Preview GWS vs Essendon, Sydney Showgrounds, Sunday 24/03/2019 @ 3.20PM

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JayJ20

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#53
Hurley is a perfect example as it had nothing to do with form, it was him deciding to not spoil, not take a risk he automatically would in a regular season game. Do you really think he got chewed out for it in review?

As for the not being bothered nonsense, yeah I haven't seen anyone suggesting that. What other teams do in jlt is irrelevant, it's what our coaches decide we need to focus on practice game to practice game that counts. Maybe they got everything out of the JLT they wanted, maybe not. Thing is we don't know.
Maybe you don’t remember the start of last year well, but Hurley was playing the same way in the season proper.

Also, I’d rather trust what sides like Richmond and West Coast do than a side who hasn’t won a final in 14 years. What could half-arsing it possibly get us?

Richmond came back from 40 points down in a preseason game to win. 40 points. Why? To maintain a winning culture. It’s second nature to them.
We’d give up in the middle of the 3rd quarter when it becomes too hard.

I think we’re actually not where we hoped to be. Therefore, organising a scratch match to implement what went wrong is actually a good idea because nothing I saw indicates that we’re ready for the season.
 

sameolds33

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#54
Maybe you don’t remember the start of last year well, but Hurley was playing the same way in the season proper.

Also, I’d rather trust what sides like Richmond and West Coast do than a side who hasn’t won a final in 14 years. What could half-arsing it possibly get us?

Richmond came back from 40 points down in a preseason game to win. 40 points. Why? To maintain a winning culture. It’s second nature to them.
We’d give up in the middle of the 3rd quarter when it becomes too hard.

I think we’re actually not where we hoped to be. Therefore, organising a scratch match to implement what went wrong is actually a good idea because nothing I saw indicates that we’re ready for the season.
All teams use the pre-season games for different purposes so comparing our results with WCE and Richmond is like comparing apples with oranges. Those teams have won the comp over the last 2 years - where they are as a team and what they seek to achieve from the JLT in terms of their game plan are not the same as ours. There's no doubt we have a lot to work on but why not trust that the people who are paid to make it work can see that too rather than comparing us unfavourably with other teams' personnel and agendas?
 

BrunoV

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#55
Maybe you don’t remember the start of last year well, but Hurley was playing the same way in the season proper.

Also, I’d rather trust what sides like Richmond and West Coast do than a side who hasn’t won a final in 14 years. What could half-arsing it possibly get us?

Richmond came back from 40 points down in a preseason game to win. 40 points. Why? To maintain a winning culture. It’s second nature to them.
We’d give up in the middle of the 3rd quarter when it becomes too hard.

I think we’re actually not where we hoped to be. Therefore, organising a scratch match to implement what went wrong is actually a good idea because nothing I saw indicates that we’re ready for the season.

I dont know how not to agree with these sentiments. There is no argument I can make based on anything empirical or anything observed, etc.

I've been desperate for footy and have watched large parts of 5 or 6 non-EFC JLT matches.

West Coast and Fremantle played premiership points intensity in the first half.

Melbourne, Richmond, Sydney have hardly cruised. All have played with intensity for large parts of matches.

Hawthorn's kids have had a crack where their 3-4 time premiership guns have eased themselves into the season.

Brisbane is running quite close to capacity. St Kilda is going to hit the ground running though I query whether they're capable of doing damage before Coffield and Clarke become men. Not enough class but I would also worry about them if they get back to the basics they do well.

That's a reasonable cross sections of clubs with something to prove and the heavyweights.

I want to say that it's intolerable that we act like heavyweights but the heavyweights are not currently taking the piss. So I'd say that our problem is more an issue for the attention of psychiatrists.

The best argument we can make is " it's JLT, dont panic" but that's not an argument from an Essendon fan as much as it is an expression of faith.

In JLT 2018 there was no indication that our play had evolved from 2017 and the first 10 weeks of the season were a testament to that.

Let's not pretend that our second half of 2018 was the real Essendon, part of some well thought out plan or the result of having sacked a saboteur.

Our entire game style changed in the lead up to the Geelong game. The most important change was that we got numbers around the ball, setting up for a midfield scrap. Our scoring changed. We selected midfielders instead of teams comprised of 50% small defenders and small forwards (there was a game we selected 5 small defenders).

Fast forward to February 2019 and rewind to February 2018. All of the warning signs are there. It's very hard not to conclude that our list's opinion of itself is anything short of delusional.

If our players have been getting into fights with each other I'd had to think what would happen if they had attended training that was intense.

Edit: maybe it's not psychiatrists that are needed. Maybe we need to be subjected to SAS brainwashing techniques.
 
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sameolds33

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#56
I dont know how not to agree with these sentiments. There is no argument I can make based on anything empirical or anything observed, etc.

I've been desperate for footy and have watched large parts of 5 or 6 non-EFC JLT matches.

West Coast and Fremantle played premiership points intensity in the first half.

Melbourne, Richmond, Sydney have hardly cruised. All have played with intensity for large parts of matches.

Hawthorn's kids have had a crack where their 3-4 time premiership guns have eased themselves into the season.

Brisbane is running quite close to capacity. St Kilda is going to hit the ground running though I query whether they're capable of doing damage before Coffield and Clarke become men. Not enough class but I would also worry about them if they get back to the basics they do well.

That's a reasonable cross sections of clubs with something to prove and the heavyweights.

I want to say that it's intolerable that we act like heavyweights but the heavyweights are not currently taking the piss. So I'd say that our problem is more an issue for the attention of psychiatrists.

The best argument we can make is " it's JLT, dont panic" but that's not an argument from an Essendon fan as much as it is an expression of faith.

In JLT 2018 there was no indication that our play had evolved from 2017 and the first 10 weeks of the season were a testament to that.

Let's not pretend that our second half of 2018 was the real Essendon, part of some well thought out plan or the result of having sacked a saboteur.

Our entire game style changed in the lead up to the Geelong game. The most important change was that we got numbers around the ball, setting up for a midfield scrap. Our scoring changed. We selected midfielders instead of teams comprised of 50% small defenders and small forwards (there was a game we selected 5 small defenders).

Fast forward to February 2019 and rewind to February 2018. All of the warning signs are there. It's very hard not to conclude that our list's opinion of itself is anything short of delusional.

If our players have been getting into fights with each other I'd had to think what would happen if they had attended training that was intense.

Edit: maybe it's not psychiatrists that are needed. Maybe we need to be subjected to SAS brainwashing techniques.
I've watched a lot of the JLT too and don't disagree with your observations. My take away is that it's hard to read how teams will go in the season based on their form (and the issues they practised) in the JLT games. For example, the heavyweight teams may well have used the games to boost the mental side of their game, "see how quickly we can turn it around because we are a skillful united team and everyone knows the game plan". The developing teams (and I would include us here) may have been using it to work out plays/ combinations - with resulting skills errors. One of our issues has always been starting too fast and running out of steam by the bye. Last year we started too slowly and wasted the first part of the season. Maybe this is the year we get it right.

There is room for improvement and it's possible that you are right but there are so many variables that, in my view, there's little point in being definitive (and negative) at this stage. If the people in charge think we need a another hitout, we will have one.

What I did take from the JLT is that there are no easy games this year - equalisation is working. It's a very level playing field. Executing an effective game plan and getting lucky with injuries will make the difference this year, more so than last.
 

BrunoV

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#58
I've watched a lot of the JLT too and don't disagree with your observations. My take away is that it's hard to read how teams will go in the season based on their form (and the issues they practised) in the JLT games. For example, the heavyweight teams may well have used the games to boost the mental side of their game, "see how quickly we can turn it around because we are a skillful united team and everyone knows the game plan". The developing teams (and I would include us here) may have been using it to work out plays/ combinations - with resulting skills errors. One of our issues has always been starting too fast and running out of steam by the bye. Last year we started too slowly and wasted the first part of the season. Maybe this is the year we get it right.

There is room for improvement and it's possible that you are right but there are so many variables that, in my view, there's little point in being definitive (and negative) at this stage. If the people in charge think we need a another hitout, we will have one.

What I did take from the JLT is that there are no easy games this year - equalisation is working. It's a very level playing field. Executing an effective game plan and getting lucky with injuries will make the difference this year, more so than last.


Starting slow and fast can really only relate to physiology and I dont believe that it is a consideration for any decent side.

Everyone is looking to be at their best in September following being good enough throughout the season to make finals.

There may be explanations for why sides start slow but I dont believe that it is the same as a deliberate strategy. Injuries or team chemisty may well be factors early in a year.

Our history of fast starts has little to do with the current team given that Heppell and Zaharakis are the only mids left. Remember, the last time we started quick was 2013.

We only need to look at the teams who make finals and win premierships, particularly when it was not expected. They always start well and dickheads, like me, sit there waiting for them to fall off a cliff. It doesnt happen.

These same teams usually have patchy form in the second half of a seaso which I think can be explained by training loads (because this is the point at which training for September becomes a factor).

A team like Hawthorn managing aging stars wounded by 5 years of preliminary finals campaigns may start slow but that's literally a result of not being able to start quickly.

On the other side of the equation Sydney and Geelong started poorly and finished poorly in recent years.

Granted that not every team referred to above had amazing pre-season campaigns (which I'll concede because I don't know off the top of my head) so it's not like our performances will be capped this year.

But I can really only go on what I'm seeing from us and our competitors.
 
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sameolds33

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#59
Starting slow and fast can really only relate to physiology and I dont believe that it is a consideration for any decent side.

Everyone is looking to be at their best in September following being good enough throughout the season to make finals.

There may be explanations for why sides start slow but I dont believe that it is the same as a deliberate strategy. Injuries or team chemisty may well be factors early in a year.

Our history of fast starts has little to do with the current team given that Heppell and Zaharakis are the only mids left. Remember, the last time we started quick was 2013.

We only need to look at the teams who make finals and win premierships, particularly when it was not expected. They always start well and dickheads, like me, sit there waiting for them to fall off a cliff. It doesnt happen.

These same teams usually have patchy form in the second half of a seaso which I think can be explained by training loads (because this is the point at which training for September becomes a factor).

A team like Hawthorn managing aging stars wounded by 5 years of preliminary finals campaigns may start slow but that's literally a result of not being able to start quickly.

On the othersielde of the equation Sydney and Geelong started poorly and finished poorly.

Granted that not every team referred to above had amazing pre-season campaigns (which I'll concede because I don't know off the top of my head) so it's not like our performances will be capped this year.

But I can really only go on what I'm seeing from us and our competitors.
So we're agreed?!
 

DERO

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#61
Mostly but not in so far as we are doing anything to combat slow and fast starts from any other year.

We started slow last year, for example, because we selected the wrong teams and played the wrong game style.
We were very poor defensively and the damage had been done by the time we got it right.

The team started breaking records for pressure acts, which translates to wins.
 

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JayJ20

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#62
All teams use the pre-season games for different purposes so comparing our results with WCE and Richmond is like comparing apples with oranges. Those teams have won the comp over the last 2 years - where they are as a team and what they seek to achieve from the JLT in terms of their game plan are not the same as ours. There's no doubt we have a lot to work on but why not trust that the people who are paid to make it work can see that too rather than comparing us unfavourably with other teams' personnel and agendas?
I could honestly point to one fact. We haven't won a final in 14 years.
Our preparation is unfavourable to other teams because it does not yield the same result. The people who are paid to make it work at Essendon don't make it work. Let's be honest here.

How is it that teams like Richmond and West Coast are in better condition when they've had almost one month less preseason than us?
Do you honestly think half-arsing it is the best way to prepare for a team that struggles with consistency? Consistent effort is how you build a winning culture. Start with the small achievements like JLT. Build through the year.

I remember last year, people were banging on about "oh no gastro outbreak is the reason". I could already see that something was very wrong. Two weeks ago, it was "oh no it's 38 degrees, that's the reason". We're in better condition than last year, but still not good enough.

If we were serious about atoning for 2018, we'd be in pristine condition right now. Which makes me believe that it's actually not "a part of the plan" like some people like to think. I think the coaches recognise that we're not where we want to be, which again makes B4L's scratch match idea a good one. My view is that our players pick and choose when they want to play and obviously nothing has changed. There's already a pattern of doing nothing in the 2nd and 3rd before going all out in the last to try and steal the game.
 

sameolds33

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#63
We were very poor defensively and the damage had been done by the time we got it right.

The team started breaking records for pressure acts, which translates to wins.
Agree. Defensive pressure is however not something that is a feature of JLT because of fear of injuries. Gleeson and Zack were both injured last pre-season and that set our season back immeasurably. This year we're again starting behind the 8 ball defensively, with a new defensive coach and no BJ and Hooker. It's going to be leaky in the first few games I think. But I'd hope for an quicker improvement than last year. Francis and Ridley will need to keep on improving and Hurley and McKenna will need to step it up sooner rather than later.
 

sameolds33

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#64
I could honestly point to one fact. We haven't won a final in 14 years.
Our preparation is unfavourable to other teams because it does not yield the same result. The people who are paid to make it work at Essendon don't make it work. Let's be honest here.

How is it that teams like Richmond and West Coast are in better condition when they've had almost one month less preseason than us?
Do you honestly think half-arsing it is the best way to prepare for a team that struggles with consistency? Consistent effort is how you build a winning culture. Start with the small achievements like JLT. Build through the year.

I remember last year, people were banging on about "oh no gastro outbreak is the reason". I could already see that something was very wrong. Two weeks ago, it was "oh no it's 38 degrees, that's the reason". We're in better condition than last year, but still not good enough.

If we were serious about atoning for 2018, we'd be in pristine condition right now. Which makes me believe that it's actually not "a part of the plan" like some people like to think. I think the coaches recognise that we're not where we want to be, which again makes B4L's scratch match idea a good one. My view is that our players pick and choose when they want to play and obviously nothing has changed. There's already a pattern of doing nothing in the 2nd and 3rd before going all out in the last to try and steal the game.
I think the lack of success for the last 14 years is irrelevant in terms of form and structure. It is not a predictor. The only possible implication of "the last 14 years" is one of lack of self-belief. Success breeds success; a successful team goes further because the team has more confidence, less self doubt.
 

JayJ20

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#65
I think the lack of success for the last 14 years is irrelevant in terms of form and structure. It is not a predictor. The only possible implication of "the last 14 years" is one of lack of self-belief. Success breeds success; a successful team goes further because the team has more confidence, less self doubt.
You’re right. It’s not a predictor. You asked why I’m looking to other teams instead of trusting our own. Unless the team proves themselves, I can’t assume there is a change without evidence.

I see no evidence of change so I’m going to assume nothing changed. We’re still deficient in the midfield. We’re still weak in contests. We still pick and choose when we want to play.

I hope we use the remainder of the off season wisely and learn from our mistakes.
 

eDPS

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#66
It’s a long year, Richmond where the premiership favourites last year until the 2nd last game of the year where they didn’t show up

Even if we lose round 1, even if we are just scrapping around the 8 by the midway point it by no means means we have wasted a season, as much as it can be important to be at your best come Round 1 there is only one game that trually matters the last few grand finalists have proven it can come about in unexpected ways.

Things don’t need to change straight away, some players can improve as the year goes on, injuries can occur, JLT form is completely irrelevant in September.
 

sameolds33

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#68
You’re right. It’s not a predictor. You asked why I’m looking to other teams instead of trusting our own. Unless the team proves themselves, I can’t assume there is a change without evidence.

I see no evidence of change so I’m going to assume nothing changed. We’re still deficient in the midfield. We’re still weak in contests. We still pick and choose when we want to play.

I hope we use the remainder of the off season wisely and learn from our mistakes.
What DPS said. Not seeing improvement in the preseason doesn't mean you need to write off the whole season.
 

DERO

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#69
It’s a long year, Richmond where the premiership favourites last year until the 2nd last game of the year where they didn’t show up

Even if we lose round 1, even if we are just scrapping around the 8 by the midway point it by no means means we have wasted a season, as much as it can be important to be at your best come Round 1 there is only one game that trually matters the last few grand finalists have proven it can come about in unexpected ways.

Things don’t need to change straight away, some players can improve as the year goes on, injuries can occur, JLT form is completely irrelevant in September.
OEDIPUS
 

JayJ20

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#70
What DPS said. Not seeing improvement in the preseason doesn't mean you need to write off the whole season.
I didn't write off the whole season. Constructive criticism doesn't mean I'm writing the season off. B4L said that we don't look ready for the season. The solution was a scratch match. Someone disagreed. I agreed with B4L. I don't think JLT went as planned. I'm happy to be proven wrong, but I have my doubts.

Depends on what you see as improvement. Sometimes, you can see improvement even if the result is not as spectacular. Stringer and Walla are in great form right now. They may not be kicking bags, but you can see signs of improvement. That's what I hoped to see from a structural/workrate perspective, particularly physicality and defensiveness (considering that's what the club have been repeating all off-season). Saw none of that. Our team chemistry is also very off. Majority of our goals are coming from defence. That's not a good sign.

Anyway, I hope they get up for round 2 against St Kilda. Not worried about round 1.
 

sameolds33

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#71
I didn't write off the whole season. Constructive criticism doesn't mean I'm writing the season off. B4L said that we don't look ready for the season. The solution was a scratch match. Someone disagreed. I agreed with B4L. I don't think JLT went as planned. I'm happy to be proven wrong, but I have my doubts.

Depends on what you see as improvement. Sometimes, you can see improvement even if the result is not as spectacular. Stringer and Walla are in great form right now. They may not be kicking bags, but you can see signs of improvement. That's what I hoped to see from a structural/workrate perspective, particularly physicality and defensiveness (considering that's what the club have been repeating all off-season). Saw none of that. Our team chemistry is also very off. Majority of our goals are coming from defence. That's not a good sign.

Anyway, I hope they get up for round 2 against St Kilda. Not worried about round 1.
yeah, me too and if not round 2 then round 3. That's the thing about hope.
 

BrunoV

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#72
Agree. Defensive pressure is however not something that is a feature of JLT because of fear of injuries. Gleeson and Zack were both injured last pre-season and that set our season back immeasurably. This year we're again starting behind the 8 ball defensively, with a new defensive coach and no BJ and Hooker. It's going to be leaky in the first few games I think. But I'd hope for an quicker improvement than last year. Francis and Ridley will need to keep on improving and Hurley and McKenna will need to step it up sooner rather than later.


The defensive acts and defensive pressure that improved in the second half of 2018 had almost nothing to do with the defenders. The defenders were already holding the thing together in the first 10 weeks.

It's all about limiting the exposure of the defence in the middle of the ground. All things being equal very few defenders in the league can stop forwards if there is no pressure on the ball as it enters defensive 50.
 
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#74
Depends on what you see as improvement. Sometimes, you can see improvement even if the result is not as spectacular. Stringer and Walla are in great form right now. They may not be kicking bags, but you can see signs of improvement. That's what I hoped to see from a structural/workrate perspective, particularly physicality and defensiveness (considering that's what the club have been repeating all off-season). Saw none of that. Our team chemistry is also very off. Majority of our goals are coming from defence. That's not a good sign.

Anyway, I hope they get up for round 2 against St Kilda. Not worried about round 1.
That's what I'm concerned about seems we are doing the reverse forward press like you said all our scores were from the defence which is not good need to get back to applying pressure in the forward half for the ground.

It's almost like we are happy to lose centre clearances and force the turn over in our back half so we can sling shot forward to score.
 
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sameolds33

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#75
The defensive acts and defensive pressure that improved in the second half of 2018 had almost nothing to do with the defenders. The defenders were already holding the thing together in the first 10 weeks.

It's all about limiting the exposure of the defence in the middle of the ground. All things being equal very few defenders in the league can stop forwards if there is no pressure on the ball as it enters defensive 50.
Agree with what you say about the improvement in the 2nd half of last year.

What I meant by "defensive pressure" in the JLT games was my view that that others were saying were half-hearted efforts by our defenders was more a lack of intensity given it was a JLT game and there was no need to stop a goal at any cost. And I'd disagree about the defenders holding things together in the first 10 weeks of last season. Sure, it wasn't their fault the ball kept ending up there but the game plan - with Hurley kicking it out to the right wing on repeat - was a definite defence problem.
 
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