Play Nice Hannah Mouncey, transgender AFLW hopeful

[Aeglos]

Found this interesting.
Hopefully the ongoing research sheds some more objective light on the issue.

This scientist is racing to discover how gender transitions alter athletic performance—including her own

Following her groundbreaking study of transgender runners, Joanna Harper now advises sporting bodies on the role of testosterone in athletics

www.sciencemag.org

 

[Aeglos]

"They delivered a small dose of estrogen and a testosterone blocker and set in motion changes that Harper, who was designated male at birth and raised as a boy, had imagined since childhood."

Key word here is 'imagined', a thought process. IE, Mental health condition.

By 2004, "I was very close to a mental breakdown," she says.

There you have it, folks.

I'm sure her scientific study will produce some form of confirmation bias, though.

Women's sports for biological women only. Things like this video below are only the begining if we are going to pander this nonsence.

Imagined is the words of the author/editor and not Harper.
Though I presume you already know this and were just being facetious.

 

[Aeglos]

Doesn't really change the heart of my argument though. Harper said himself that he was close to a mental breakdown which are attributed to things like depression, anxiety and other mental health conditions that require a psychiatrist not a surgeon. We're living on some sort of weird timeline where a fetish is becoming a civil rights movement. Baffling that people are enabling all of this.

Plenty of non-trans people have mental illness as well.

 

[Aeglos]

And?

how does that create a causal link between identifying as male/female and having a mental health issue?

 

[Mad_Hatter]

Plenty of non-trans people have mental illness as well.

....and they'd be treated for mental health with.... mental help.
Not a surgeons knife.
Which is exactly his point...

 

[jatz14]

What I love about internet forums is how people can lecture on complex issues in which they have no special knowledge, and correct professional misunderstanding in 1 or 2 sentences.

Think global warming might be real because all the experts say it is, I have a giff which proves them wrong.

An international symposium of psychiatry says gender dysmorphia isn't a mental illness (aren't conspiracies supposed to increase work), let me explain the reality in 15 words or less.

Bob the drunk at the end of the bar who can tell you how the country should be run, but who cannot find his way to the toilet, and is ignored by everyone, comes into his own on the internet.


Sent from my XT1068 using Tapatalk

 

[RedBullRacing]

Two athletes:

A: transitions at the age of 25, enjoys full benefit of testosterone, competes as a male in sports at a high level.

B: transitions at the age of 16, does not compete initially in sports at a high level, but does so after transitioning.

Is there not a clear advantage to athlete A? Athlete A can build to a level, then drop to the required level. Athlete B is required to work up to that level.

This is not right.

 

[Aeglos]

....and they'd be treated for mental health with.... mental help.
Not a surgeons knife.
Which is exactly his point...

And?
The overwhelming majority in academia and science would agree that gender identification isn’t a mental health issue.
Hence it not being treated the same as mental health, nor being a sole cause of mental health issues.

 

[juss]

There's no need to complicate human biology. Sometimes nature does it for us on rare abnormal cases, otherwise it's quite simple, there are two sexes by birth male and female.

Let male born individuals play in a male league and those born female play in a female league.

 

[Aeglos]

Two athletes:

A: transitions at the age of 25, enjoys full benefit of testosterone, competes as a male in sports at a high level.

B: transitions at the age of 16, does not compete initially in sports at a high level, but does so after transitioning.

Is there not a clear advantage to athlete A? Athlete A can build to a level, then drop to the required level. Athlete B is required to work up to that level.

This is not right.

The truth of the matter is that beyond speculation no one has a definitive answer.

 

[RedBullRacing]

The truth of the matter is that beyond speculation no one has a definitive answer.

Enough of a reason to say no to compromising women's sport.

There are studies that have shown that people who have taken steroids still maintain an advantage well beyond using them.

One of my main arguments is: why is it fair that a male can transition down from a higher level of performance, and yet a female has to work up to that level. Hardly seems fair.

 

[RedBullRacing]

There's no need to complicate human biology. Sometimes nature does it for us on rare abnormal cases, otherwise it's quite simple, there are two sexes by birth male and female.

Let male born individuals play in a male league and those born female play in a female league.

Makes too much sense

 

[jatz14]

You really don't require any special knowledge to understand the differences between male and female. I'm sure you don't need me to sit here and explain the differences between each, I'm sure you're smart enough to know.

But sure, go ahead an recite some rhetoric about intersex (birth defect), hormone therapy, sex reassignment surgery.... yadda yadda. But unless you can convince me that a MTF trans person is able to carry and give birth to a child (Which is what a female by design is able to do) then spare me the bulls**t, because they aren't women.

Bingo.

 

[Aeglos]

Enough of a reason to say no to compromising women's sport.

There are studies that have shown that people who have taken steroids still maintain an advantage well beyond using them.

One of my main arguments is: why is it fair that a male can transition down from a higher level of performance, and yet a female has to work up to that level. Hardly seems fair.

In the interim I agree; until such time as it’s proven that someone transitioning in either direction gains no advantage there should be restrictions on their participation.
I’d actually be for letting them compete but be ineligible for medals, prize money etc as we need to collect data in order to come to some sort of consensus (effectively what Harper has been doing as outlined by the article I posted).

I’d be interested to see if you have those studies on humans as I thought we’d only done them on rats?
And even then I’m not sure it’s a direct parallel to the topic we are talking about (though certainly a valid point/concern to raise).

I found the article I posted interesting as what (very) little research has been conducted basically shows that if you’re the 100th ranked male in your sport and transition then you’ll be the 100th ranked female.
Very small sample sizes (think the only two published studies have something like a couple dozen participants combined) and so far they’ve been limited to endurance sports where the differences between sexes aren’t quite so drastic.
Definitely goes against what I would have hypothesised so I’m curious as to what future research (both molecular and effectively longitudinal studies) will show.

 

[RedBullRacing]

In the interim I agree; until such time as it’s proven that someone transitioning in either direction gains no advantage there should be restrictions on their participation.
I’d actually be for letting them compete but be ineligible for medals, prize money etc as we need to collect data in order to come to some sort of consensus (effectively what Harper has been doing as outlined by the article I posted).

I’d be interested to see if you have those studies on humans as I thought we’d only done them on rats?
And even then I’m not sure it’s a direct parallel to the topic we are talking about (though certainly a valid point/concern to raise).

I found the article I posted interesting as what (very) little research has been conducted basically shows that if you’re the 100th ranked male in your sport and transition then you’ll be the 100th ranked female.
Very small sample sizes (think the only two published studies have something like a couple dozen participants combined) and so far they’ve been limited to endurance sports where the differences between sexes aren’t quite so drastic.
Definitely goes against what I would have hypothesised so I’m curious as to what future research (both molecular and effectively longitudinal studies) will show.

I can't remember the article but it is out there talking about how steroids maintain their effectiveness.

Something also worth noting is that Laurel Hubbard was able to get within a small amount of one of the best female weightlifters (A convicted drug cheat) with terrible technique. It's hard not to see the advantages that Laurel enjoyed.

 

[Aeglos]

I can't remember the article but it is out there talking about how steroids maintain their effectiveness.

Something also worth noting is that Laurel Hubbard was able to get within a small amount of one of the best female weightlifters (A convicted drug cheat) with terrible technique. It's hard not to see the advantages that Laurel enjoyed.

I suspect the article would have referred to studies done on rats rather than humans as I can’t imagine a trial relating to steroids and performance enhancement getting registered getting approved in North America, here or Europe. There might be some research on it reversing the effects of sarcopenia but I don’t recall any from an a pharmacology assignment I did last year (I will have another look though).

The problem with using Hubbard as the argument is
1) it’s only 1 example out of however many MTF athletes there are competing in sport
2) they were already a top weightlifter so even if a MTF transition offers no advantage then it’d be expected they’d be a top weightlifter as a female
3) there’s a host of other variables that need to be accounted for eg is their competition just really weak?
I’m not saying you’re wrong btw, more that it’s hard to make a convincing argument based off a single case when there’s a whole host of factors involved (which is why we need more data and research).

 

[Aeglos]

The data and research on the differences between male and female have long been accounted for. There really isn't any need to re-invent the wheel.

Completely separate discussion to MTF and FTM transgender.

 

[eastfreo75]

cliffs: Do I think male and female tennis players should be paid the same? Absolutely I do.


If men played best-of-3 sets and women played best-of-5 sets and women always* played 2nd at night I have no doubt people would scream sexism, and rightly so. [*thankfully this has changed in recent years, and men do not always play last at night]

You talk about equal pay at the majors, this is a relatively new phenomenon spurred on by political correctness rather than what is right. You mention the ratings in Japan. Maybe that had something to do with a Japanese woman winning and becoming number one. I'm sure ratings in Switzerland have been good the past 15 years. Why do you think that is?

Men's tennis generates more advertising dollars, more sponsorship dollars, higher ratings, bigger crowds, etc etc, but even if you ignore all that, the only thing that you can compare is length of time on court. There is simply zero justification for men to play longer than women. Are women too weak? Are the women not fit enough? Do women need to be treated softly because they are precious delicate little flowers? Given that the top women spend minimal time on court, they have an opportunity the top men do not. They are able to supplement their singles income with doubles and mixed doubles, something no man at the top of his game could even contemplate.

Your ridiculous comment about men being triggered is a juvenile argument. You are arguing for inequality.

Anyway, we have a Tennis forum and I would encourage you to put your thoughts down here: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/equal-prizemoney.1157017/

The main reason is that the top women players in the first few rounds win 6-1, 6-2 etc.

The gap between the top 10 and 100 player is huge in the women’s game. While the men , the gap is less.

I would like the women from the quarter finals onward play 5 sets.

 

[RedBullRacing]

I suspect the article would have referred to studies done on rats rather than humans as I can’t imagine a trial relating to steroids and performance enhancement getting registered getting approved in North America, here or Europe. There might be some research on it reversing the effects of sarcopenia but I don’t recall any from an a pharmacology assignment I did last year (I will have another look though).

The problem with using Hubbard as the argument is
1) it’s only 1 example out of however many MTF athletes there are competing in sport
2) they were already a top weightlifter so even if a MTF transition offers no advantage then it’d be expected they’d be a top weightlifter as a female
3) there’s a host of other variables that need to be accounted for eg is their competition just really weak?
I’m not saying you’re wrong btw, more that it’s hard to make a convincing argument based off a single case when there’s a whole host of factors involved (which is why we need more data and research).

Very successful from a small talent pool. Huge cause for concern. Another important consideration often ignored is that Hubbard should only ever be compared to oceanic lifters. Otherwise you arenignoring the disparity between training techniques and other well known issues in eastern europe and asia. Just compare the world records between those countries, then the US then oceana.

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[hansie]

Hannah came into work last week and told her story. She seems like a nice person, hope it all works out for her. Obviously it’s been a challenge for her.

She’s very big though - tall and well put together!


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Punt rd end]

Back in the news, saying that the other women didn't want to shower or get changed with her so she was left off the team

Transgender AFL player vents after being sacked from her handball team

The athlete, 30, was thrust into the spotlight in 2017 after she was rejected from the women's AFL team because tests showed she had too much testosterone to qualify for the female leagues.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[10571z]

Back in the news, saying that the other women didn't want to shower or get changed with her so she was left off the team

Transgender AFL player vents after being sacked from her handball team

The athlete, 30, was thrust into the spotlight in 2017 after she was rejected from the women's AFL team because tests showed she had too much testosterone to qualify for the female leagues.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Women have shower cubicals... can’t be that hard to shower

 

[Punt rd end]

Women have shower cubicals... can’t be that hard to shower

Not in all places, anyway it was obviously a problem and Hannah refused to comply with the wishes of the women

 

[10571z]

Not in all places, anyway it was obviously a problem and Hannah refused to comply with the wishes of the women

Regardless can’t see how someone good enough to make the male team should now compete in the female comp because they choose to change genders

 

[Punt rd end]

Regardless can’t see how someone good enough to make the male team should now compete in the female comp because they choose to change genders

I agree, its not fair on the womens comp