Handball Chain errors

[Spluff]

naaa man, what I am talking about is that Dimma has NFI and continues down this path and we cant deliver. The f***ing bleeding obvious is that we made errors and the other bleeding obvious is that we will forever be a team that is susceptible to making these errors and 7 years on this muppet still uses it at as an excuse.

I don't see how it's an excuse, it's clearly an indictment on the team and the coaching staff that we're literally handballing straight to the opposition 10+ times a game.

 

[Tiger71]

listen dude...i understand how much of an apologist you are and our coach according to you is the next big thing in football coaching but listen up...i dont think its the coaches instructions to players to not hit a target or hand ball the ball to a bloke under pressure, I do think our coach has NFI and keeps on relying on this and it continuously breaks down when put to the pressure test. Like the real pressure test, not when we are playing a dead rubber or when we are playing a top line team that just happens to be resting top players etc in readiness for the end of the year and making us look good. That shit has been revealed 3 times in a row over the last 3 years...

Now dude, do not put labels on me. I know if anyone disagree's with he masses he is rated as a apologist but if you actually had any idea, you would know my view on Hardwick that I have posted many, many times. You state the coach has NFI because he relies on "this" WTF is "this". It's your thread dude, so tell us, what is wrong with Hardwicks game plan ?

You mention the pressure tests and finals failures. Now we have a coach who has made 7 changes to the 22 to fix exactly what you are bleating about and by round 2 you were already foaming at the mouth.

Myself. I am happy to give the club till round 12 to see if they can address where we fail. So dude, if you translate that into me sucking Hardwicks dick and I am a fanboi, you need your ****ing head read.

 

[exceptional design]

Turn overs are inevitable in our game. When we have the ball, causing turnovers is the opposition priority.

Each disposal has a risk of turnover. The more disposals you have, the higher the risk.
Put disposals to congested parts of the ground, and the risk increases as accuracy needs to be higher. Disposals to uncongested parts of the ground decreases risk.

We have a high possession, low meters gained per disposal game plan. So not only do we have more risk of turnovers, we do it in congested parts of the ground. When we do turn it over, we haven't gained much, so it comes back further in less time than what we moved it.

At stoppages, we are more closely positioned than the opposition. If the ball gets to outside, teams spread faster, look to uncongested parts, with less risk of turnover. Our handballs chains are to closely positioned players, rather than to a player in relative space.
Cousins was the best I ever saw at handball to a player in space. We don't do this any more, because we don't train it.

Our game plan is very defensively orientated. It looks like the objective is to reduce turnovers. But it just increases risk and therefore turnover..
Our turnover rate is to be expected given the game plan. The game plan, closely positioned players, lack of spread quickly to uncongested parts is the problem.

Fix the game plan, and we fix turnover.

 

[CoggaRules]

Now dude, do not put labels on me. I know if anyone disagree's with he masses he is rated as a apologist but if you actually had any idea, you would know my view on Hardwick that I have posted many, many times. You state the coach has NFI because he relies on "this" WTF is "this". It's your thread dude, so tell us, what is wrong with Hardwicks game plan ?

You mention the pressure tests and finals failures. Now we have a coach who has made 7 changes to the 22 to fix exactly what you are bleating about and by round 2 you were already foaming at the mouth.

Myself. I am happy to give the club till round 12 to see if they can address where we fail. So dude, if you translate that into me sucking Hardwicks dick and I am a fanboi, you need your ******* head read.

cant do that man because i struggle to see it. Thats the problem.. As for the 7 changes to the 22, kinda thought 4 or even 5 of them are forced and the other 3 are the number 1 draft picks over the last 3 years..now go back to sleep dude..you really dont understand how our coach contradicts what he says one week the week after.

 

[Tiger71]

Turn overs are inevitable in our game. When we don't have the ball, causing turnovers is the opposition priority.

Each disposal has a risk of turnover. The more disposals you have, the higher the risk.
Put disposals to congested parts of the ground, and the risk increases as accuracy needs to be higher. Disposals to uncongested parts of the ground decreases risk.

We have a high possession, low meters gained per disposal game plan. So not only do we have more risk of turnovers, we do it in congested parts of the ground. When we do turn it over, we haven't gained much, so it comes back further in less time than what we moved it.

At stoppages, we are more closely positioned than the opposition. If the ball gets to outside, teams spread faster, look to uncongested parts, with less risk of turnover. Our handballs chains are to closely positioned players, rather than to a player in relative space.
Cousins was the best I ever saw at handball to a player in space. We don't do this any more, because we train it.

Our game plan is very defensively orientated. It looks like the objective is to reduce turnovers. But it just increases risk and therefore turnover..
Our turnover rate is to be expected given the game plan. The game plan, closley positioned players, lack of spread quickly to uncongested parts quickly is the problem.

Fix the game plan, and we fix turnover.

Actually, if you are speaking of the 3 game sample we have we have have focused offence over defense and our turn over on transition is what is putting our team to the sword. last year after the norf game, we had a game plan, as you say, protected the turn over and by the end of the year we were the second or third best side in minimizing turn overs...this year, there has been a fundamental shift.

Our spread out of the contest is not the issue IMO. its basic skill errors that are killing us. Perfect example was Saturday, we still won the clearance and outside ball, we even managed to manufacture 15 inside 50 marks, we had 15, 99% of sides who managed 15 marks in a opposition forward 50 win the game....so its not game plan imo but player skill level.

There are times in all games we have had when we have transitioned the ball and ripped teams a part for periods. At the crows game, we managed to get two periods where we scored 3-4 goals in a row. Our problem becomes when we turn it over by missing a basic corridor kick, it becomes contagious and infects the whole side. We are then horrendously out of position and are scored easily against.

You could have the best game plan in the world but if you cant execute a basic hand ball or kick your are ****ed. The one positive our ratio for hand ball to kick was something obscene like 3 to 1 handballs v kicks by half time. We managed to address that in part in the 3rd and 4th and normalise it out somewhat but the damage was already done.

 

[Tiger71]

cant do that man because i struggle to see it. Thats the problem.. As for the 7 changes to the 22, kinda thought 4 or even 5 of them are forced and the other 3 are the number 1 draft picks over the last 3 years..now go back to sleep dude..you really dont understand how our coach contradicts what he says one week the week after.

Sorry man, i am actually at work, so cant sleep late mornings, lucky you can

You said it perfectly though, you just struggle to see whats wrong, yet you rage as what you think is spin, the coach is actually stating a fact. Anyway, what time are the wiggles on dude ?

 

[CoggaRules]

Sorry man, i am actually at work, so cant sleep late mornings, lucky you can

You said it perfectly though, you just struggle to see whats wrong, yet you rage as what you think is spin, the coach is actually stating a fact. Anyway, what time are the wiggles on dude ?

hmm...so when you hve a chance can you ask the coach who states facts what he meant by we missed a Ben Griffiths type, when he dropped him and it wasnt our structure that lets us down but our hanball errors that did. Then when you have got that answer from him, ask him why he suggests we are blooding new players because we need to school them so we can go deep into September, and when if Lids, Maric, Grimes, Batch and Conca and Yarran for that matter, were available there is no f****ing way he wouldnt pick them...I mean you really have NFI how he plays you and others for fools do you? Oh and jsut for kicks and a few laughs now that he comes out and says that hamma is really offering us a lot more than he did, because he can take a couple of marks now, ask him if he will be at tigerland next year after his last year of his contract is completed this year. Go on see what our esteemed coach has to say about that

 

[Tiger71]

hmm...so when you hve a chance can you ask the coach who states facts what he meant by we missed a Ben Griffiths type, when he dropped him and it wasnt our structure that lets us down but our hanball errors that did. Then when you have got that answer from him, ask him why he suggests we are blooding new players because we need to school them so we can go deep into September, and when if Lids, Maric, Grimes, Batch and Conca and Yarran for that matter, were available there is no f****ing way he wouldnt pick them...I mean you really have NFI how he plays you and others for fools do you?

Mate, if anyone is a fool then its you. Also, ease up on just attacking blokes if they think diffrently to you, just makes you come off as a nut lol.

Now to answer your point. You obviously have hart burn as you believed our premiership window was open, when it clearly was not. obviously after our 3rd final loss things had to change. Everyone was typing postings with spittle at the cornor of there mouths crying for change. Now our coach has decided to change it up and yet we still have those that rage.

Now I have asked Damien your questions and ill copy paste his response.

"Hardwick said the club had learnt valuable lessons in recent years and would maintain its faith in youngsters such as Corey Ellis, Ben Lennon and Daniel Rioli.

“We are going to be a little bit brave with our decision making and with selection in match committee and whilst we may have to take a little bit of heartburn, I certainly think in weeks to come you will see us move forward,”

Now obviously we have not been able to play Lids, Maric, Grimes, Conca and Yarran as they have been injured so instead of picking Batch a easy out and other experienced players like morris and hunt, both who have only played 1 game out of 3 he has played the future and yet you rage ? He is trying something diffrent to switch up the 22 who has failed 3 times to something with a different skill set and again you rage.

Then you switch to "OMG if lids and others were ok they would go straight in, OMG fool 101". Any idiot would know that if Lids was available he would be straight in as he is one of our best players but he let Maric play VFL last week. if he would do what you accuse with your assumptions, Maric would have played last week against Jacobs and hammer would have been out.

Bottom line, we have been shit. I am not saying we are have not BUT it is only round 3. Do me a favor cogga. Look at your posts this time last year, you are just history repeating imo.

 

[CoggaRules]

"Hardwick said the club had learnt valuable lessons in recent years and would maintain its faith in youngsters such as Corey Ellis, Ben Lennon and Daniel Rioli.

“We are going to be a little bit brave with our decision making and with selection in match committee and whilst we may have to take a little bit of heartburn, I certainly think in weeks to come you will see us move forward,”

Now obviously we have not been able to play Lids, Maric, Grimes, Conca and Yarran as they have been injured so instead of picking Batch a easy out and other experienced players like morris and hunt, both who have only played 1 game out of 3 he has played the future and yet you rage ? He is trying something diffrent to switch up the 22 who has failed 3 times to something with a different skill set and again you rage.

So instead of picking experienced players like Morris and Hunt? Bwaaahaaaaa...sheeeeeeesh...ok you win dude...lmaoooo FFS i rest my case.

 

[Tiger71]

So instead of picking experienced players like Morris and Hunt? Bwaaahaaaaa...sheeeeeeesh...ok you win dude...lmaoooo FFS i rest my case.

How you translate experienced as that means good is beyond me lol. Morris and Hunt have played more games then rioli, manadue,short,ellis etc but you know that......haha. You are right though rest your case dude, its better that you do lol

 

[exceptional design]

Actually, if you are speaking of the 3 game sample we have we have have focused offence over defense and our turn over on transition is what is putting our team to the sword. last year after the norf game, we had a game plan, as you say, protected the turn over and by the end of the year we were the second or third best side in minimizing turn overs...this year, there has been a fundamental shift.

Our spread out of the contest is not the issue IMO. its basic skill errors that are killing us. Perfect example was Saturday, we still won the clearance and outside ball, we even managed to manufacture 15 inside 50 marks, we had 15, 99% of sides who managed 15 marks in a opposition forward 50 win the game....so its not game plan imo but player skill level.

There are times in all games we have had when we have transitioned the ball and ripped teams a part for periods. At the crows game, we managed to get two periods where we scored 3-4 goals in a row. Our problem becomes when we turn it over by missing a basic corridor kick, it becomes contagious and infects the whole side. We are then horrendously out of position and are scored easily against.

You could have the best game plan in the world but if you cant execute a basic hand ball or kick your are stuffed. The one positive our ratio for hand ball to kick was something obscene like 3 to 1 handballs v kicks by half time. We managed to address that in part in the 3rd and 4th and normalise it out somewhat but the damage was already done.

Saturday was definitely a shift. I don't think the previous 2 weeks showed much shift.
If we were the 2nd or 3rd best at minimising turnovers last year, why are making turnovers this year? Has the team suddenly lost skill in 8 months? Did we play the same skilful players as last year that can execute under AFL pressure?

Yes utterly strange how you can have that many forward 50 marks, and not kick goals. That would be another problem to analyse.
And yes we do look good, when we move the ball further, faster, to uncongested parts. But we don't do it enough. Why is that? Is it dumb players, is it lack of training, is it training on something different.

But we had 326 disposals to 285, but they had 57 inside 50's to 53.
So where did our disposals advantage go to, because they certainly were not to our inside 50.
So they must have been up the ground or in the back line, and they must not of gone very far. And if they are not going very far, then we are moving it too slowly with high risk, high disposal game plans, to closely positioned players, not in un congested parts of the ground.

 

[CoggaRules]

How you translate experienced as that means good is beyond me lol. Morris and Hunt have played more games then rioli, manadue,short,ellis etc but you know that......haha. You are right though rest your case dude, its better that you do lol

I translate expereinced as a tiger metaphor for half arsed plodders one of which had half a dozen kicked on him the week before, one year after "hand picking" him and signing him up, just like we hand picked Hamma etc...BTW, what gets me is this, if we are spitting the dummy out after 3 rounds, why didnt he come out before the season started and made it clear that we are going to take a few back steps and not to worry because we will be playing in September? I mean, he didnt say that after R1, kept quiet after R2 and now in R3 he felt he needed to alert the tiger army that all is good and its all a plan correct? lmaoooo...you got it going on up in the top paddock dude....

Now here is an exert from another coach who is sitting 0-3 at the mo, see if you can spot the diff...ready?? FREMANTLE coach Ross Lyon has questioned his own coaching group and the Dockers' pre-season program after lamenting his players' inability to execute their skills under pressure during Saturday night's loss to West Coast.

 

[Tiger71]

Saturday was definitely a shift. I don't think the previous 2 weeks showed much shift.
If we were the 2nd or 3rd best at minimising turnovers last year, why are making turnovers this year? Has the team suddenly lost skill in 8 months? Did we play the same skilful players as last year that can execute under AFL pressure?

Yes utterly strange how you can have that many forward 50 marks, and not kick goals. That would be another problem to analyse.
And yes we do look good, when we move the ball further, faster, to uncongested parts. But we don't do it enough. Why is that? Is it dumb players, is it lack of training, is it training on something different.

But we had 326 disposals to 285, but they had 57 inside 50's to 53.
So where did our disposals advantage go to, because they certainly were not to our inside 50.
So they must have been up the ground or in the back line, and they must not of gone very far. And if they are not going very far, then we are moving it too slowly with high risk, high disposal game plans, to closely positioned players, not in un congested parts of the ground.

Mate all good questions and the coaches and players have to find the answer and bloody quickly as well. I do not believe you lose skill level, but IMO it comes down to our pre season, there must be something wrong in what we are doing, and yes I hold ALL the coaches accountable for that, to have our playing group so out of touch, skill wise. It is 3 pre seasons now that we have repeated exactly the same thing and its not all due to diffrent players or players playing in different positions.

That is why I am confident we can address it pretty quickly and believe our game plan is not as broken as the pies. Even though we have players that have seem to just lost touch of the speed of the game we can still get it inside and we can still get our hands on the pill. Lets look at the crows, they got it in 57 times but how many of that 57 was based on a direct turnover up the ground when our defenders were completely out of position ? I would suggest a good 40%.

So again, it comes down to why our players seem to not be able to hit a target by hand or foot. IMO its not game plan but how we have prepared the the side that is at fault.

 

[Joey longshadow]

LOL.

You realise, our turn overs is what is costing us games right ? The crows had 80% of there scores directly from our turn overs. I know you do not rate stats, some of those stats like over all possession can be miss leading BUT some of them tell a story. For example, our ball movement actually split the crows open a fair few times on Saturday ( it was just that we had so many turn overs it did not appear that way). We managed to mark the ball in our F50 15 bloody times! 99% of sides who have a F50 mark stat that high win the game and win it well, the crows only had 4 marks in side 50 for example.

Our issue at the moment is the majority of our players are over using the pill and getting exposed on the turn over. If our coach was a ******* like you love to suggest, our game plan would be like the pies, where we get dominated in nearly every stat as we can not get our hands on the ball, that is not the case. We can and do get our hands on the pill, what is killing us is what we are doing with it.

If you think its the coaches instructions to the players to not hit a target or hand ball the ball to a bloke under pressure or Dimma is saying " Alright lads, I want you to miss the last hand ball in a attacking chain to allow our defenders to be exposed"...then you need to go outside, take in the sun as its all getting a tad to much for you cogga.

I understand what you are saying ..I really do
But there is a major flaw ..the cattle he is trying to get to do this are not up to it ...we have some dumb players in our side and the skills of some of them are not up to it ...this is the on going flaw if we want to play this style we need the recruiters and coaches to identify better smarter players to recruit,poach etc
Because at the moment it seems like an exercise in polishing a turd ..it's still a turd
When it works it will be exquisite as in the hawks and now dogs handball chains
But the big difference between them and us there hands are very quick and the receivers are on the move in waves
We hand ball to the guy standing still

 

[Richmondayitis]

No I don't think our players are dumb, our game plan is too complicated resulting in slow ball movement. They need faster movement so the fowards can lead into space before the opposition pushes back and closes the space. This is Footy 101 for the last 15 years. You kick it long to a contest puting it to your teammates advantage. Footy was played like this for 100 years and no matter how much they try basketball tactics, teams who have the best foot skills win. Flags anyway. So Keep It Simple and kick it long so Jack and Ty can lead and mark. Footy is basically 3 things - Contested Possession, Ball Movement (Running lines+Kicking Long) and Accurate Scoring. Anything more than that becomes too much. Tempo footy won't win a flag, watching the furious nature grandfinals are played any team that tries cute footy gets smashed ie eagles swans freo hawks(12) pies saints cats(08) and port. You just see the same result year in year out. Contested Fast ball movement wins flags, it will this year too.

 

[DontArgue4]

if you guys want to watch how we should play, watch the replay of st kilda v pies from the weekend past

Absolutely awesome to watch, the saints dont hesitate in moving the ball on almost instantaneously no matter where they are on the park. A few times guys took marks on the wings and had a guy streaming past but they didnt give it off immediately cause they had a player on their tail, so they delayed the hand off until the guy got some space and then handballed it over the man on the mark. Makes it very hard for the defender when its done that way and gives the player getting the ball time to survey the space ahead of him before he even gets the ball.

The saints also use the diagonal kick to perfection, a well weighted diagonal ball to a leading forward is almost impossible to stop.

 

[Joey longshadow]

You are correct about game style ..to a degree

But some of our players are stupid ...and do the same dumb things over and over again
They consistently choose the wrong option

 

[Nostradumbass]

Game plan against Richmond. Just let them have the ball, they'll cough it up by overuse due to some game plan that's been worked on for months by the coach, players will end up panicking leading to mistakes. The players don't work hard enough, Punish them on the rebound.

 

[Gosha]

To make things worse we make it extremely easy for opposition players to slice us to pieces with handballs. Carlton made us look like witches hats in that chain of handballs that resulted in Cripps kicking a goal. Other teams run to the right spots, create space and and most importantly, don't miss 5m targets. We're not only poor going forward, we can't defend for shit.

 

[Nostradumbass]

To make things worse we make it extremely easy for opposition players to slice us to pieces with handballs. Carlton made us look like witches hats in that chain of handballs that resulted in Cripps kicking a goal. Other teams run to the right spots, create space and and most importantly, don't miss 5m targets. We're not only poor going forward, we can't defend for shit.

Well prepared side.....lol

 

[exceptional design]

Now to answer your point. You obviously have hart burn as you believed our premiership window was open, when it clearly was not. obviously after our 3rd final loss things had to change. Everyone was typing postings with spittle at the cornor of there mouths crying for change. Now our coach has decided to change it up and yet we still have those that rage.

if you guys want to watch how we should play, watch the replay of st kilda v pies from the weekend past

Absolutely awesome to watch, the saints dont hesitate in moving the ball on almost instantaneously no matter where they are on the park. A few times guys took marks on the wings and had a guy streaming past but they didnt give it off immediately cause they had a player on their tail, so they delayed the hand off until the guy got some space and then handballed it over the man on the mark. Makes it very hard for the defender when its done that way and gives the player getting the ball time to survey the space ahead of him before he even gets the ball.

The saints also use the diagonal kick to perfection, a well weighted diagonal ball to a leading forward is almost impossible to stop.

Wow that is Rocket Science stuff. Wish we could do it.

 

[exceptional design]

Game plan against Richmond. Just let them have the ball, they'll cough it up by overuse due to some game plan that's been worked on for months by the coach, players will end up panicking leading to mistakes. The players don't work hard enough, Punish them on the rebound.

Or Just run back to Richmond's forward line. They will get here eventually.

 

[TheProwler]

My next door neighbor thinks i have renamed my tv "kick the f**king thing" due to the amount of times i leapt from the chair to scream it on sat arvo.

I would love to see someone dubb some benny hill music over it as that was what it was like.

My old coach would have screamed from the sideline that the next campaigner to handball gets 50 pushups

 

[Starburns_]

LOL.

You realise, our turn overs is what is costing us games right ? The crows had 80% of there scores directly from our turn overs. I know you do not rate stats, some of those stats like over all possession can be miss leading BUT some of them tell a story. For example, our ball movement actually split the crows open a fair few times on Saturday ( it was just that we had so many turn overs it did not appear that way). We managed to mark the ball in our F50 15 bloody times! 99% of sides who have a F50 mark stat that high win the game and win it well, the crows only had 4 marks in side 50 for example.

You don't need to mark it inside 50 when you get out the back as often as they did.

Our issue at the moment is the majority of our players are over using the pill and getting exposed on the turn over. If our coach was a ******* like you love to suggest, our game plan would be like the pies, where we get dominated in nearly every stat as we can not get our hands on the ball, that is not the case. We can and do get our hands on the pill, what is killing us is what we are doing with it.

Skill errors happen in football, ours were magnified because the pathetic gameplan is not designed to take proper advantage of winning the ball. Hardwick has coached an alarmingly large chunk of best 22 players into becoming stat padders who upon taking a mark will instinctively look sideways before they even glance at what is forward of them.

If you think its the coaches instructions to the players to not hit a target or hand ball the ball to a bloke under pressure or Dimma is saying " Alright lads, I want you to miss the last hand ball in a attacking chain to allow our defenders to be exposed"...then you need to go outside, take in the sun as its all getting a tad to much for you cogga.

The coach clearly gave an instruction to let the Crows build a wall of loose players across the wing and half back, the players played that ridiculous overuse by handball because there was no one to kick to.

 

[Richmondayitis]

When I'm not screaming at the footy I'm yelling at black ops 3 my neighbours stay right away. When you barrack 4 richmond for 35 years and cop all that shit through the 80's for all the wooden spoons, then they sack John Nortey, then hire Walls n Geisham, Spud did better than anyone post Northey- he won a final! Then Wallace came along as the promised messiah being hailed a genius for instructing his players to play keepings off against I think it was undefeated adelaide, and bragging they got coaching tips off the radio in another, stupid 5 year plan then washing his hands saying he had no responsibility for the playing group from 05 to 09. All the shit I copped for finishing 9th over and over. Now the last 6 half years. Judd out plays the entire richmond side single handedly in 13, cotchin chooses to kick into 40 mile head wind in 14, then Harvey ala Judd single handedly out plays entire RFC again. Dimma throws in towel in nab game against port, only just beat the crappest carlton side ever fielded, get outplayed by pies who played shit and btw we beat them by 90 points 8 months ago, and the club dimma and players try todefend all this shit, cotchin shouldn't be captain, leading isnt just getting more touches than your teammates, Sam Mitchell gave up the captaincy to Hodge, didnt hurt Mitchells game or hawks 3 flags later, leaving out experienced players for kids is dumb when we are playing for finals der. So we are going to perth and if the eagles play well then we will here another load of excuses about what we already know. Give the captaincy to Maric or Riewoltd. Dimma and his coaching need looking at cause it's 30 years of embarrassment for me except for 95 and 2001. If I performed like this club at my work, well I wouldn't have a job, results count excuses dont. Hawks lost there captain andmanned up to the challenge, I think you'll see bulldogs too. So Richmond man up the criticism is justified you cant ignore constructive criticism and defend yourself from shocking play. I looked at the fixture and cant see us winning more than 9 games which is disapointing with the amount of time Dimma and his coaching staff have had. Now you know why I am a manic depressive when it comes to footy.