GWS is the AFL's biggest problem - not North, GC, or Tassie

How to fix GWS?

  • Relocate to Canberra?

    Votes: 39 22.7%
  • 11 games in Western Sydney? Name change to Western Sydney

    Votes: 44 25.6%
  • Merge with a Vic club?

    Votes: 4 2.3%
  • Just be patient?

    Votes: 85 49.4%

  • Total voters
    172

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Nov 26, 2016
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I like the colours.

Other than green or pink, orange was pretty much the only colour not in use.

Couldn't use green while effectively taking Tasmania's spot.

People moan that the Suns look like a McDonald's advertisement, or if they use their alternate strip they're similar colours to the Crows and Brisbane's away strip. I think it's good GWS used a colour not used elsewhere in the AFL.

My first preference would've been sky blue, but I think that would've been too NSW for the ACT connection.

My gripe with the guernsey is the design. I would have preferred a more traditional design that a giant G. But nothing wrong with the colours.
 

Bjo187

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I like the colours.

Other than green or pink, orange was pretty much the only colour not in use.

Couldn't use green while effectively taking Tasmania's spot.

People moan that the Suns look like a McDonald's advertisement, or if they use their alternate strip they're similar colours to the Crows and Brisbane's away strip. I think it's good GWS used a colour not used elsewhere in the AFL.

My first preference would've been sky blue, but I think that would've been too NSW for the ACT connection.

My gripe with the guernsey is the design. I would have preferred a more traditional design that a giant G. But nothing wrong with the colours.

I would have loved them to be blue and orange for a better contrast to the swans and blue and orange goes great together and is original for any team in Australian sports. I think the problem was we have heaps of blue teams already. But red v blue for a rivalry goes the best. Like Liverpool v Everton, Chelsea v Arsenal etc it's the perfect contrast.
 
Nov 26, 2016
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I would have loved them to be blue and orange for a better contrast to the swans and blue and orange goes great together and is original for any team in Australian sports. I think the problem was we have heaps of blue teams already. But red v blue for a rivalry goes the best. Like Liverpool v Everton, Chelsea v Arsenal etc it's the perfect contrast.

That would've been a great combo, it definitely goes together well in North American sports.

But you're right with two many blue teams. Nine teams already have blue in some form. But the blue v red clash is so soothing, especially North v Sydney.
 

Bjo187

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That would've been a great combo, it definitely goes together well in North American sports.

But you're right with two many blue teams. Nine teams already have blue in some form. But the blue v red clash is so soothing, especially North v Sydney.

Yep, the ideal for me would be:

  • north relocated to become North Sydney Kangaroos, they have the whole area of Sydney on that side of the bridge, basically from Parramatta river up (blue). Playing out of a redeveloped north sydney oval. Still get 3 home games at marvel to retain all the Victorian north fans interest.
  • the other side of the bride is swans, which have that whole side of the bridge below Parramatta river (red).
  • relocate gws to become the Canberra Giants, 8 games in Canberra, 3 at the showgrounds, to maintain a small presence in western sydney for those fans.

I reckon that balance would be perfect and create a much stronger second sydney team (like the swans/south model), assist with the long term issue of North Melbourne and strengthen the Giants, whilst retaining a small presence in western sydney so that all that effort isn't completely down the drain.

20220912_104103.jpg
 

RedV3x

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Dec 14, 2015
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Yep, the ideal for me would be:

  • north relocated to become North Sydney Kangaroos, they have the whole area of Sydney on that side of the bridge, basically from Parramatta river up (blue). Playing out of a redeveloped north sydney oval. Still get 3 home games at marvel to retain all the Victorian north fans interest.
  • the other side of the bride is swans, which have that whole side of the bridge below Parramatta river (red).
  • relocate gws to become the Canberra Giants, 8 games in Canberra, 3 at the showgrounds, to maintain a small presence in western sydney for thosefans.

You simply cannot allocate people.
North Sydney, Sydney and Eastern Suburbs are the history behind the Swans and AFL in Sydney.
GWS are the geographically central Sydney team. To overlook that is to overlook the fact to why GWS was created.
North failed miserably in Sydney. there is no return for North in Sydney in any guise what-so-ever.
North are a much better fit for Canberra. Simple.
 

Bjo187

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You simply cannot allocate people.
North Sydney, Sydney and Eastern Suburbs are the history behind the Swans and AFL in Sydney.
GWS are the geographically central Sydney team. To overlook that is to overlook the fact to why GWS was created.
North failed miserably in Sydney. there is no return for North in Sydney in any guise what-so-ever.
North are a much better fit for Canberra. Simple.

I know the north sydney area well and the statistics of the area, it would be a success with its own team. People from north sydney don't like crossing the bridge to go to east sydney. Plus Australian football resonates better in the wealthier parts of Sydney compared to in the West. Plus there is pretty much zero competition in the area compared to in West Sydney.
 

RedV3x

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I know the north sydney area well and the statistics of the area, it would be a success with its own team. People from north sydney don't like crossing the bridge to go to east sydney. Plus Australian football resonates better in the wealthier parts of Sydney compared to in the West. Plus there is pretty much zero competition in the area compared to in West Sydney.
YES and it belongs to the SWANS. It's not some virgin wasteland it's cultivated Swan's territory.
For the same reason a Perth3 would struggle because the Eagles and Dockers pretty much own Perth.
 

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Nov 26, 2016
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I know the north sydney area well and the statistics of the area, it would be a success with its own team. People from north sydney don't like crossing the bridge to go to east sydney. Plus Australian football resonates better in the wealthier parts of Sydney compared to in the West. Plus there is pretty much zero competition in the area compared to in West Sydney.

I know it's closer for many in North Sydney, but is North Sydney Oval easier to get to than the SCG? I know a lot of Sydney's transport is focused on getting to the CBD.

NSO would need a significant redevelopment. The field itself is good for AFLW, but far too small for men's. I think they played 15-a-side when they had preseason matches. It would probably have to be rotated to avoid knocking down the pre-existing grandstands.

Interestingly, of the two Swans AFLW games, North Sydney had a much higher attendance than the SCG. I know it was the Swans' first ever game, but telling that people are willing and able to get there.

North playing at the SCG wasn't hugely successful last time, but it wasn't exactly a failure. North were still holding their own against NRL crowds. And there would be a point of difference this time rather than playing their games the same place as the Swans.

If we were to go down the route of relocating a team to North Sydney, I'd like to keep the Giants where they are. They service different markets. I think the Victorian team should be a gradual relocation, rather than just plonking them there. Have the relocated team play three or so games a year at NSO, including against GWS and the Swans, then ramp it up if it's successful. It would be interesting if the Bulldogs were relocated there, the GWS-Bulldogs rivalry would suddenly become the biggest derby in town.
 
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I know it's closer for many in North Sydney, but is North Sydney Oval easier to get to than the SCG? I know a lot of Sydney's transport is focused on getting to the CBD.

NSO would need a significant redevelopment. The field itself is good for AFLW, but far too small for men's. I think they played 15-a-side when they had preseason matches. It would probably have to be rotated to avoid knocking down the pre-existing grandstands.

Interestingly, of the two Swans AFLW games, North Sydney had a much higher attendance than the SCG. I know it was the Swans' first ever game, but telling that people are willing and able to get there.

North playing at the SCG wasn't hugely successful last time, but it wasn't exactly a failure. North were still holding their own against NRL crowds. And there would be a point of difference this time rather than playing their games the same place as the Swans.

If we were to go down the route of relocating a team to North Sydney, I'd like to keep the Giants where they are. They service different markets. I think the Victorian team should be a gradual relocation, rather than just plonking them there. Have the relocated team play three or so games a year at NSO, including against GWS and the Swans, then ramp it up if it's successful. It would be interesting if the Bulldogs were relocated there, the GWS-Bulldogs rivalry would suddenly become the biggest derby in town.

North Sydney couldn't support their own NRL team, the North Sydney Bears. That says it all IMO.

The NSO isn't going to be expanded. It' fine for cricket, it has heritage facilities around it & anyway the locals wouldn't allow any development to encroach on the surrounding park.

Its about a 15minute walk from NS station to NSO. Nearby parking is near impossible for any sort of crowd.
 

RedV3x

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NSO would need a significant redevelopment.

And a land grab which would be a major obstacle.
North playing at the SCG wasn't hugely successful last time, but it wasn't exactly a failure. North were still holding their own against NRL crowds.

Well by that measure, GWS is a success so WTF are we talking about N.M. for ?

If we were to go down the route of relocating a team to North Sydney,

There is no way in the world a new AFL team will play out of N.S.O. because it's in the heart of Swan's territory.
 

Bjo187

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I know it's closer for many in North Sydney, but is North Sydney Oval easier to get to than the SCG? I know a lot of Sydney's transport is focused on getting to the CBD.

NSO would need a significant redevelopment. The field itself is good for AFLW, but far too small for men's. I think they played 15-a-side when they had preseason matches. It would probably have to be rotated to avoid knocking down the pre-existing grandstands.

Interestingly, of the two Swans AFLW games, North Sydney had a much higher attendance than the SCG. I know it was the Swans' first ever game, but telling that people are willing and able to get there.

North playing at the SCG wasn't hugely successful last time, but it wasn't exactly a failure. North were still holding their own against NRL crowds. And there would be a point of difference this time rather than playing their games the same place as the Swans.

If we were to go down the route of relocating a team to North Sydney, I'd like to keep the Giants where they are. They service different markets. I think the Victorian team should be a gradual relocation, rather than just plonking them there. Have the relocated team play three or so games a year at NSO, including against GWS and the Swans, then ramp it up if it's successful. It would be interesting if the Bulldogs were relocated there, the GWS-Bulldogs rivalry would suddenly become the biggest derby in town.

A few points to respond to you and the others. Sydney people don't like traveling outside of their own area, especially those from north sydney. I know because my best mate lives there and his wife has lived there her whole life and he used to work managing the shop at north sydney oval. I've been up there to visit them plenty of times and stayed in crows nest. It's basically another city, years ago it was the third biggest CBD in Australia behind Melbourne and Sydney and has a population over 1 million in the area, with statistically the lowest interest in rugby league in the entire state (Dr Hunter fujak).

  • north sydney oval could easily be extended out to ridge st to retain some stands (none are heritage listed anyway). I doubt people would complain they would be happy getting their own professional sports team, they are still angry about the bears being kicked out and there is a truckload of park space around that whole block.
  • north sydney is a mostly Australian area that is there for the taking as rugby union has disintegrated and they have no nrl team. Compared to ws which has so much competition and is filled with nationalities that have zero interest in afl.
  • you wouldn't get funding for redevelopment with a 3x per year side only a relocated side.
  • all north sydney teams have been strongly supported in the past, exceeding averages in their sports, including the bears and spirit, the bears still have a big following 20 years later.
  • they would have more fans than gws from day one and the backing of Victorian north fans really helps for online traffic/ interest etc.
  • yes people following afl in north sydney would follow the swans, but they don't have a local team of choice and mostly don't attend games anyway. They aren't that attached that they wouldn't jump on a local team, they are a proud area, it's a status in Sydney to say you are from north sydney.
  • It's not swans heartland, the east is, Gillon even mentioned that on radio last week. Bloody hell if the swans can't survive off having the whole bottom half of Sydney and the state they are in big trouble, they are already massive.
  • the women's game showed the types of crowds they would get.
  • it follows more of the Sydney sports teams model of having local stadiums for local people.
  • yes the 'potential' isn't as great as western sydney because gws has 3x the population, but it is 10x more likely to actually work, be sustainable and popular and could even get fans from Newcastle as well in the future.
  • Players will actually want to play and live there, it's the most attractive place to live in the whole of Sydney imo. As opposed to out in western sydney where nobody wants to stay.
  • I actually think it would get much more friendly media than gws got because it's not trying to steal participants from r.l and soccer.
  • It's where the money is in Sydney, so would attract some wealthy fans and sponsors.
 
Last edited:

TWLS

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A few points to respond to you and the others. Sydney people don't like traveling outside of their own area, especially those from north sydney. I know because my best mate lives there and his wife has lived there her whole life and he used to work managing the shop at north sydney oval. I've been up there to visit them plenty of times and stayed in crows nest. It's basically another city, years ago it was the third biggest CBD in Australia behind Melbourne and Sydney and has a population over 1 million in the area, with statistically the lowest interest in rugby league in the entire state (Dr Hunter fujak).

  • north sydney oval could easily be extended out to ridge st to retain some stands (none are heritage listed anyway). I doubt people would complain they would be happy getting their own professional sports team, they are still angry about the bears being kicked out and there is a truckload of park space around that whole block.
  • north sydney is a mostly Australian area that is there for the taking as rugby union has disintegrated and they have no nrl team. Compared to ws which has so much competition and is filled with nationalities that have zero interest in afl.
  • you wouldn't get funding for redevelopment with a 3x per year side only a relocated side.
  • all north sydney teams have been strongly supported in the past, exceeding averages in their sports, including the bears and spirit, the bears still have a big following 20 years later.
  • they would have more fans than gws from day one and the backing of Victorian north fans really helps for online traffic/ interest etc.
  • yes people following afl in north sydney would follow the swans, but they don't have a local team of choice and mostly don't attend games anyway. They aren't that attached that they wouldn't jump on a local team, they are a proud area, it's a status in Sydney to say you are from north sydney.
  • It's not swans heartland, the east is, Gillon even mentioned that on radio last week. Bloody hell if the swans can't survive off having the whole bottom half of Sydney and the state they are in big trouble, they are already massive.
  • the women's game showed the types of crowds they would get.
  • it follows more of the Sydney sports teams model of having local stadiums for local people.
  • yes the 'potential' isn't as great as western sydney because gws has 3x the population, but it is 10x more likely to actually work, be sustainable and popular and could even get fans from Newcastle as well in the future.
  • Players will actually want to play and live there, it's the most attractive place to live in the whole of Sydney imo. As opposed to out in western sydney where nobody wants to stay.
  • I actually think it would get much more friendly media than gws got because it's not trying to steal participants from r.l and soccer.
  • It's where the money is in Sydney, so would attract some wealthy fans and sponsors.
If the comments above about Rugby collapsing in that very very wealthy area are correct then it is a no brainer to set up a team -However the bird has flown so as to speak in the mens game to GWS but the womens game will do ok in that area I am tipping even without a Senior team.
So to sum up we have a area with lots of potential but will not be properly catered for at all.
Great comments by the way having lived in Sydney for 7 years and used to venture over the Harbour Bridge regularly.
 

RedV3x

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north sydney oval could easily be extended out to ridge st to retain some stands (none are heritage listed anyway).

Physically it would be easy. In every other way it would be difficult.

I doubt people would complain they would be happy getting their own professional sports team,

North Sydney had their own professional team and they weren't that fussed about losing it.
north sydney is a mostly Australian area that is there for the taking as rugby union has disintegrated and they have no nrl team.

Yes and the swans have tried to leverage that as much as possible.

Compared to ws which has so much competition and is filled with nationalities that have zero interest in afl.

You lost all credibility there.


all north sydney teams have been strongly supported in the past, exceeding averages in their sports, including the bears and spirit, the bears still have a big following 20 years later.

You lost all credibility there.

they would have more fans than gws from day one and the backing of Victorian north fans really helps for online traffic/ interest etc.

"they" ? the swans a re there nd N.M failed miserably to get support in Sydney.


  • yes people following afl in north sydney would follow the swans, but they don't have a local team of choice and mostly don't attend games anyway.

People are following the Swans there and North Shore and now Manly in the local league.

They aren't that attached that they wouldn't jump on a local team,

The Swans are a local team. N.M. are Victorian.

It's not swans heartland, the east is

You lost all credibility there.
the women's game showed the types of crowds they would get.

The women's game showed the Swans/Giants rivalry and that N.S.O. is a good AFLW oval.
it follows more of the Sydney sports teams model of having local stadiums for local people.

And minute crowds as well ?
yes the 'potential' isn't as great as western sydney because gws has 3x the population, but it is 10x more likely to actually work, be sustainable and popular and could even get fans from Newcastle as well in the future.

You'd be surprised at how far Swans fans travel already.

Players will actually want to play and live there, it's the most attractive place to live in the whole of Sydney imo. As opposed to out in western sydney where nobody wants to stay.

Probably but not playing for N.M. And there is some great reasl estate in W.S. or simply live near a train line.

I actually think it would get much more friendly media than gws got because it's not trying to steal participants from r.l and soccer.

You lost all credibility there.

It's where the money is in Sydney, so would attract some wealthy fans and sponsors.

If you think nobody has already tried then You lost all credibility there.
 
Nov 26, 2016
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A few points to respond to you and the others. Sydney people don't like traveling outside of their own area, especially those from north sydney. I know because my best mate lives there and his wife has lived there her whole life and he used to work managing the shop at north sydney oval. I've been up there to visit them plenty of times and stayed in crows nest. It's basically another city, years ago it was the third biggest CBD in Australia behind Melbourne and Sydney and has a population over 1 million in the area, with statistically the lowest interest in rugby league in the entire state (Dr Hunter fujak).

  • north sydney oval could easily be extended out to ridge st to retain some stands (none are heritage listed anyway). I doubt people would complain they would be happy getting their own professional sports team, they are still angry about the bears being kicked out and there is a truckload of park space around that whole block.
  • north sydney is a mostly Australian area that is there for the taking as rugby union has disintegrated and they have no nrl team. Compared to ws which has so much competition and is filled with nationalities that have zero interest in afl.
  • you wouldn't get funding for redevelopment with a 3x per year side only a relocated side.
  • all north sydney teams have been strongly supported in the past, exceeding averages in their sports, including the bears and spirit, the bears still have a big following 20 years later.
  • they would have more fans than gws from day one and the backing of Victorian north fans really helps for online traffic/ interest etc.
  • yes people following afl in north sydney would follow the swans, but they don't have a local team of choice and mostly don't attend games anyway. They aren't that attached that they wouldn't jump on a local team, they are a proud area, it's a status in Sydney to say you are from north sydney.
  • It's not swans heartland, the east is, Gillon even mentioned that on radio last week. Bloody hell if the swans can't survive off having the whole bottom half of Sydney and the state they are in big trouble, they are already massive.
  • the women's game showed the types of crowds they would get.
  • it follows more of the Sydney sports teams model of having local stadiums for local people.
  • yes the 'potential' isn't as great as western sydney because gws has 3x the population, but it is 10x more likely to actually work, be sustainable and popular and could even get fans from Newcastle as well in the future.
  • Players will actually want to play and live there, it's the most attractive place to live in the whole of Sydney imo. As opposed to out in western sydney where nobody wants to stay.
  • I actually think it would get much more friendly media than gws got because it's not trying to steal participants from r.l and soccer.
  • It's where the money is in Sydney, so would attract some wealthy fans and sponsors.

Good insight.

I agree you wouldn't get major funding for a new stadium for only a few games, but would it need a major redevelopment for a part-time team? The current stadium capacity is apparently 16k. For the realignment, you'd have to knock down some grandstands, but the majority could remain as they are. Then the remaining perimeter could just be hill. Given the greater perimeter for hill space, you shouldn't lose any capacity, maybe even gain a bit. So at ~16k, NSO would be bigger than Manuka Oval, and not far from Bellerive.

Newcastle just changed the size of their oval to suit AFL. It's 20k, with the majority of it hill. It apparently only cost $7m. I wouldn't say NSO could be done quite so cheaply, but I think it could still be done to a part-time team standard pretty cheaply.

It'd take a bold administrator to push a relocation to North Sydney in one move. I just don't think it'll happen these days.
 

RedV3x

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I agree you wouldn't get major funding for a new stadium for only a few games,

N.S.O. could be an AFLW and local football centre.
but would it need a major redevelopment for a part-time team?

Not at all. It is easy to re-align the oval in the direction of the memorial which is currently a grassy bank.
The hard part is getting the permission to do it.
The current stadium capacity is apparently 16k.

The current oval capacity is 16k. You wouldn't call it a stadium as such.
For the realignment, you'd have to knock down some grandstands, but the majority could remain as they are.

A re-alignment with the memorial would leave all but the northern stands with more (and better) concourse.
The capacity would be increased simply because it would be a larger oval plus
a new stand could complete the encirclement of the oval.
I wouldn't say NSO could be done quite so cheaply, but I think it could still be done to a part-time team standard pretty cheaply.

IMO it could be done very cheaply in relative terms.
It'd take a bold administrator to push a relocation to North Sydney in one move. I just don't think it'll happen these days.

that's what people have been saying all along.
 

COOGRE

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Shouldve built their matchday oval in Blacktown and built their training facilities on the north shore. That way the afl players would be happy and they would be playing in the represented region not the inner west lol
 

kranger

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Just reflecting on GWS home crowds (excluding 2020/22).


Showgrounds 69 games average 10,525.
Manuka Oval 28 games average 10,409.

However if you exclude the 6 games at Showgrounds vs Swans in the local derby, then it is actually:

Showgrounds 63 games average 9,660.

Being mindful that GWS generally play the low drawing non-Vic teams in Canberra, and the high drawing Vic teams in Sydney.


Meanwhile, Gold Coast (excluding 2020/21) have an average of 13,666 from 101 games at Carrara.

Removing 9 home games against Brisbane only brings the average down to 13,640 from 92 games, so the Lions do not seem to inflate attendances (probably due to the distance of being different cities, unlike GWS and Swans who are in the same city).

 
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Just reflecting on GWS home crowds (excluding 2020/22).


Showgrounds 69 games average 10,525.
Manuka Oval 28 games average 10,409.

However if you exclude the 6 games at Showgrounds vs Swans in the local derby, then it is actually:

Showgrounds 63 games average 9,660.

Being mindful that GWS generally play the low drawing non-Vic teams in Canberra, and the high drawing Vic teams in Sydney.


Meanwhile, Gold Coast (excluding 2020/21) have an average of 13,666 from 101 games at Carrara.

Removing 9 home games against Brisbane only brings the average down to 13,640 from 92 games, so the Lions do not seem to inflate attendances (probably due to the distance of being different cities, unlike GWS and Swans who are in the same city).


Yes its tough breaking into NRL heartland.

Using GWS & the Suns any time the AFL want (games in Canberra, China) does nothing to develop a following pattern that heartland clubs take for granted (ignoring the whinges over time slots).
That you chose to ignore hometown derbies to make those numbers worse does nothing for the argument you are making.
 
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Yes its tough breaking into NRL heartland.

Using GWS & the Suns any time the AFL want (games in Canberra, China) does nothing to develop a following pattern that heartland clubs take for granted (ignoring the whinges over time slots).
That you chose to ignore hometown derbies to make those numbers worse does nothing for the argument you are making.
It does show that the Giants (read AFL) are bigger in Canberra than Western Sydney.
 
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