Review Hamish 2021

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Mutineer said:
I don't know how much NAB League you watch but it don't come much more congested than that at AFL level, it's virtually a rolling scrum and Neddy played a lot of midfield partnering Sam Walsh. You were talking a player with the grand total of 8 AFL games when you made that statement...I think you have unreal expectations from someone just starting their AFL journey especially if you watched Neddy's SANFL games in 2019, no problems there.
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Sure, but history is full of examples of kids good at NAB or SANFL level not being able to go on with it at AFL level.

And let's be honest, McHenry had shown nothing in his 8 AFL games. Not even glimpses other than effort.

Playing as a forward, zero goals, even zero goal assists.

Let's be careful about calling him an AFL player just yet. But the signs are good that these new rules might benefit players like him. He struggled having two or three blokes closing him down immediately in the previous team defence dominated game.

Even Tex kicked 5 without 2 or 3 getting back and hanging off him. He seemed 5 years younger. Let's hope it's real and the rule changes continue to open the game up.

As I said before I reckon Jones could also benefit hugely from the more open game this year.
 
mattymac said:
Sure, but history is full of examples of kids good at NAB or SANFL level not being able to go on with it at AFL level.

And let's be honest, McHenry had shown nothing in his 8 AFL games. Not even glimpses other than effort.

Playing as a forward, zero goals, even zero goal assists.

Let's be careful about calling him an AFL player just yet. But the signs are good that these new rules might benefit players like him. He struggled having two or three blokes closing him down immediately in the previous team defence dominated game.

Even Tex kicked 5 without 2 or 3 getting back and hanging off him. He seemed 5 years younger. Let's hope it's real and the rule changes continue to open the game up.

As I said before I reckon Jones could also benefit hugely from the more open game this year.
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There's a thread I'll gladly visit if I'm wrong, but it maybe you that will be visiting that particular thread I'm pretty confident about, and for the record I'm not buying your analysis of the new rules specifically helping Neddy's game...Experience at AFL level is all that Neddy's ever been lacking.
 
Mutineer said:
There's a thread I'll gladly visit if I'm wrong, but it maybe you that will be visiting that particular thread I'm pretty confident about, and for the record I'm not buying your analysis of the new rules specifically helping Neddy's game...Experience at AFL level is all that Neddy's ever been lacking.
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Ok sure. The new open free flowing game had no effect. 8 games of experience was the game changer.

Playing his best game after not playing AFL for 6 months is further evidence that AFL experience is all he needed. Got it.
 

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mattymac said:
Ok sure. The new open free flowing game had no effect. 8 games of experience was the game changer.

Playing his best game after not playing AFL for 6 months is further evidence that AFL experience is all he needed. Got it.
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The game changer is he finally has his body right after experiencing severe back spasms after his car accident, hence the fact he has mentioned several times the fitness/conditioning department have been able to work on strengthening him through the core. Then Covid struck last year, hardly the time for a developing player playing in a team getting flogged for most of the season. The proof of the pudding will be in the eating.

 
Mutineer said:
The game changer is he finally has his body right after experiencing severe back spasms after his car accident, hence the fact he has mentioned several times the fitness/conditioning department have been able to work on strengthening him through the core. Then Covid struck last year, hardly the time for a developing player playing in a team getting flogged for most of the season. The proof of the pudding will be in the eating.

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That's all good. I still think his main problem was trying to do too much in tight and inevitably getting swarmed in the old game.

I think Jones had very similar issues.

In the new game there is less to do, less to think through, because it is far more open.

Man on the mark has to stand planted like a tree and you get 1 or 2 seconds to roll around. It moves so much quicker. Opens everything up.

If you take that massive drawback in congestion out of both their games they should be able to contribute much better.
 
FWIW I also think there are massive opportunities laying wide open for the coaches and teams that adapt fastest to these new rules.
 
Mutineer said:
The game changer is he finally has his body right after experiencing severe back spasms after his car accident, hence the fact he has mentioned several times the fitness/conditioning department have been able to work on strengthening him through the core. Then Covid struck last year, hardly the time for a developing player playing in a team getting flogged for most of the season. The proof of the pudding will be in the eating.

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Taken dangers boat sponsorship by the looks.
 
Scorpus said:
And I'll make my point clearer with this comparison

Since 2016

Milera - 62 games
Doedee - 30 games
Gallucci - 27 games
Fogarty - 24 games
Jones - 23 games
McAsey - 10 games
McHenry - 8 games

Total - 184 games

Lyons - 20 games the year we trade him
Henderson - 9 games the year we delist him
Van Berlo - 3 games in his final year
Hampton - 12 games total
Menzel - 4 games total
Beech - 3 games total
Gibson - 5 games total
Cheney - 8 games in year we delist him
Douglas - 9 games in year we delist him
Greenwood - 14 games in year we trade him after refusing to match his contract demands
Keath - 18 games in year we trade him after refusing to match his contract demands
Ellis-Yolmen - 10 games in year we let him walk as a free agent
Jacobs - 5 games in year we let him walk
Otten - 3 games in his final year
Jenkins - 11 games in the year we trade him
Gibbs - 3 games in year he retires
Crocker - 7 games then delisted
Hartigan - 12 games in the year we let him walk as a FA
Brad Crouch - 12 games in the year we push him out the door
Atkins - 4 games in the year we him walk as a FA
Betts - 21 games in year we sent him to Carlton

Total - 193 games

We have spent more games on players that we immediately got rid of than we have on long term first round draft pick prospects, since 2016

Seems like serious resource mismanagement to spend more games on players we deem aren't good enough, than on players someone at our club has already deemed to be AFL quality
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You've said it all mate.

This is damning - and hopefully it is no longer the preferred method.
 
How is it we had a Rioli in our own backyard and didn't even draft him? Who takes responsibility for that?
I know he was a sphere of a man when he was first eligible to be drafted but that's where one of biggest skill of recruiting comes in - foresight.
And yeah sure he comes with some baggage find me a Rioli that doesn't.
We could've got him for a free hit and instead he's a premiership player for another team.
 
Mutineer just watched on the couch. Suggest you watch the first 10 minutes.

The game has changed. And that's good news for young players. They agree with me.

They don't need to work up to being masters of the maul anymore. They can display their skills without being shut down like in previous years.
 
Ozzie said:
There's only one person to blame for our list being this poor. Steven ******* TRIGG. He had the chance to trade Yippett to the Lions. Said no, wanted a higher pick. 1 good player and 1 decent pick were offered. No he was adamant. Next year pondscum walked for nothing. Sanctions applied. Sydney tried to trade us 2 players, rejected by the DIMWIT in VFL House. So we lost 2 players in a trade and then get sanctioned for 4 more. SIX ******* players gone just like that. To make matters worse he then bowed down and sacked Rendell for a true statement taken way out of context to appease Dimwit's lacky who reported a PRIVATE conversation. Piss ******* weak.
Now we have a list of kids and poor quality seniors. DIMWIT said, "I looked at the Crows list and they can whether it." Yeah sure we we could.

Now we had a group of posters on here who constantly blame anyone and everyone for anything that goes wrong. I bet they loved Trigg and Dimwit in the day.
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Amen

ABAB said:
We got M.Crouch, Cameron and Laird who easily covers those 1st and 2nd rounders we lost.
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No. Return your stopwatch to the manufacturer.

ABAB said:
If we had a list like Carlton we wouldn't have played in finals and made a Grand Final after the draft sanctions with both M.Crouch, Laird and Cameron all playing important roles.
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2 x 1st rounders, 2 x 2nd rounders, plus whatever we got for Tippett. The guys you’re talking about, they should be the extras.
 
ABAB said:
If we had a list like Carlton we wouldn't have played in finals and made a Grand Final after the draft sanctions with both M.Crouch, Laird and Cameron all playing important roles.
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You realise we wouldn't need to give up one of those players?

We should have had our existing list, plus 3-4 more first rounders.

That is arguably the difference between being a contender, and being a premier.
 
King Elvis said:
You realise we wouldn't need to give up one of those players?

We should have had our existing list, plus 3-4 more first rounders.

That is arguably the difference between being a contender, and being a premier.
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The argument is whether these 4 1st and 2nd rounders would have developed into better players because M.Crouch, Laird and Cameron had the opportunity since these players weren't there.....doubtful as history show it's very rare to get more than 4 gun players in consecutive draft due to opportunity and list turnovers.
 

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Deaneus! said:
Amen



No. Return your stopwatch to the manufacturer.



2 x 1st rounders, 2 x 2nd rounders, plus whatever we got for Tippett. The guys you’re talking about, they should be the extras.
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4 additional high pick but would they have end up better than M.Crouch, Cameron and Laird who got the opportunity to develop since these 4 higher pick players weren't there.
 
ABAB said:
4 additional high pick but would they have end up better than M.Crouch, Cameron and Laird who got the opportunity to develop since these 4 higher pick players weren't there.
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they just have to better than the four worst players on the list.
 
Deaneus! said:
they just have to better than the four worst players on the list.
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If that's the case they would have been delisted 2 years later, hence my argument that the draft sanction didn't caused our current poor list but the very poorly planned list transition after the CM review which resulted in a very hard list cut to the playing list and senior coaches is the cause.
 
I went back and checked on the players available in those missing draft years. The trade with the Lions was Pick 12 and pick 30. Trigg wanted pick 8 and Jarad Polac. So HE rejected it. Pick 8 was Billy Longer. Pick 12 was Sam Docherty now with Carlton. Pick 30 was Elliot Yeo. All spuds according to Abab.
Following year we surrendered picks 20 and 54. Brodie Grundy taken at pick 18 was our first choice but he gone. Kennedy and Broomhead went at 19 and 20. Crows went on record saying Tim O'Brien still with Hawthorn was next in line after Grundy. Pick 54 was either Martin Gleeson with the Bombers or Nick Graham. Both played for years. More spuds hey Abab?
Next year we would have had pick 8 and pick 28. Again the Crows went on record saying their pick was to be Patrick Cripps who went at 13 to Carlton. The four players before that pick were Daniel McStay, Zach Merrett, Sean Lemmens, Lewis Taylor at 28 Rory Lobb at 29. We had the choice still to trade or keep Bernie Vince. Trade him we get Matt Crouch. More spuds hey ABAB?
Would have still drafted Laird and Cameron in their rookie drafts.
Shows your logic is flawed
 
Ozzie said:
I went back and checked on the players available in those missing draft years. The trade with the Lions was Pick 12 and pick 30. Trigg wanted pick 8 and Jarad Polac. So HE rejected it. Pick 8 was Billy Longer. Pick 12 was Sam Docherty now with Carlton. Pick 30 was Elliot Yeo. All spuds according to Abab.
Following year we surrendered picks 20 and 54. Brodie Grundy taken at pick 18 was our first choice but he gone. Kennedy and Broomhead went at 19 and 20. Crows went on record saying Tim O'Brien still with Hawthorn was next in line after Grundy. Pick 54 was either Martin Gleeson with the Bombers or Nick Graham. Both played for years. More spuds hey Abab?
Next year we would have had pick 8 and pick 28. Again the Crows went on record saying their pick was to be Patrick Cripps who went at 13 to Carlton. The four players before that pick were Daniel McStay, Zach Merrett, Sean Lemmens, Lewis Taylor at 28 Rory Lobb at 29. We had the choice still to trade or keep Bernie Vince. Trade him we get Matt Crouch. More spuds hey ABAB?
Would have still drafted Laird and Cameron in their rookie drafts.
Shows your logic is flawed
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No, I said there is no guarantee the players in the early picks would be better than the late picks and history show you don't get more than 4 gun players in consecutive draft years due to opportunity from list management, hence the draft sanction didn't affect how poor our current list is because we played finals and a Grand Final with 5 years of the draft sanction and had what the industry classify as a very strong list then.

Hindsight is great isn't it, so would O'Brien and Cripps developed into players better than Cameron/Laird/M.Crouch, likely Cripps would but would he be as an elite players as he is now or just as good as Laird??
 
ABAB said:
No, I said there is no guarantee the players in the early picks would be better than the late picks and history show you don't get more than 4 gun players in consecutive draft years due to opportunity from list management, hence the draft sanction didn't affect how poor our current list is because we played finals and a Grand Final with 5 years of the draft sanction and had what the industry classify as a very strong list then.

Hindsight is great isn't it, so would O'Brien and Cripps developed into players better than Cameron/Laird/M.Crouch, likely Cripps would but would he be as an elite players as he is now or just as good as Laird??
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This just proves you're a football lightweight. We still would have picked up Crouch Laird and Cameron on top of the other 4.
Cripps p****s all over Laird.
 
Ozzie said:
This just proves you're a football lightweight. We still would have picked up Crouch Laird and Cameron on top of the other 4.
Cripps p****s all over Laird.
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Which is my point, would these players have developed into the players are now so your initial argument that the draft sanction caused our poor list right now is incorrect because we developed one of the best list in the AFL post the draft sanction, hence played in finals and a Grand Final. The list turnover post CM is what has caused the current state of the list and then 2020* happened straight after the massive list turnover and new coach setting the list development back 8-10 months behind, hence why we only started showing form late in the season.
 
ABAB said:
Which is my point, would these players have developed into the players are now so your initial argument that the draft sanction caused our poor list right now is incorrect because we developed one of the best list in the AFL post the draft sanction, hence played in finals and a Grand Final. The list turnover post CM is what has caused the current state of the list and then 2020* happened straight after the massive list turnover and new coach setting the list development back 8-10 months behind, hence why we only started showing form late in the season.
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Look at what they have done since being drafted.They're all players as well as the 3 you go on about. We were lucky to weather the crap place we found ourselves in and is the main reason we have such a young list today. The CM stuff is used as an excuse by players who left for more money or simply weren't up to the standard required, eg. Curtley Hampton. Simple as that. You're are hung up on our luck in finding raw gems late in the draft or the rookie draft. Atkins was pick 81 for goodness sake. Wake up and think about losing 4 top draft picks and 2 for the player and its long term effect on a playing list. Far more damaging than some pseudo camp. Players forgot about that quickly. The cleanout was neccessary, JJ. Betts were cooked and his wife wanted back in Melbourne, both can't get a gig at the moment. Yes JJ played a game last week and got thrashed. The others wanted better deals. Means we have a very young list. Accept it. Those 6 picks are the missing bracket between the senior and the young.
 
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Ozzie said:
Look at what they have done since being drafted.They're all players as well as the 3 you go on about. We were lucky to weather the crap place we found ourselves in and is the main reason we have such a young list today. The CM stuff is used as an excuse by players who left for more money or simply weren't up to the standard required, eg. Curtley Hampton. Simple as that. You're are hung up on our luck in finding raw gems late in the draft or the rookie draft. Atkins was pick 81 for goodness sake. Wake up and think about losing 4 top draft picks and 2 for the player and its long term effect on a playing list. Far more damaging than some pseudo camp. Players forgot about that quickly. The cleanout was neccessary, JJ. Betts were cooked and his wife wanted back in Melbourne, both can't get a gig at the moment. Yes JJ played a game last week and got thrashed. The others wanted better deals. Means we have a very young list. Accept it. Those 6 picks are the missing bracket between the senior and the young.
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Agree to a certain point but if those 6 players were good, we would have traded picks and or fringe players. It’s a slippery slope just looking at it like that. We have a young list but we’re are missing those 23 to 27 year olds to help develop the young guys. We have old or young and injuries to our old players will hurt badly and will make us fall quickly. That’s were those 6 players you mentioned would have helped
 
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