Opinion Ground zero - what do we have?

fronkalicious

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We must offered Kelly a big contract but keep it in line with Bont. Both are good mates and being batman and robin would be great for us.

Additions from OPs side in Caps.

FB: Wood Cordy Naughton
HB: Richards ADAMS Young
C: Macrae Bonti JJ
HF: McLean Schache DANIEL
FF: DALE Boyd Hunter
R: English KELLY Libba
IC: WALLIS, WEST, TRENGROVE, XXXX

Need to play a strange structure, with Schache & Boyd playing up on the wings. Dale deep forward. McLean, Daniel play wing and the wings play on ball/d50 support.

FA who I hope get a decent contract offer (offer them what would be band 3 FA level ($450K) but let them leave when they get offered Band 2 or better):

Dahlhaus - should get offered $600k+ by North.
Roughead -should get offered $600k+ by whoever misses on Lynch.

Both of those contracts would be Band 2, let's hope they get offered $750k and get us Band 1.

XXXX will need to be a top 5 pick this year. There are some awesome mids/forwards available.
That team still completely lacks forwards, speed and skill.

Daniel, hunter, dale and Mclean just aren’t dangerous enough, nor quick enough to apply elite forward pressure.
 

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doggies ftw

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We obviously need speed and skill but theres literally none waiting in the wings to come in and its not exactly easy to find. I think we need to base ourselves around a quality spine now. Just get games into Boyd, Schache, English and Naughton/Cordy/Young (until Adams is back). This list is doing no damage this year for sure, get games into them IMO.
 

TedDougChris

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We obviously need speed and skill but theres literally none waiting in the wings to come in and its not exactly easy to find. I think we need to base ourselves around a quality spine now. Just get games into Boyd, Schache, English and Naughton/Cordy/Young (until Adams is back). This list is doing no damage this year for sure, get games into them IMO.
The issue is none of both. Or close to it. If you had a team of skill, just try to control the tempo and use precision (like Hawks). If you had manic speed, use that to create pressure (like us and Tigers).

We have....... ummmmm..... Many ruck/forwards... ???
 

LittleG

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That team still completely lacks forwards, speed and skill.

Daniel, hunter, dale and Mclean just aren’t dangerous enough, nor quick enough to apply elite forward pressure.
I think Schache and Boyd will provide 2 of the forwards we need. Both need to be played and persisted with at AFL level. We also need a small.

Agree they aren't fast enough BUT it's who we have. I like their skills and would rather keep them.

Small forwards with pace are available every year third round onwards. I would argue we only need 1 plus an early draftee from this draft. This year we can get a midfielder with pace and skills, who is also a contested midfielder.

It's a great year to be tanking, sorry I meant to say 'developing your list'. The top 10 look awesome and I would love 2 of them.

Personally, not a huge fan of West due to wanting some major pace injection into the team But would still take him in the mid second round where the bid should come.
 

ringa5

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Simple pschology really.
Rather than persevere with the ones that will never make it.(castoffs and list cloggers)
Nurture the ones that can.And coach them properly.Boyd , Schache and English for starters.
 

Freshwater

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We desperately need either an assistant coach who has head coached at AFL level and/or an experienced footy manager like Neil Balme. Both would be better. Richmond got both last year, Balme and Leppich plus a very credentialed assistant in Blake Caracella. Beverage is the boss but needs to be accountable as well.
Why can’t we think outside the sheep industry of AFL and hire one mid season.
 

StringyDog

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Roughead -should get offered $600k+ by whoever misses on Lynch.

Both of those contracts would be Band 2, let's hope they get offered $750k and get us Band 1.
Lol can i have some of what you are smoking Roughead would be lucky to get a 400k contract offered to him elsewhere, he is simply not a very good player who is always injured, carrying an injury or hunching over from a potential injury in a contest. Just another who had a good month at right time in 2016, if he stays with dogs will be playing vfl for a lot of next contract.
 

fronkalicious

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What does that say about our recently departed list manager and head of recruitment?
I think it wreaks of dalrymple, beveridge and McCartney not being on the same page DR. We know all 3 can do their jobs, but there’s a complete disconnect between what all 3 have been trying to do.

Beveridge and dalrymple didn’t want Schache. McCartney did. That’s just one example.

I also think we’ve collectively misread where the game is going. We were ahead of the curve with our pressure, zone and hand balling game, and now we’re WAY WAY WAY behind it in the speed, power and skill era.
 

_Mike_

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Ground Zero - Lets do something really radical - put Gia back as Forward Coach, Rohan Smith back as Defence Coach and Stephen King back as Stoppage Coach

Ashley Hanson can be promoted to Barista and Head Table Cleaner at Woofers Cafe

Since the year is shot to bits anyway we may as well do some other other radical things like playing Boyd and Schache at Full Forward and Centre Half Forward and some young crumbers like Fergus Greene down with them

If Bevo still feels like experimentation how about also moving the opening Goal Kicker of our 2016 Premiership Zaine Cordy back down there as well, and Napoleon could give Jack Redpath a run behind the ball at Centre Half Back since we’ve got nothing to lose at the moment anyway

Tim English has shown enough to be given game time in the Ruck
The first thing that’s made sense today. Welcome back to the board


As for Cordy, he isn’t a defender. He’s a defensive forward type player.
 

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BRWB

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I think it wreaks of dalrymple, beveridge and McCartney not being on the same page DR. We know all 3 can do their jobs, but there’s a complete disconnect between what all 3 have been trying to do.

Beveridge and dalrymple didn’t want Schache. McCartney did. That’s just one example.

I also think we’ve collectively misread where the game is going. We were ahead of the curve with our pressure, zone and hand balling game, and now we’re WAY WAY WAY behind it in the speed, power and skill era.
Be interested to hear of other egs.

Schache recruitment always seemed a face saving exercise to excuse JMac's abject negotiation skills to me. Red flags all over Schache imo.

Jmac has continually tried to trade away picks for ordinary players rather than just let Dal do his thing. Happy he is at GWS, but sad Dal is at Syd.
 
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The Inbetweener

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Be interested to hear of other egs.

Schache recruitment always seemed a face saving exercise to excuse JMac's abject negotiation skills to me. Red flags all over Schache imo.

Jmac has continually tried to trade away picks for ordinary players rather than just let Dal do his thing. Happy he is at GWS, but sad Dal is at Syd.
Agree

Always seemed strange to me that we recruited Trengove and Crozier, a key defender and running half back, and then a few weeks later drafted Naughton and Richards, a key defender and running half back
 
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100action

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Only players that are safe: Bont, Macrae, Mclean, Naughton + most recent batch of draftees. (maybe English as well)

The rest are problematic, I am not sure of their ability to contribute to our next premiership.
 

webbo

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I think it wreaks of dalrymple, beveridge and McCartney not being on the same page DR. We know all 3 can do their jobs, but there’s a complete disconnect between what all 3 have been trying to do.

Beveridge and dalrymple didn’t want Schache. McCartney did. That’s just one example.

I also think we’ve collectively misread where the game is going. We were ahead of the curve with our pressure, zone and hand balling game, and now we’re WAY WAY WAY behind it in the speed, power and skill era.
Do you think Richmond had a premiership that was built on speed, power and skill? Seemed as though they did similar things to us with their small forward pressure game and locking the ball in the forward fifty. They have a few clear experienced superstars (something we lack) and no doubt have the better list at the moment, but I don't think last years premiers built their game on speed and skill.

That might be more GWS' go, so we will see how they end the season. Will be interesting to note if their clearly talented players can create the same intensity and pressure that us and richmond managed to create, to win the ultimate prize. I think the most disappointing thing so far this season has been a noted lack of intensity from some players. Also our foot skills have been absolutely killing us, especially those turnovers in the back half. What do we do about that? I'm stuck.
 

TMoney22

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If you lack foot skills you need speed to get separation and not kick while under as much pressure.
If you lack speed you need skills to kick while under pressure.

That's the simple answer to today's pressure tactics.

We are slow and have terrible foot skills. Changing that can't happen overnight, it will take 2 or 3 years minimum.

Devon Smith and Impey would have started it last year if we coughed up.
 

Bazza Bulldog

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OP title - Ground zero - what do we have?

What we don't have is a pulse. Who are our big time 'gamers'? Players who love the contest, bash, crash, get back up and go again ...
4 weeks ago I would have said we have - Libba, Clay, Moz, Picko, Dahl (maybe). Who provided the pulse in the first 2 weeks?
 

Snake Livermore

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I don't think it is ground zero. Due to the age profile of our list even if we do a mini rebuild we are already a couple of years in.

But it does seem like that is what Bevo is going for. He must think it's our fastest way to another flag. If so, best case we are contending again in 2020. Here we go again!
 

Bazza Bulldog

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So many holes to fill. Where to start?

Taking a look at the bones of what our next finals team might look like:

FB: Wood Cordy Naughton
HB: Richards. Young
C: Hunter Macrae JJ
HF: Mclean Schache
FF:
R: English Bonti Libba
IC/fringe: Dunkley, Daniel, Boyd, Crozier.

Desperately need goal-kickers (any size). Desperately need speed. Desperately need kicking skills.

How much has Dahlhaus got left in the tank?? He needs to play at such a high intensity to impact games. Has he run out of wheels?? What compensation could we get for him?

Roughead helped deliver a flag, but he’s of no use to us IMO. Particularly with us being so invested in trengove.

Clay smith, Dickson, roarke smith and Adams can’t get on the park. Great saying in the NBA, “availability is the best ability”.

Webb, honeychurch, campbell, Collins, gowers, Lynch and Roberts aren’t AFL standard.

Picken and Morris can’t give us what we need any more.

Wallis probably hangs on if Dahlhaus goes, otherwise I’d be reticent to re-sign him.

The exciting thing is we have amassed some wonderful young talent whilst winning a flag.

The rebuild can happen quickly if our list management, recruitment and coach get on the same page.

A top 5 pick, some FA compensation and Rhylee West is a nice platform. But we need to get a lot of things right to get back into finals contention in the coming years.
What are your thoughts on Dale & Williams Fronk? Depth in our next competitive side? Williams has been better than most (not hard) so far this year. I'm still holding a small glimmer of hope for Webb as well. He at least can kick the ball (well the 3 kicks he had in the 1st were good).
 

Mattdougie

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I don't think it is ground zero. Due to the age profile of our list even if we do a mini rebuild we are already a couple of years in.

But it does seem like that is what Bevo is going for. He must think it's our fastest way to another flag. If so, best case we are contending again in 2020. Here we go again!
Age profile means nothing if the kids aren’t good Enough
 

Guido

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Beveridge and dalrymple didn’t want Schache. McCartney did. That’s just one example.
I could understand this if it was the other way around (coach wanted a certain player but was overruled by the list manager due to trade cost or salary), but if true, the above situation seems borderline insane. Regardless of the fact that of whether or not it's likely to be a poor long term decision.

Coach: "List is looking too top heavy already, I don't want a key forward, especially one with question marks on his intensity and hunger."

List manager: "Well you're getting one!"

Seriously, is this as absurd as it appears? Only other time I can think of anything similar was Buckley saying there was a "mix up" in their footy department (during the Grubby Allan saga) when they recruited Mayne.

Speaks to needing a Neil Balme type who oversees the whole damn thing with decades of experience and some serious authority + the respect of everyone below him.

For anyone in the know, was Liam Ryan on Dalrymple's radar? For a draft that was meant to be weak and "only 15 deep", I'm seeing some serious talent from the 20s, including Geelong's Kelly today. If that's indicative of a weak draft that our list manager deemed ok to throw picks in the second round around like confetti, I don't want to know what our pick 20-25 could have gotten this year.
 

Mattdougie

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Our list is close to the worst on the league

We don’t have a decent KP On the list at all.

Adams breaks every year
Fletcher is well Fletcher
Cordy isn’t a back mans a$$
Trengrove will be ruined by being moved every week
Boyd and Schache sent good enough
The rest are kids

Our ruck division is made up of a kid and 4 part timers who aren’t good enough. With the 3rd man up rule gone a ruck is essential.

We don’t have a single forward we can rely on NOT ONE.

We have a midfield that relies on Bont and Libba. McRae is an outside player in a good team.

Our kids are just not very good and our depth is sh!te.

I’ve said this for 12 months someone tel me why I’m wrong?

Add the worst coaching panel in the league to the worst list and you get what we are now
 

Doggy

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Our list is close to the worst on the league

We don’t have a decent KP On the list at all.

Adams breaks every year
Fletcher is well Fletcher
Cordy isn’t a back mans a$$
Trengrove will be ruined by being moved every week
Boyd and Schache sent good enough
The rest are kids

Our ruck division is made up of a kid and 4 part timers who aren’t good enough. With the 3rd man up rule gone a ruck is essential.

We don’t have a single forward we can rely on NOT ONE.

We have a midfield that relies on Bont and Libba. McRae is an outside player in a good team.

Our kids are just not very good and our depth is sh!te.

I’ve said this for 12 months someone tel me why I’m wrong?

Add the worst coaching panel in the league to the worst list and you get what we are now
You pretty much said alot of this in 2016 as well
 

Mattdougie

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You pretty much said alot of this in 2016 as well
Half of it and it was true then

The difference was Bev got the players to believe they were better than they are and they believed in him.

Now they know they aren’t and the trust is gone. They no longer play for him
 

Dry Rot

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I could understand this if it was the other way around (coach wanted a certain player but was overruled by the list manager due to trade cost or salary), but if true, the above situation seems borderline insane. Regardless of the fact that of whether or not it's likely to be a poor long term decision.

Coach: "List is looking too top heavy already, I don't want a key forward, especially one with question marks on his intensity and hunger."

List manager: "Well you're getting one!"

Seriously, is this as absurd as it appears? Only other time I can think of anything similar was Buckley saying there was a "mix up" in their footy department (during the Grubby Allan saga) when they recruited Mayne.
It's actually much worse than that.

It's everything you said, plus our gun recruitment guy who would have studied Schache for some time before he was drafted and therefore may just know what he is talking about, said NO.

Utter shambles, and we have lost our second round pick this year when we will finish in the bottom 4, if not last.
 

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