensland team rather than admit Geelong, Hawthorn or Richmond was the best recent dynasty.

The Lions dynasty occurred roughly 20 years ago and they've been consistent losers since then. Missing the finals from 2006 to 2018... Many, many years spent in the cellar. They'd become "loveable losers" in many respects. A cinderella team for the so-called 'neutrals' to barrack for against Richmond and Geelong in recent finals series.

There aren't that many Lions fans on these boards. Certainly not as many fans as Richmond, Hawthorn and Geelong. Not as many annoying fans trolling opposition clubs. Not as many smug, boastful annoying fans crowing after any finals successes in the past 10 years.

Who cares about Brisbane? Tigers, Hawks, Cats on the other hand... grrrr!!!

There are plenty of polls on here for the "most hated team". Brisbane are usually in the last place, or close to it. Geelong somewhere in the middle (and rising), with Hawthorn and Richmond up towards the top, a smidge behind Collingwood and Essendon.

Part of being a "true" Victorian football fan (Coll, Carl, Ess, Rich, Haw, Geel, Melb, St K, WB, NM) is to barrack for the interstate team vs one of the hated Victorian rivals. You see it in every match thread on here with the so-called "neutrals" belly-aching about umpires even worse than the actual fans of the losing team.

Let's poll the "neutral" Fremantle fans about who they think is a better ruckman: Nick Naitanui or Max Gawn ?? No bias... LOL

 

[MinerBoy]

Yes, it is absolutely relative to the competition.

2011 you had two other teams finish ahead of you on the ladder, so that can't be considered 'dominating', but 2013 is a fair call given you were a game clear on top of the ladder (though Geelong had the same percentage).

Yeah we absolutely didn't dominate 2011. Wasn't suggesting we were.

Was more a case of saying I don't really consider an 18-4 season dominating, even if 2nd was 2 wins behind.

I'd consider a dominant H&A season like Geelong 2008 or Essendon 2000.... beyond that anything 20-2, 19-3 (with fairly insane %).

A game or two clear shows a side to be the best I agree (and clearly) but doesn't confirm for me they were a dominant team if they are still dropping a reasonable amount of games themselves.

I take your point though, there's dominating and there's being dominant in comparison.........

 

[Goggin Our Best]

Richmond 2017-20 were similar to Adelaide 1997-98 in all honesty. Both sides struck gold while the iron was hot and got the absolute most out of their windows, and it wouldn't have been possible if not for amazing grand finals from superstars such as Martin, McLeod and Jarman!

Shane Ellen kicking 5 goals in a grand final and Jack Graham kicking 3 goals in a grand final were also amazing efforts, and shouldn't be overlooked when discussing the achievements of Richmond 2017-20 and Adelaide 1997-98 either.

In all fairness - that is absolute utter rubbish

Adelaide 2 flags - both years they had a paltry 13-9 records

98 - should be ruled null and void - that stupid finals system - win a pisss poor 13 games - finish 5th - Dees beat them by 10 goals plus in the 1st final - should have been eliminated their and then - but get a 2nd chance - then win 3 games on the trot - and they are the Champions - what an absolute joke

97 - Cats finish 2nd - lose the 1st final narrowly ( played NM who finished 7th - Carey kicks 7 in atrocious conditions - just Geel luck ) and then the Cats get shunted off to Football Park - to play a team who won 13 h/a games

To compare the Crows achievements with the Tigers ( who were a shock PF massive upset loss ) against winning 4 flags in a row is just plain ridiculous

Looking at both Haw and Rich - from a Geel supporter point of view -those 2 teams have got the most friction with Geel - so there is no love from me with either of them - but i still try to look at it fairly - and stick to the facts

Now alot of Haw supporters are crowing about 2013 - however when Geel beat Haw 11 times in a row - and alot of those were very tight win - however late in the 2013 season - Geel beat Haw - and it was probably one of the worst losses by Haw in that streak of 11 - for most part of the game they were totally outplayed - they did come with a late rally - but that was about it . They then came from 20pts behind in the 13PF to get up and win - i wouldnt call that actually dominating the comp

Then again sticking to the actual facts - you look at how Rich and Haw would match up . Well when the Hawks won the 3 peat - the Tigers had an average teams - there was still holes galore in it - they didnt have Prestia - Lynch or Bolton . Cotchin was still doing those dinky stupid 20 metre chippy kicks - he hadnt arrived as a top class midfielder at that point . Martin hadnt elevated his game back then to where it is today

However on 2-3 occasions ( if it was just once - you could call it a fluke and an upset etc ) - the Tigers beat that 3 peat Haw team - and they didnt win narrowly - they won by about 4 goals - theye were comfortable wins

So logic would suggest - that when the Tigers got their flag winning teams - they would fancy their chances against those 3 peat Haw teams

They are the facts - the problem with Big Footy - there is alot of bitterness - jealousy - hatred of other teams - and that distorts alot of their posts

 

[Noidnadroj]

As a neutral with no skin in this game, I did a quick assessment of the Richmond votes, and out of 28 votes for Richmond, 26 votes are from Richmond supporters! That means a measly 7.15% of the votes for Richmond came from neutrals.

Richmond 2017-20 were similar to Adelaide 1997-98 in all honesty. Both sides struck gold while the iron was hot and got the absolute most out of their windows, and it wouldn't have been possible if not for amazing grand finals from superstars such as Martin, McLeod and Jarman!

Shane Ellen kicking 5 goals in a grand final and Jack Graham kicking 3 goals in a grand final were also amazing efforts, and shouldn't be overlooked when discussing the achievements of Richmond 2017-20 and Adelaide 1997-98 either.

Richmond 2017 flag was on the back of no injuries and good fortune.

Richmond got loads of injuries in 2019 including Alex Rance in Round 1, so winning that was due to the MCG factor and too many home games.

Then 2020 was won away from the MCG, and Richmond had lots of injuries in the first half of that year as well, so I can’t quite remember the reason for Richmond winning that one?

Then in between those flags in 2018 Richmond finished 2-games clear on top of the ladder.

So yes, the parallels to Adelaide who won flags from 4th and 5th and did nothing either side of 1997 / 98 are uncanny….


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[Noidnadroj]

In addition, I worked out the following.

Out of 123 votes for Brisbane, only 23 votes for Brisbane are from Brisbane supporters, meaning a whopping 81.30% of votes for Brisbane are from neutrals!!

Out of 58 votes for Geelong, only 17 votes for Geelong are from Geelong supporters, meaning 70.69% of votes for Geelong are from neutrals.

Meanwhile, out of 95 votes for Hawthorn, 70 votes are from Hawthorn supporters, meaning only 26.32% of votes for Hawthorn are from neutrals.

That means the poll results so far are as follows, if you only count neutral votes..

Brisbane - 100 votes
Geelong - 41 votes
Hawthorn - 25 votes
Richmond - 2 votes

To be honest, I'm quite surprised at finding out the majority of votes for Geelong are from neutrals, while the majority of votes for Hawthorn are from Hawks supporters, because I always assumed neutrals rated Hawthorn higher than Geelong due to the three peat factor, along with remembering the 2008 grand final.

Brisbane are by far the highest rated by neutrals, which is no surprise at all due to Brisbane being an interstate side, hence neutrals rating them the highest due to the travel factor and playing grand finals at the MCG against Melbourne based teams. In fact, Brisbane have more votes from neutrals than all of Geelong, Hawthorn and Richmond combined!!

Richmond supporters seem to have had a reality check in 2021, and it's made them realise their era is the 4th greatest era this century, which is bookended by 13th and 12th place finishes, which is similar to Adelaide 1997-98, who's era is also bookended by 12th and 13th place finishes.

This thread mainly consists of Hawthorn supporters flying the flag for the Hawks, and neutrals flying the flag for the Lions and Cats. I mean, Fadge you have been flying the flag for Geelong more than anyone else in this thread, and you're a Pies supporter!!

Brisbane may be loved by neutrals, however Geelong are far from loved, in fact they're the 2nd most hated club behind Essendon who are the most hated, according to the "which club do you hate the most?" thread on this board. In fact, Geelong have twice the amount of votes as Hawthorn for the most hated club, so neutrals flying the flag for Geelong rather than Hawthorn can't be put down to Geelong being a club loved by neutrals, because Geelong are far from loved. Everyone hates Geelong and are sick of them hanging around the top 4 year in year, out, along with Chris Scott's constant whinging and disrespectful remarks towards other clubs.

Serious question - where does the Richmond dynasty sit if they win a 4th in 2022 or 2023?


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[Noidnadroj]

OK, so how exactly do equalisation policies make it harder to win flags spread over a 5 year window than within a 3 year window?

The more difficult it is to win something, the more amazing doing it consecutively becomes. So in the ‘old’ days each season maybe 3-4 x teams were realistic flag chances going into each season. Now it’s 9-10. So consecutive victories hold more weight in an equalized competition.

It’s why Rod Laver’s 2 x Grand Slams should not be considered in the same ballpark should a player achieve the same thing in 2022. And why the Pies 4-peat from 1927-30 is almost impossible to replicate in an equalized league.

*I am not suggesting it’s easier than 3 in 5-years or 4 in 6-years etc… as I’m not re-starting that debate …. just that achieving something consecutively is held in far greater esteem the harder it is to do.


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