GWS is a great asset to the code and all fans.

[iameviljez]

They're both extreme situations though. There is a middle ground. It's not like we have to ensure instant success otherwise they'll end up like the '89-'91 Bears

True, but they did very well out of the hand that they were dealt as well. In particular, they have gotten their experienced player recruitment right - Mumford, Shaw, Ward, Davis, Scully and Patfull all really worthwhile pickups. Gold Coast, on the other hand...

 

[Big Stinky Monk]

Go home factor is not a benefit when you are one of 10 clubs competing for that players services. Can't remember the last time Melbourne benefited from a "go home" factor, maybe Jeff White? Sydney has recruited guys like Lockett, Hall, Franklin and Tippett, Brisbane poached Beams and Christensen the Giants lured Ward, Griffen, Johnson etc - I dont think recruiting is and huge issue for non-Vic clubs.

Dom Tyson says hi

 

[Ichabod Noodle]

Dom Tyson says hi

And Sam Frost, and to a lesser extent Tom Bugg.

 

[TiAn_]

Can't believe GWS managed to replace superstars like Sam Frost and Tomas Bugg. Someone give them another first rounder just to be safe.

 

[Dynamics]

Hird and Jezza are from the ACT, small distinction to you but quite a big one for anyone from Canberra.

Glad I saw your post as I was going to say something similar.

Jezza, Josh Bruce and Craig Bolton were Eastlake men (a wise choice).

Hird was Ainslie, as was Shaun Smith.
Nathan Buckley very briefly, so it's a stretch to take credit for him!

Mick Conlan played for Manuka.

Phil Davis was born in Canberra and moved away with family at 14. He played for Marist though. That doesn't really count as football.

Brett Allison and Jack Steele are northsiders who played for Belconnen.

Aaron Hammill and Justin Blumfield played for Tugggeranong.

There are other who have played at high levels but that'll do.

Now all I need is for the Giants to become the Canberra Giants and I'll have to buy two memberships each year.

 

[PP34]

The way I see it, they'll most likely end up like the Storm. The Storm have won a lot, pretty sure they get decent attendances and a few people tune in from Victoria to watch, but in the grand scheme of things, hardly a relevant number of people give a s**t about them. Kids aren't lining up to play rugby league, kids still much prefer basketball, cricket, soccer and footy.

GWS winning a few flags will be a lot of pain for the fairness of the game as a whole, for little return. You're trying to mess with years and years of people growing up and loving rugby, in the hope you can be at least relevant in the area. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. I'm aware GWS does a lot of community stuff, and some kids are playing footy from a young age, but kids are like that. They bandwagon onto any sport they can. When we were in primary school, we played soccer for weeks during the world cup, we watched the cricket and played that a ton, but by the time we were in the more serious part of our sporting lives where there's only time for a sport or two, we would all end up back playing footy.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

If the rest of broadcast ratings are in decline, then the fact that TV sport is increasing and bucking the trend makes the proportional increase from previous deals even greater. This can only come about if advertising revenue grows. If new markets are not being created, the growth would only be proportional to the population increase existing markets.

I do not have the data to do a full factor analysis on this; So I can't work out exactly how much of the increase is due to new markets, and how much is due to population increases, how much is due to popularity increases, and what effect the overall decline in broadcast TV has on live programming.

I think it is growing partly because of the expansion, and you disagree. Let's leave it at that.

How many more people a week have been watching in Sydney since 2012? Does that account for an extra $1.25b over 5 years?

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Dom Tyson says hi

And Sam Frost, and to a lesser extent Tom Bugg.

Oh right so now any time a trade happens it's because of "go home" factor. GWS weren't too fussed about losing Bugg and Frost and Tyson netted you Kelly so I don't think Silvagni was complaining at the time.

 

[Mutt]

Are clubs getting less money now than before we entered?
No.
So its not costing your club a cent.

Your claim that GWS has not cost other clubs a cent is based on a flawed assumption, not a fact. The $100M cost thus far of establishing and running GWS has cost each of the other clubs (excluding Gold Coast) approximately $6.5M in revenue foregone.

I know you are stating that the TV rights have increased in value because of the expansion teams and there's your justification. Well, there are any number of ways that the AFL could have configured a 16 team competition to get the same value for the TV networks: for example playing more rounds; a longer finals series; scheduling games to better suit the networks etc. The AFL trots out the line that the extra money only came from an expanded number of teams, but nobody who understands anything at all about the television industry, including the AFL, really believes that.

Of course there will be compromises and issues that would arise from any of the alternative ways to raise the value of the TV rights, but that doesn't change the fact that the decision to go down the expansion route has come at a real cost to the 16 pre-expansion clubs.

I support the establishment of GWS and GC, so don't think I'm just wanting to bash your club. Nothing could be further from the truth. I just wish that GWS supporters would acknowledge some of the legitimate concerns that supporters of the non expansion clubs have.

 

[Colonial]

Your claim that GWS has not cost other clubs a cent is based on a flawed assumption, not a fact. The $100M cost thus far of establishing and running GWS has cost each of the other clubs (excluding Gold Coast) approximately $6.5M in revenue foregone.

I know you are stating that the TV rights have increased in value because of the expansion teams and there's your justification. Well, there are any number of ways that the AFL could have configured a 16 team competition to get the same value for the TV networks: for example playing more rounds; a longer finals series; scheduling games to better suit the networks etc. The AFL trots out the line that the extra money only came from an expanded number of teams, but nobody who understands anything at all about the television industry, including the AFL, really believes that.

Of course there will be compromises and issues that would arise from any of the alternative ways to raise the value of the TV rights, but that doesn't change the fact that the decision to go down the expansion route has come at a real cost to the 16 pre-expansion clubs.

I support the establishment of GWS and GC, so don't think I'm just wanting to bash your club. Nothing could be further from the truth. I just wish that GWS supporters would acknowledge some of the legitimate concerns that supporters of the non expansion clubs have.

It is fact.

The money given to clubs since our arrival hasnt gone down. It might not of gone up as much as it would if we werent here but it hasnt gone down.

I have no problems with the traditionalists and respect how they are the originals.
But i just wish they would stop death riding my club and expecting us to be a feeder club and come 18th for 40 years to suposedly "earn" success.

 

[Mutt]

It is fact.

The money given to clubs since our arrival hasnt gone down. It might not of gone up as much as it would if we werent here but it hasnt gone down.

I have no problems with the traditionalists and respect how they are the originals.
But i just wish they would stop death riding my club and expecting us to be a feeder club and come 18th for 40 years to suposedly "earn" success.

With respect, the fact that AFL revenues have gone up doesn't change the point that there has been a significant cost for the competition in achieving that result. Neither does it change the fact that there are other ways that the same revenue increase could have been achieved.

Very few lovers of the game want to "death ride" your club, or have it as a feeder club, or want GWS to spend 40 years near the bottom of the ladder. The problem I see at the moment is that many GWS supporters treat me and most other AFL fans as if we do want to grind GWS into the dirt. You see a shark in every wave. You are going to end up creating a self fulfilling prophesy if you keep up this antagonistic attitude - this us against the world stance. You will end up with the world against you, when it doesn't have to be like that.

This past week I've tried very hard to engage positively with GWS fans on here, in particular on the GWS board. I was baited, blamed for my club's banner, had posts removed for no apparent reason and was told to piss off. It's pretty hard to engage with you guys in any way other than to piss in your pockets, or fight.

 

[Randomizor]

With respect, the fact that AFL revenues have gone up doesn't change the point that there has been a significant cost for the competition in achieving that result. Neither does it change the fact that there are other ways that the same revenue increase could have been achieved.

Very few lovers of the game want to "death ride" your club, or have it as a feeder club, or want GWS to spend 40 years near the bottom of the ladder. The problem I see at the moment is that many GWS supporters treat me and most other AFL fans as if we do want to grind GWS into the dirt. You see a shark in every wave. You are going to end up creating a self fulfilling prophesy if you keep up this antagonistic attitude - this us against the world stance. You will end up with the world against you, when it doesn't have to be like that.

This past week I've tried very hard to engage positively with GWS fans on here, in particular on the GWS board. I was baited, blamed for my club's banner, had posts removed for no apparent reason and was told to piss off. It's pretty hard to engage with you guys in any way other than to piss in your pockets, or fight.

It's called "a sense of entitlement"

 

[Bokonon]

With respect, the fact that AFL revenues have gone up doesn't change the point that there has been a significant cost for the competition in achieving that result. Neither does it change the fact that there are other ways that the same revenue increase could have been achieved.

Very few lovers of the game want to "death ride" your club, or have it as a feeder club, or want GWS to spend 40 years near the bottom of the ladder. The problem I see at the moment is that many GWS supporters treat me and most other AFL fans as if we do want to grind GWS into the dirt. You see a shark in every wave. You are going to end up creating a self fulfilling prophesy if you keep up this antagonistic attitude - this us against the world stance. You will end up with the world against you, when it doesn't have to be like that.

This past week I've tried very hard to engage positively with GWS fans on here, in particular on the GWS board. I was baited, blamed for my club's banner, had posts removed for no apparent reason and was told to piss off. It's pretty hard to engage with you guys in any way other than to piss in your pockets, or fight.

Appropriately so.
Your supporters advantage of our civilised nature to troll our board. A smart person from an opposition club reading the thread would have stayed away.

 

[Mutt]

Appropriately so.
Your supporters advantage of our civilised nature to troll our board. A smart person from an opposition club reading the thread would have stayed away.

Well you've just proved my point.

 

[Bokonon]

Well you've just proved my point.

What point was that exactly? You've descended to personal abuse and refused to answer reasonable questions where facts dont agree with your predudice.
I'm happy to leave the topic, the light bulb really does have to want to change, and have the capacity to do so. I get that.
Would perhaps be better if you left it alone, but thats a matter for you. On rhe main board you will get a response though.

 

[Mutt]

It's called "a sense of entitlement"

It might seem like that, but I just reckon the GWS supporters feel like it's them against the world.

It's not a good position to be in...us Bulldogs supporters felt like it was us against the world back in 1989 when the league tried to kill our club. Ironically, the support of other clubs was instrumental in both raising money and in swaying public opinion to help us to save the club.

 

[Mutt]

What point was that exactly? You've descended to personal abuse and refused to answer reasonable questions where facts dont agree with your predudice.
I'm happy to leave the topic, the light bulb really does have to want to change, and have the capacity to do so. I get that.
Would perhaps be better if you left it alone, but thats a matter for you. On rhe main board you will get a response though.

I'm sorry, but I really don't know what you are referring to. I don't think I personally abused anybody, nor refused to answer questions.

 

[Bokonon]

I'm sorry, but I really don't know what you are referring to. I don't think I personally abused anybody, nor refused to answer questions.

Reread the discussion yesterday It's not complicated. You referred to previous interactions in your post, while I wouldn't usually you opened the door and really should retead them.

 

[Mutt]

Reread the discussion yesterday It's not complicated. You referred to previous interactions in your post, while I wouldn't usually you opened the door and really should retead them.

I referred to interactions on the GWS board, is that what you mean?

 

[madmug]

Glad I saw your post as I was going to say something similar.

Jezza, Josh Bruce and Craig Bolton were Eastlake men (a wise choice).

Hird was Ainslie, as was Shaun Smith.
Nathan Buckley very briefly, so it's a stretch to take credit for him!

Mick Conlan played for Manuka.

Phil Davis was born in Canberra and moved away with family at 14. He played for Marist though. That doesn't really count as football.

Brett Allison and Jack Steele are northsiders who played for Belconnen.

Aaron Hammill and Justin Blumfield played for Tugggeranong.

There are other who have played at high levels but that'll do.

Now all I need is for the Giants to become the Canberra Giants and I'll have to buy two memberships each year.

As a bit of extra info, Mick Conlan was born in Tasmania. His father was a super star in the day for Newtown (now Glenorchy) footy club. His dad, Neil, went to Canberra as a coach. I guess it was Manuka. Unfortunately he died quite young of a heart attack at 42. Certainly Mick has had a great career.

 

[Bokonon]

I referred to interactions on the GWS board, is that what you mean?

It clearly pointless try to be rational with you. That's not the first time you made sweeping general comment and then tried to opt out later. A rational person couldn't read them any other way othrr than as as I described. Likewise a rational person couldn't read the post I responded to this this morning as anything but condescending.

 

[Mutt]

It clearly pointless try to be rational with you. That's not the first time you made sweeping general comment and then tried to opt out later. A rational person couldn't read them any other way othrr than as as I described. Likewise a rational person couldn't read the post I responded to this this morning as anything but condescending.

I just can't follow what you are talking about. Let's take this discussion off line if you want - I'm sure we are boring the crap out of everyone else on here. Pm me if you want.

 

[Drezdyn]

How many more people a week have been watching in Sydney since 2012? Does that account for an extra $1.25b over 5 years?

You're assuming a return on investment over 5 years purely from the sydney viewership. You also need to consider the fact that the number of teams has expanded, therefore additional games per year.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

You're assuming a return on investment over 5 years purely from the sydney viewership. You also need to consider the fact that the number of teams has expanded, therefore additional games per year.

Additional games that have minimal ratings. If it's just about number of games then it wouldn't matter where any new teams were based it's just about content on TV. I agree with the expansion into WS and GC but to claim it as the reason for such a massive TV rights deal is disingenuous to say the least. On a cost/benefit rating the rest of the comp is well behind currently - obviously the expectation is this will change significantly in the coming decades

 

[Demonic Ascent]

It is fact.

The money given to clubs since our arrival hasnt gone down. It might not of gone up as much as it would if we werent here but it hasnt gone down.

I have no problems with the traditionalists and respect how they are the originals.
But i just wish they would stop death riding my club and expecting us to be a feeder club and come 18th for 40 years to suposedly "earn" success.

You've got a flawed perception of the arguments. Personally I would be happy to see successful expansion clubs but the leg up they've been given means any success will leave a sour taste. No one is saying they have to be a bottom feeder for decades. If they succeed based on their merits I don't think anyone would begrudge them. It's the artificial pump ups by the AFL to ensure they succeed that people have a problem with as it compromises the integrity of the entire competition, something the AFL always loves to finger wag to the clubs about.