Club Focus GWS Giants

What is GWS's greatest focus this off-season?

  • Recruiting via trade

    Votes: 4 26.7%
  • Recruiting via the draft & academies

    Votes: 3 20.0%
  • Player retention

    Votes: 2 13.3%
  • Salary cap management

    Votes: 5 33.3%
  • Other

    Votes: 1 6.7%

  • Total voters
    15

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perplexed

Club Legend
Nov 25, 2015
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How aren’t they developing? Every one of them has had a go.
Gws isnt giving the same opportunities to its younger players that other teams are. They took 4 in the first 25 of the 2018 draft and 2 in the top ten last year, none are regulars. Across the league, most of the other players drafted that early in these drafts are regulars now.
 

General Giant

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Gws isnt giving the same opportunities to its younger players that other teams are. They took 4 in the first 25 of the 2018 draft and 2 in the top ten last year, none are regulars. Across the league, most of the other players drafted that early in these drafts are regulars now.
We have given plenty of opportunities. Do I wish Green was in the side? Yep but he isn’t. If he was angry about it he wouldn’t of extended.
Let’s go through them then.

Draft of 2018

Jye Caldwell (pick 11) has played 10 and is in current side.

Jackson Hately (Pick14) has played 12

Xavier O’Halloran (Pick 22) Has played 2 games.

Ian Hill (pick 24) has played 10 and is on current side.

Kieren Briggs (pick 34) has played zero but is a developing ruck.

Connor Idun (Pick 61) has played 1

Draft of 2019

Lachie Ash (pick 4) has played 9 games

Tom Green (pick 10) has played 4.

Jake Riccardi (pick 51) debuted last week and I doubt will be dropped

Tom Hutchison (Pick 65) has played 1 game and was injured in said game.

Yeah so many top pick players not getting a go to develop
 

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citizen-erased

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watching keenly if list sizes shrink
Who makes the cut of a 35 man list at GWS? And what quality is there that doesn't.
 

perplexed

Club Legend
Nov 25, 2015
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We have given plenty of opportunities. Do I wish Green was in the side? Yep but he isn’t. If he was angry about it he wouldn’t of extended.
Let’s go through them then.

Draft of 2018

Jye Caldwell (pick 11) has played 10 and is in current side.

Jackson Hately (Pick14) has played 12

Xavier O’Halloran (Pick 22) Has played 2 games.

Ian Hill (pick 24) has played 10 and is on current side.

Kieren Briggs (pick 34) has played zero but is a developing ruck.

Connor Idun (Pick 61) has played 1

Draft of 2019

Lachie Ash (pick 4) has played 9 games

Tom Green (pick 10) has played 4.

Jake Riccardi (pick 51) debuted last week and I doubt will be dropped

Tom Hutchison (Pick 65) has played 1 game and was injured in said game.

Yeah so many top pick players not getting a go to develop
I didn't realise Ash had played so much, but being a defender isn't really relevant to the midfield issue.
As your numbers show, the young mids just aren't getting the games that their peers at other clubs are.The club thought it had a great midfield and locked away too many players on generous contracts only to discover that they aren't that flash. This has left little room for the kids, barring injuries. This is even though arguably your two most effective mids, Williams and Greene, dont play there. You've just got too many midfielders to fit into the one team.
 

General Giant

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I didn't realise Ash had played so much, but being a defender isn't really relevant to the midfield issue.
It’s relevant to the top picks aren’t getting games comment.

As your numbers show, the young mids just aren't getting the games that their peers at other clubs are.
The numbers show they are getting the games, you can’t compare that to a club at the bottom or club with serious injuries.

The club thought it had a great midfield and locked away too many players on generous contracts only to discover that they aren't that flash.
Name and shame. Who are these not flash midfielders?

It’s funny, when we sign someone to 2 years it’s because the player is only sticking around for some success before going to a “real club”. When we sign them long term we are too generous.

This has left little room for the kids, barring injuries. This is even though arguably your two most effective mids, Williams and Greene, dont play there.
I would say Kelly has been our best lately. By a bit too.

Williams gets us out of trouble out of the back. Greene is our magic.

Either way after 13 games this season our draft picks are all getting a go.

You've just got too many midfielders to fit into the one team.
I do agree we will end up trading some. Only thing I can agree with. We will keep who we think are the best and trade the rest.
 

perplexed

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Nov 25, 2015
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It’s relevant to the top picks aren’t getting games comment.



The numbers show they are getting the games, you can’t compare that to a club at the bottom or club with serious injuries.



Name and shame. Who are these not flash midfielders?

It’s funny, when we sign someone to 2 years it’s because the player is only sticking around for some success before going to a “real club”. When we sign them long term we are too generous.



I would say Kelly has been our best lately. By a bit too.

Williams gets us out of trouble out of the back. Greene is our magic.

Either way after 13 games this season our draft picks are all getting a go.



I do agree we will end up trading some. Only thing I can agree with. We will keep who we think are the best and trade the rest.
Port Adelaide and GC are the other clubs who loaded up in these drafts. GC is obviously an exception, but Port have played all their kids and are on top.

Thanks for asking for advice on your midfield. The starting mids are struggling. Hopper because he isnt very good and Cogs because he is an excellent role player but not a prime mover. Also Ward, when he plays, doesnt have a worthwhile role anymore. I'd ship Hopper off and play Cogs in a run-with role or forward. This would free up some space in the rotation for the kids and Toby.
 

General Giant

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Port Adelaide and GC are the other clubs who loaded up in these drafts. GC is obviously an exception, but Port have played all their kids and are on top.

Thanks for asking for advice on your midfield. The starting mids are struggling. Hopper because he isnt very good and Cogs because he is an excellent role player but not a prime mover. Also Ward, when he plays, doesnt have a worthwhile role anymore. I'd ship Hopper off and play Cogs in a run-with role or forward. This would free up some space in the rotation for the kids and Toby.
Ok, I’m very very glad you have nothing to do with our list management.
 

Giant Strides

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Nov 23, 2015
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Ash, the 4th pick in 2019, has played the 3rd most games of last year's draft crop. Developing well in the backline and will be entrenched in the side next year when Shaw retires.

Green, the 10th pick, has played the 15th most games. Just two games behind the 9th most games. Green is suffering from there being less injuries this year among our inside mids, but like others I would have liked to see him play a few more games. Yes the midfield is out of form, but you don't get back in form by not playing, and the ''scratch matches'' for the seconds players is far from ideal.

The teams who've played their early draftees more - Gold Coast, Melbourne, Adelaide, Norths, Hawthorn, Sydney are all because they were crap and needed youth - and Port.

The ''4 in the top 25'' from 2018 have 3 of the top 28 games across two years. Some of that is due to injury, some due to not being as good as those in the team. Last year the team made it to the GF - those who held best 22 roles did the job, and those 4 just weren't able to push any of them out.

I've found over the last few years that we are alternatively told we have too much talent or we lack depth; often in the same year! I put zero credibility in external observations.

It's a really silly argument to say the current GWS situation is down to not playing the kids. If they bide their time, they'll get a go if they're good enough. Yes, they would probably have played more in a poor side, like Norths or Adelaide.

Over the past few years the club has managed the list well, culling some of the older players to ensure there's a blend of experience. We've thinned out the early years (2011/2012) where we had multiple players, to where we have a small number of really good players plus some role and depth players. Jezza, Cogs, Haynes, Toby, Lachie are in the first bracket; Buntine, Kennedy in the second. The current age profile is spreading well, and most teams in the league, especially those pushing for top 8 spots, are not playing masses of recent draftees.
 

perplexed

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Ash, the 4th pick in 2019, has played the 3rd most games of last year's draft crop. Developing well in the backline and will be entrenched in the side next year when Shaw retires.

Green, the 10th pick, has played the 15th most games. Just two games behind the 9th most games. Green is suffering from there being less injuries this year among our inside mids, but like others I would have liked to see him play a few more games. Yes the midfield is out of form, but you don't get back in form by not playing, and the ''scratch matches'' for the seconds players is far from ideal.

The teams who've played their early draftees more - Gold Coast, Melbourne, Adelaide, Norths, Hawthorn, Sydney are all because they were crap and needed youth - and Port.

The ''4 in the top 25'' from 2018 have 3 of the top 28 games across two years. Some of that is due to injury, some due to not being as good as those in the team. Last year the team made it to the GF - those who held best 22 roles did the job, and those 4 just weren't able to push any of them out.

I've found over the last few years that we are alternatively told we have too much talent or we lack depth; often in the same year! I put zero credibility in external observations.

It's a really silly argument to say the current GWS situation is down to not playing the kids. If they bide their time, they'll get a go if they're good enough. Yes, they would probably have played more in a poor side, like Norths or Adelaide.

Over the past few years the club has managed the list well, culling some of the older players to ensure there's a blend of experience. We've thinned out the early years (2011/2012) where we had multiple players, to where we have a small number of really good players plus some role and depth players. Jezza, Cogs, Haynes, Toby, Lachie are in the first bracket; Buntine, Kennedy in the second. The current age profile is spreading well, and most teams in the league, especially those pushing for top 8 spots, are not playing masses of recent draftees.
Ok, so what is the problem with your midfield?
perplexed

What are you actually getting at??

Can you put up something in regards to the trading with the GWS list?? That or stop throwing rocks at glass houses because you aren’t adding a great deal


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sure. I keep hearing what isn't the problem but not what is. You cant keep starting Hopper, Cogs and Kelly in the middle and get beaten in there week after week.
Trade Hopper and play Cogs as a forward or a tagger. I'd keep Kelly, but not if it means losing Williams or Cameron.
 

General Giant

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Ok, so what is the problem with your midfield?

Sure. I keep hearing what isn't the problem but not what is. You cant keep starting Hopper, Cogs and Kelly in the middle and get beaten in there week after week.
Trade Hopper and play Cogs as a forward or a tagger. I'd keep Kelly, but not if it means losing Williams or Cameron.
Wrong?

It’s simple really.

In the 1st few rounds we were too slow getting it in the fwd 50 looking for the perfect entries. Hense lowest number of fwd 50’s but the best conversion rate.

We then went the complete opposite and just banged away, but barely scored from them. Basically not lowering our eyes.

Last night we found middle ground which worked really really well.
 
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Mego Red

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We have given plenty of opportunities. Do I wish Green was in the side? Yep but he isn’t. If he was angry about it he wouldn’t of extended.
Let’s go through them then.

Draft of 2018

Jye Caldwell (pick 11) has played 10 and is in current side.

Jackson Hately (Pick14) has played 12

Xavier O’Halloran (Pick 22) Has played 2 games.

Ian Hill (pick 24) has played 10 and is on current side.

Kieren Briggs (pick 34) has played zero but is a developing ruck.

Connor Idun (Pick 61) has played 1

Draft of 2019

Lachie Ash (pick 4) has played 9 games

Tom Green (pick 10) has played 4.

Jake Riccardi (pick 51) debuted last week and I doubt will be dropped

Tom Hutchison (Pick 65) has played 1 game and was injured in said game.

Yeah so many top pick players not getting a go to develop
Depends if you think development is one week in the side and three weeks sitting in the stands.
 

perplexed

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Wrong?

It’s simple really.

In the 1st few rounds we were too slow getting it in the fwd 50 looking for the perfect entries. Hense lowest number of fwd 50’s but the best conversion rate.

We then went the complete opposite and just banged away, but barely scored from them. Basically not lowering our eyes.

Last night we found middle ground which worked really really well.
I think you'll also find that last night's cba's will be quite different. You looked a lot less predictable.
 

perplexed

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Nov 25, 2015
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Yes I did. But you honestly think our fwd 50 entries weren’t different to weeks before?
Of course not, when did I claim that? The two are related. The entries improved because you changed your midfield.
We seem to be in agreement but want to win a pissing contest.
 

General Giant

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Of course not, when did I claim that? The two are related. The entries improved because you changed your midfield.
We seem to be in agreement but want to win a pissing contest.
You asked what was wrong with our midfield. I replied.

You couldn’t seem to understand and carried on.

I stand by what I said and will move on.
 

Pomsta

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Yes I did. But you honestly think our fwd 50 entries weren’t different to weeks before?
I think the major difference is the last 2 weeks is you put in a kid that knows how to run AFL standard forward patterns instead of an athlete that runs and jumps a lot. Riccardi gave the midfielders a genuine leading target in space instead of Finlayson that runs the F50 boundary, usually on one side of the ground only, and using his athleticism to try to jump and mark. Defenders also don't know exactly where Riccardi is going whereas Finlayson always goes to the same spot so is very easy to defend. Funnily enough this makes the midfielders look better.
 

General Giant

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I think the major difference is the last 2 weeks is you put in a kid that knows how to run AFL standard forward patterns instead of an athlete that runs and jumps a lot. Riccardi gave the midfielders a genuine leading target in space instead of Finlayson that runs the F50 boundary, usually on one side of the ground only, and using his athleticism to try to jump and mark. Defenders also don't know exactly where Riccardi is going whereas Finlayson always goes to the same spot so is very easy to defend. Funnily enough this makes the midfielders look better.
Disagree in that Our midfield was trying to find the balance in how we went into that 50 which was our major issue since the return.

Though Jezza, HH and Finlayson have been massively down in confidence.
 

Giant Strides

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Huh, anyone who thinks changing one forward in our side has miraculously cured all of our ills and solved our problems is just ... being unrealistic. Like life, the reasons why the GWS players have been down this year will be a complex mixture. Yes, Riccardi has improved us (not least because he kicked 4 goals in a game against an average of 1 for the guy he replaced) no doubt. But the midfield were much better - and not just because the forwards were better (although they were!). For whatever reason, our guys have been down on endeavour, skills and confidence - and there's a catch-22 situation whereby being down in one leads to degrading the others, leading to further degradation. It would be nice to think we've solved the problem and will continue to improve for the rest of the year, but we've had other good games and regressed, so we'll see.

The midfielders GWS plays are skilled and experienced and have done the job in the past. You don't just willy nilly throw that away to try youngsters just for the sake of it. The draftees have all had a go in the side, and shown they have something to work with, but aren't better than the experienced guys (even down on form). They get a few games, get a rest, get tried again later. That's how all/most sides do it unless someone shows themselves to be a gun right from the start, or because the club is in a hole and needs to pump games into draftees.

Riccardi will presumably have earned himself a place in the side for the foreseeable future with his last two weeks play; but if he now has 3 or 4 barren weeks then he'd get a rest and a run in the 2s (obviously COVID impacted! this year) to rediscover form. Ash has had an extended run this season, with a week out after a couple of down weeks - because we want to develop him, and that's normal. Caldwell, Hately, O'Halloran, Bobby have all had chances and will get others - they are normal kids who develop at different rates. (Bobby should get a few games now on the strength of that game, but needs to find consistency in performance, and some defensive edge.)
 

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