Strategy Gut the Defence

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mike123

mike123

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Sep 13, 2013
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Our defence has been one of our few strengths in recent years but it’s time to stop relying on it anymore. It’s not working and we’re not winning games.

Should we gut our defence and spread the talent elsewhere and allow some of our draftees to develop at half back?

First move is Crisp to the middle permanently. It’s already half happened but I’d move him to full time mid.

Next is Maynard to the midfield. He’ll add more grunt and defensive stability to the middle whilst not being bad the other way, plus his brain fades are starting to get costly down back again. I’m happy for Quaynor to play on the opposition best small forwards this year, I know it’s not the best use of his strengths but we’re not challenging this year so I’m prepared to concede goals in order to add another string to his bow and improve his defensive ability. If it get ugly I’d move Greenwood down back as a last resort.

I’d bring in Reef and Henry down back to replace the run of Quaynor and Crisp. I think they’ll have any easy time down back finding the ball and getting their confidence up then up forward being on the end of our delivery and also may end up giving our ball movement the much needed spark it needs.

I’d also like Moore up forward. I’ve always thought a good key forward is more valuable than a good key defender. Moore’s a wonderful interceptor and but his ability to lock down on key forwards is lacking. I’d like Keane to develop in his place down back.

Howe and Roughead would still be down back to give us experience so I don’t think it will be completely hung out to dry either.

What my best 22 would look like with the proposed changes

B: Jeremy Howe ~ Jordan Roughead ~ Isaac Quaynor
HB: Reef McInnes ~ Mark Keane ~ Oliver Henry

M: Josh Daicos ~ Brayden Maynard ~ Scott Pendlebury
R: Brodie Grundy ~ Taylor Adams ~ Jack Crisp

HF: Steele Sidebottom ~ Brodie Mihocek ~ Jordan De Goey
F: Mason Cox ~ Darcy Moore ~ Jamie Elliott

I/C: Finlay Macrae (Inside Mid) ~ Trent Bianco (Outside Mid) ~ John Noble (Pressure forward) ~ Nathan Murphy (defender)

Edit: Thought of the bench
 
Last edited:
mike123 said:
Our defence has been one of our few strengths in recent years but it’s time to stop relying on it anymore. It’s not working and we’re not winning games.

Should we gut our defence and spread the talent elsewhere and allow some of our draftees to develop at half back?

First move is Crisp to the middle permanently. It’s already half happened but I’d move him to full time mid.

Next is Maynard to the midfield. He’ll add more grunt and defensive stability to the middle whilst not being bad the other way, plus his brain fades are starting to get costly down back again. I’m happy for Quaynor to play on the opposition best small forwards this year, I know it’s not the best use of his strengths but we’re not challenging this year so I’m prepared to concede goals in order to add another string to his bow and improve his defensive ability. If it get ugly I’d move Greenwood down back as a last resort.

I’d bring in Reef and Henry down back to replace the run of Quaynor and Crisp. I think they’ll have any easy time down back finding the ball and getting their confidence up then up forward being on the end of our delivery and also may end up giving our ball movement the much needed spark it needs.

I’d also like Moore up forward. I’ve always thought a good key forward is more valuable than a good key defender. Moore’s a wonderful interceptor and but his ability to lock down on key forwards is lacking. I’d like Keane to develop in his place down back.

Howe and Roughead would still be down back to give us experience so I don’t think it will be completely hung out to dry either.

What my best 18 would look like with the proposed changes

B: Jeremy Howe ~ Jordan Roughead ~ Isaac Quaynor
HB: Reef McInnes ~ Mark Keane ~ Oliver Henry

M: Josh Daicos ~ Brayden Maynard ~ Scott Pendlebury
R: Brodie Grundy ~ Taylor Adams ~ Jack Crisp

HF: Steele Sidebottom ~ Brodie Mihocek ~ Jordan De Goey
F: Mason Cox ~ Darcy Moore ~ Jamie Elliott
Click to expand...
I think back half of the year some of these ideas have merit.
Unsure re Moore. Someone's going to need to stand up pretty quickly there.
Maynard and Crisp, agree.
 
The Plowking said:
I think back half of the year some of these ideas have merit.
Unsure re Moore. Someone's going to need to stand up pretty quickly there.
Maynard and Crisp, agree.
Click to expand...
I think with Moore if we don’t move up forward then we should atleast bring in Keane or another key defender to allow Moore to play as the third tall. That way he doesn’t have to occupy a key forward and can just focus on intercepting.
 

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mike123 said:
Our defence has been one of our few strengths in recent years but it’s time to stop relying on it anymore. It’s not working and we’re not winning games.

Should we gut our defence and spread the talent elsewhere and allow some of our draftees to develop at half back?

First move is Crisp to the middle permanently. It’s already half happened but I’d move him to full time mid.

Next is Maynard to the midfield. He’ll add more grunt and defensive stability to the middle whilst not being bad the other way, plus his brain fades are starting to get costly down back again. I’m happy for Quaynor to play on the opposition best small forwards this year, I know it’s not the best use of his strengths but we’re not challenging this year so I’m prepared to concede goals in order to add another string to his bow and improve his defensive ability. If it get ugly I’d move Greenwood down back as a last resort.

I’d bring in Reef and Henry down back to replace the run of Quaynor and Crisp. I think they’ll have any easy time down back finding the ball and getting their confidence up then up forward being on the end of our delivery and also may end up giving our ball movement the much needed spark it needs.

I’d also like Moore up forward. I’ve always thought a good key forward is more valuable than a good key defender. Moore’s a wonderful interceptor and but his ability to lock down on key forwards is lacking. I’d like Keane to develop in his place down back.

Howe and Roughead would still be down back to give us experience so I don’t think it will be completely hung out to dry either.

What my best 18 would look like with the proposed changes

B: Jeremy Howe ~ Jordan Roughead ~ Isaac Quaynor
HB: Reef McInnes ~ Mark Keane ~ Oliver Henry

M: Josh Daicos ~ Brayden Maynard ~ Scott Pendlebury
R: Brodie Grundy ~ Taylor Adams ~ Jack Crisp

HF: Steele Sidebottom ~ Brodie Mihocek ~ Jordan De Goey
F: Mason Cox ~ Darcy Moore ~ Jamie Elliott
Click to expand...

Rather gut the midfield as it's our weak point.
 
mike123 said:
I think with Moore if we don’t move up forward then we should atleast bring in Keane or another key defender to allow Moore to play as the third tall. That way he doesn’t have to occupy a key forward and can just focus on intercepting.
Click to expand...
I certainly agree his current role is somewhat of a waste of an immense talent
 
mike123 said:
Our defence has been one of our few strengths in recent years but it’s time to stop relying on it anymore. It’s not working and we’re not winning games.

Should we gut our defence and spread the talent elsewhere and allow some of our draftees to develop at half back?

First move is Crisp to the middle permanently. It’s already half happened but I’d move him to full time mid.

Next is Maynard to the midfield. He’ll add more grunt and defensive stability to the middle whilst not being bad the other way, plus his brain fades are starting to get costly down back again. I’m happy for Quaynor to play on the opposition best small forwards this year, I know it’s not the best use of his strengths but we’re not challenging this year so I’m prepared to concede goals in order to add another string to his bow and improve his defensive ability. If it get ugly I’d move Greenwood down back as a last resort.

I’d bring in Reef and Henry down back to replace the run of Quaynor and Crisp. I think they’ll have any easy time down back finding the ball and getting their confidence up then up forward being on the end of our delivery and also may end up giving our ball movement the much needed spark it needs.

I’d also like Moore up forward. I’ve always thought a good key forward is more valuable than a good key defender. Moore’s a wonderful interceptor and but his ability to lock down on key forwards is lacking. I’d like Keane to develop in his place down back.

Howe and Roughead would still be down back to give us experience so I don’t think it will be completely hung out to dry either.

What my best 18 would look like with the proposed changes

B: Jeremy Howe ~ Jordan Roughead ~ Isaac Quaynor
HB: Reef McInnes ~ Mark Keane ~ Oliver Henry

M: Josh Daicos ~ Brayden Maynard ~ Scott Pendlebury
R: Brodie Grundy ~ Taylor Adams ~ Jack Crisp

HF: Steele Sidebottom ~ Brodie Mihocek ~ Jordan De Goey
F: Mason Cox ~ Darcy Moore ~ Jamie Elliott
Click to expand...

Good idea.. I'd tweak your side here and there.. but not everywhere and that re.. I'd start with IQ on a wing.. and Maynard to stay down back.
 
mike123 said:
Our defence has been one of our few strengths in recent years but it’s time to stop relying on it anymore. It’s not working and we’re not winning games.

Should we gut our defence and spread the talent elsewhere and allow some of our draftees to develop at half back?

First move is Crisp to the middle permanently. It’s already half happened but I’d move him to full time mid.

Next is Maynard to the midfield. He’ll add more grunt and defensive stability to the middle whilst not being bad the other way, plus his brain fades are starting to get costly down back again. I’m happy for Quaynor to play on the opposition best small forwards this year, I know it’s not the best use of his strengths but we’re not challenging this year so I’m prepared to concede goals in order to add another string to his bow and improve his defensive ability. If it get ugly I’d move Greenwood down back as a last resort.

I’d bring in Reef and Henry down back to replace the run of Quaynor and Crisp. I think they’ll have any easy time down back finding the ball and getting their confidence up then up forward being on the end of our delivery and also may end up giving our ball movement the much needed spark it needs.

I’d also like Moore up forward. I’ve always thought a good key forward is more valuable than a good key defender. Moore’s a wonderful interceptor and but his ability to lock down on key forwards is lacking. I’d like Keane to develop in his place down back.

Howe and Roughead would still be down back to give us experience so I don’t think it will be completely hung out to dry either.

What my best 22 would look like with the proposed changes

B: Jeremy Howe ~ Jordan Roughead ~ Isaac Quaynor
HB: Reef McInnes ~ Mark Keane ~ Oliver Henry

M: Josh Daicos ~ Brayden Maynard ~ Scott Pendlebury
R: Brodie Grundy ~ Taylor Adams ~ Jack Crisp

HF: Steele Sidebottom ~ Brodie Mihocek ~ Jordan De Goey
F: Mason Cox ~ Darcy Moore ~ Jamie Elliott
I/C: Finlay Macrae (Inside Mid) ~ Trent Bianco (Outside Mid) ~ John Noble (Pressure forward) ~ Nathan Murphy (defender)

Edit: Thought of the bench
Click to expand...
Totally agree, I didn’t even read your full post...I get the logic with the backline structured as is, good intercepting, rebound and kicking is pivotal in setting you up for attack. It’s what propelled us in 2018. The strategy was clear when we got rid of all our poor kicks (Williams and co) out of the backline.

Given what we’re doing atm isn’t working, I’d say give it a go. Maynard on ball, IQ on a wing and I’d throw Howe forward. Moore stays back on account of his injury history.
 
mike123 said:
Our defence has been one of our few strengths in recent years but it’s time to stop relying on it anymore. It’s not working and we’re not winning games.

Should we gut our defence and spread the talent elsewhere and allow some of our draftees to develop at half back?

First move is Crisp to the middle permanently. It’s already half happened but I’d move him to full time mid.

Next is Maynard to the midfield. He’ll add more grunt and defensive stability to the middle whilst not being bad the other way, plus his brain fades are starting to get costly down back again. I’m happy for Quaynor to play on the opposition best small forwards this year, I know it’s not the best use of his strengths but we’re not challenging this year so I’m prepared to concede goals in order to add another string to his bow and improve his defensive ability. If it get ugly I’d move Greenwood down back as a last resort.

I’d bring in Reef and Henry down back to replace the run of Quaynor and Crisp. I think they’ll have any easy time down back finding the ball and getting their confidence up then up forward being on the end of our delivery and also may end up giving our ball movement the much needed spark it needs.

I’d also like Moore up forward. I’ve always thought a good key forward is more valuable than a good key defender. Moore’s a wonderful interceptor and but his ability to lock down on key forwards is lacking. I’d like Keane to develop in his place down back.

Howe and Roughead would still be down back to give us experience so I don’t think it will be completely hung out to dry either.

What my best 22 would look like with the proposed changes

B: Jeremy Howe ~ Jordan Roughead ~ Isaac Quaynor
HB: Reef McInnes ~ Mark Keane ~ Oliver Henry

M: Josh Daicos ~ Brayden Maynard ~ Scott Pendlebury
R: Brodie Grundy ~ Taylor Adams ~ Jack Crisp

HF: Steele Sidebottom ~ Brodie Mihocek ~ Jordan De Goey
F: Mason Cox ~ Darcy Moore ~ Jamie Elliott
I/C: Finlay Macrae (Inside Mid) ~ Trent Bianco (Outside Mid) ~ John Noble (Pressure forward) ~ Nathan Murphy (defender)

Edit: Thought of the bench
Click to expand...
I think this is the way. Half back is about the easiest spot on the ground and a great place for youngsters to find their feet. As opposed to half forward which can be starvation corner. We need to "bite the bullet and rip the bandaid off" and blood new guys in the guts and at half back. Sidebottoms time as a mid is up. I think Quaynor is a candidate to rotate through midfield as well. I'd put Howe forward, Cox or Cameron on the bench. Crisp as a permanent mid from now on is a no brainer. Maynard swaps forward with Degoey.
 
mike123 said:
Our defence has been one of our few strengths in recent years but it’s time to stop relying on it anymore. It’s not working and we’re not winning games.

Should we gut our defence and spread the talent elsewhere and allow some of our draftees to develop at half back?

First move is Crisp to the middle permanently. It’s already half happened but I’d move him to full time mid.

Next is Maynard to the midfield. He’ll add more grunt and defensive stability to the middle whilst not being bad the other way, plus his brain fades are starting to get costly down back again. I’m happy for Quaynor to play on the opposition best small forwards this year, I know it’s not the best use of his strengths but we’re not challenging this year so I’m prepared to concede goals in order to add another string to his bow and improve his defensive ability. If it get ugly I’d move Greenwood down back as a last resort.

I’d bring in Reef and Henry down back to replace the run of Quaynor and Crisp. I think they’ll have any easy time down back finding the ball and getting their confidence up then up forward being on the end of our delivery and also may end up giving our ball movement the much needed spark it needs.

I’d also like Moore up forward. I’ve always thought a good key forward is more valuable than a good key defender. Moore’s a wonderful interceptor and but his ability to lock down on key forwards is lacking. I’d like Keane to develop in his place down back.

Howe and Roughead would still be down back to give us experience so I don’t think it will be completely hung out to dry either.

What my best 22 would look like with the proposed changes

B: Jeremy Howe ~ Jordan Roughead ~ Isaac Quaynor
HB: Reef McInnes ~ Mark Keane ~ Oliver Henry

M: Josh Daicos ~ Brayden Maynard ~ Scott Pendlebury
R: Brodie Grundy ~ Taylor Adams ~ Jack Crisp

HF: Steele Sidebottom ~ Brodie Mihocek ~ Jordan De Goey
F: Mason Cox ~ Darcy Moore ~ Jamie Elliott
I/C: Finlay Macrae (Inside Mid) ~ Trent Bianco (Outside Mid) ~ John Noble (Pressure forward) ~ Nathan Murphy (defender)

Edit: Thought of the bench
Click to expand...

Pretty much spot on, I`m splitting hairs here, my preference would be Poulter over Henry at half back, just me, I think the kid has all the footy smarts and skill set to be a 200 plus game player for us of great quality , happy they finally brought in McCrae ,this kid is going to be something special , along with McMahon when he puts on another 8kg
 

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mike123 said:
Our defence has been one of our few strengths in recent years but it’s time to stop relying on it anymore. It’s not working and we’re not winning games.

Should we gut our defence and spread the talent elsewhere and allow some of our draftees to develop at half back?

First move is Crisp to the middle permanently. It’s already half happened but I’d move him to full time mid.

Next is Maynard to the midfield. He’ll add more grunt and defensive stability to the middle whilst not being bad the other way, plus his brain fades are starting to get costly down back again. I’m happy for Quaynor to play on the opposition best small forwards this year, I know it’s not the best use of his strengths but we’re not challenging this year so I’m prepared to concede goals in order to add another string to his bow and improve his defensive ability. If it get ugly I’d move Greenwood down back as a last resort.

I’d bring in Reef and Henry down back to replace the run of Quaynor and Crisp. I think they’ll have any easy time down back finding the ball and getting their confidence up then up forward being on the end of our delivery and also may end up giving our ball movement the much needed spark it needs.

I’d also like Moore up forward. I’ve always thought a good key forward is more valuable than a good key defender. Moore’s a wonderful interceptor and but his ability to lock down on key forwards is lacking. I’d like Keane to develop in his place down back.

Howe and Roughead would still be down back to give us experience so I don’t think it will be completely hung out to dry either.

What my best 22 would look like with the proposed changes

B: Jeremy Howe ~ Jordan Roughead ~ Isaac Quaynor
HB: Reef McInnes ~ Mark Keane ~ Oliver Henry

M: Josh Daicos ~ Brayden Maynard ~ Scott Pendlebury
R: Brodie Grundy ~ Taylor Adams ~ Jack Crisp

HF: Steele Sidebottom ~ Brodie Mihocek ~ Jordan De Goey
F: Mason Cox ~ Darcy Moore ~ Jamie Elliott
I/C: Finlay Macrae (Inside Mid) ~ Trent Bianco (Outside Mid) ~ John Noble (Pressure forward) ~ Nathan Murphy (defender)

Edit: Thought of the bench
Click to expand...

It’s too early for this discussion because that’s a lot of change and Buckley isn’t going to go for it anyway, IMO. With that said I look at that 22 and can’t help wondering how much worse off we’d be v the one we have this week? I’d take McReery and Sier for Adams and Elliott based on what’s currently available...
 
Scodog10 said:
It’s too early for this discussion because that’s a lot of change and Buckley isn’t going to go for it anyway, IMO. With that said I look at that 22 and can’t help wondering how much worse off we’d be v the one we have this week? I’d take McReery and Sier for Adams and Elliott based on what’s currently available...
Click to expand...
I agree I don’t think Buckley won’t go for it either. I think it’s too early for all these change and it’s not the 22 I’d bring against west coast. I think at 1 and 3 so far this season some change is needed to salvage this season though and with the way 21 footy is going in I think we need to atleast drop Mayne and Madgen and bring in players who don’t hinder our ball movement.
 
Last edited:
mike123 said:
I agree I don’t think Buckley won’t go for it either. I think it’s too early for all these change and it’s not the 22 I’d bring against west coast. I think at 1 and 3 so far this season some change is needed to salvage this season though and with the way 21 footy is going in I think we need to atleast drop Mayne and Madgen and bring in players who don’t hinder our ball movement.
Click to expand...

On this one I absolutely agree. In 2021 guys that take ground with penetration are worth their weight in gold. On that basis there’s one other point I’d make about your 22 and it’s that JDG plays midfield.

He wouldn’t be wasted in that forward mix he’d just provide more value through the middle, IMO. We’ve got to figure out how best to use him because 10-15 possessions and a goal a game falls short for me! No doubt he kicks 35-40 this year, but I don’t think that solves anything.
 
One step at a time. Crisp Madgen and Noble have already spent more time upfield. Maybe Quaynor can be next. The big move will be Moore going forward. Looking forward to seeing if that happens tonight.

Howe and Maynard along with Roughead need to stay in defence. Hopefully with Moore if they decide to swing him forward, they apply a medium term commitment to it and not just give up after 20 minutes.
 
I completely agree with this. I’ve been screaming to move our “better players” (defence players) further up the ground.

Maynard -> Murphy/ Bianco /Chugg
Quaynor -> Rantall / Wilson / Poulter

You can have Maynard & Quaynor take Madgen & Mayne’ spot.


Chugg, Keane, Moore
Howe, Roughead, Poulter
Quaynor, Maynard, Pendles
Daicos, Cox, Sidebottom
Mihocek, JDG, Beau

Grundy, Sier, Crisp

Noble, Cameron, Macrae, T.Brown/C.B

You could either play Cameron for 2nd ruck or just get Roughead to jump in similar to Balta for Richmond.

Eventually you’d like Kelly or Liam to take Cameron’ / Cox spot.
 
mike123 said:
I’d also like Moore up forward. I’ve always thought a good key forward is more valuable than a good key defender. Moore’s a wonderful interceptor and but his ability to lock down on key forwards is lacking. I’d like Keane to develop in his place down back.

Howe and Roughead would still be down back to give us experience so I don’t think it will be completely hung out to dry either.
Click to expand...

Yep.

I was always of the opinion that Moore was better in defence than as a forward, but that’s not the point.

I think he is our best backman AND our best forward. Ultimately he is our best player and given our lack of decent forward options we need him more forward than back.

We are also potentially well set up to cover him down back if we can start to pump some games into Keane and Kelly (who I think undoubtedly is a key back) whilst Roughie and Howe are still in the team.

If we wait until they really decline or retire it will be too late.
 
Rusty Beam said:
Yep.

I was always of the opinion that Moore was better in defence than as a forward, but that’s not the point.
Click to expand...

I dont know how anyone can come to that conclusion when you lay out his career.

You are comparing a skinny 1st to 3rd/4th year KPP player in a bottom 6 team each year with no support. That despite that tracked statically as good as most elite kpf did in their early careers.

Vs a 4th to 8th year matured bodied player in a top 6 side with a very excellent defensive unit in a team that's main focus was team defence.


He would need 24 months at least in the role healthy now he is mature to know even then looks like we are doing it through a rebuild is back to bot 4-6 team.
 
loki04 said:
I dont know how anyone can come to that conclusion when you lay out his career.

You are comparing a skinny 1st to 3rd/4th year KPP player in a bottom 6 team each year with no support. That despite that tracked statically as good as most elite kpf did in their early careers.

Vs a 4th to 8th year matured bodied player in a top 6 side with a very excellent defensive unit in a team that's main focus was team defence.


He would need 24 months at least in the role healthy now he is mature to know even then looks like we are doing it through a rebuild is back to bot 4-6 team.
Click to expand...

Just my personal opinion, not necessarily his exposure at AFL level.

Even as a junior I reckon he just seemed more natural as a defender.

But I do 100% agree in regards to his exposure at AFL. It’s apples vs oranges, even if just on his physical development. So it’s not really a proper comparison.

That’s why whenever I rewatch his highlights as a forward in his first few years, I get even more excited about how devastating he could be now.
 
Rusty Beam said:
Just my personal opinion, not necessarily his exposure at AFL level.

Even as a junior I reckon he just seemed more natural as a defender.

But I do 100% agree in regards to his exposure at AFL. It’s apples vs oranges, even if just on his physical development. So it’s not really a proper comparison.

That’s why whenever I rewatch his highlights as a forward in his first few years, I get even more excited about how devastating he could be now.
Click to expand...

I just hope his achilles issues are fixed before it happens, because we all know everyone will blame the move fwd like its a curse if he does it fully down there.
 
loki04 said:
I just hope his achilles issues are fixed before it happens, because we all know everyone will blame the move fwd like its a curse if he does it fully down there.
Click to expand...

That’s the worry.

Some of his grimacing at the moment sends shivers down my spine.
 
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