Mega Thread Hardwick Vent Thread

[tugga]

Re: Hardwick hiding in the bleachers...must be gone years end

You are the same chook that used to post under the nic of a part time Blues supporter. Only difference is that you were more honest back then.

The point is not about sacking coaches, but about holding them accountible much earlier in their tenure than we have done.

If both Frawley and Wallace were put on notice during their 2nd year of coaching of what woudl clearly be defined as progress in their 3rd season, they would have delivered much better results in their 3rd and 4th seasons.

The expectations Gary March put on Wallace at the end of his 4th season to deliver in his 5th season should have been put in place 2 years earlier.

We should manage Hardwick more carefully and professionally than the past 2 hacks. He shold know now that if we dont perform in our first 6 games next season, he wont get renewed at the end of the year.

6 games?
What do you consider to be 'perform'?
If we play Collingwod, Geelong, Hawthorn, Carlton, West Coast at Subi and Freo at Subi and lose them all narrowly but conversely play the Suns, GWS, Port at home, Lions at home, Freo at home and the Crows and win them all narrowly, which is the better result?
Not having a dig, just wondering what your idea of performing is, because at such an early stage in the season, I consider it be very subjective.
Halfway mark is always a good indicator. Much more so than round 6.
Personally I think 6 games is way too early.

 

[1980]

Re: Hardwick hiding in the bleachers...must be gone years end

6 games?
What do you consider to be 'perform'?
If we play Collingwod, Geelong, Hawthorn, Carlton, West Coast at Subi and Freo at Subi and lose them all narrowly but conversely play the Suns, GWS, Port at home, Lions at home, Freo at home and the Crows and win them all narrowly, which is the better result?
Not having a dig, just wondering what your idea of performing is, because at such an early stage in the season, I consider it be very subjective.
Halfway mark is always a good indicator. Much more so than round 6.
Personally I think 6 games is way too early.

The point is Tugga that its important to define what the measure of success is early on.

Personally, my view is that in your third season as coach (VS your first 2), you know enough (or should know enough) by round 6. And this is not defined by win loss ratio, but by competitiveness.

More reastically, at the RFC, we know after Round 1 playing Carlton how the year is going to play out...it normally takes us another 5 games to recover.

Half way through the season may very well be the correct measure.

If, half way through next season, its clear we wont be playing finals, how many on here would want Hardwick to get a contract extension?

I'm just saying, whatever the crietria is, hold the coach accountible to it. No more of this wasted 4th and 5th seasons like we had under Frawley and Wallace. And I think this is especially the case with a first time senior coach!

 

[AstroboyUK]

Re: Hardwick hiding in the bleachers...must be gone years end

You are the same chook that used to post under the nic of a part time Blues supporter. Only difference is that you were more honest back then.

The point is not about sacking coaches, but about holding them accountible much earlier in their tenure than we have done.

If both Frawley and Wallace were put on notice during their 2nd year of coaching of what woudl clearly be defined as progress in their 3rd season, they would have delivered much better results in their 3rd and 4th seasons.

The expectations Gary March put on Wallace at the end of his 4th season to deliver in his 5th season should have been put in place 2 years earlier.

We should manage Hardwick more carefully and professionally than the past 2 hacks. He shold know now that if we dont perform in our first 6 games next season, he wont get renewed at the end of the year.

1980 - I have never posted under any log in/id than this one, thanks. I am a loyal tiger and given that my entire point is about NOT stirring the pot and preaching patience and reasonable expectations I really dont know how you can identify me to some kind of carlton troll. Poor form.

You've simply taken the route of saying Im wrong because Im a troll, not Im wrong because my arguament is wrong. I think you are wrong because Wallace and Frawley situations are nothing like the current situation - on or off the field - or in terms of historical context the club is in now vs 8 -10 years ago. The parallels fail on the basis of current circumstances, the difference in playing personall, the differnce in CEO, the difference in the kind of damage our club reputation for eating our own has, the difference in facilities, the difference in financial planning, the difference (goddammit) of COACH himself.

Manage Hardwick as closely as you like - but it simplynmoronic to expect a coach to work to a long term plan if you have a mere 6-week performance clause over his head.. Dont you see that is just encouraging the Wallace kind of spin and short-cuts to short term results? Frawley admits himself that the biggest mistake he made was thinking he could just 'top up' the list in 2002... ie take a short cut.. and then was on the slippery slope that you endorse, fighting for breathing space for the rest of his downwardly spiralling tenure. In 2011 you just cannot treat coaches like this anymore.. something the rest of the league seems to have twigged to; but our feral supporters havent. Its like you still want NEil Balme giving out coat hangers in the forward line. The game/industry just doesnt work this way anymore... and not just out of some weird sense of PC .. but becasue it doesnt deliver RESULTS.

The current 'sack hardwick' mentality is ultimately self fulfilling if it takes grip and totally counter productive to building the kind of club we want.... further more there is simply NO JUSTIFICATION if the only justification you can point to is just the last 6 weeks. You guys have concentration span of a 12 year old on coke. Where on your planet is room for a long term plan?

 

[tugga]

Re: Hardwick hiding in the bleachers...must be gone years end

The point is Tugga that its important to define what the measure of success is early on.

Personally, my view is that in your third season as coach (VS your first 2), you know enough (or should know enough) by round 6. And this is not defined by win loss ratio, but by competitiveness.

More reastically, at the RFC, we know after Round 1 playing Carlton how the year is going to play out...it normally takes us another 5 games to recover.

Half way through the season may very well be the correct measure.

If, half way through next season, its clear we wont be playing finals, how many on here would want Hardwick to get a contract extension?

I'm just saying, whatever the crietria is, hold the coach accountible to it. No more of this wasted 4th and 5th seasons like we had under Frawley and Wallace. And I think this is especially the case with a first time senior coach!

Fair enough. Good post.

1980 - I have never posted under any log in/id than this one, thanks. I am a loyal tiger and given that my entire point is about NOT stirring the pot and preaching patience and reasonable expectations I really dont know how you can identify me to some kind of carlton troll. Poor form.

I think he has you confused with someone else - astrotoby I think?

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

Re: Hardwick hiding in the bleachers...must be gone years end

Trade in more than one player who has been on a list proper and is over 23, had a reasonable run with injuries and finish 6-8 or worst. FAIL
We stick with the long term plan and continue to bring through young players, have a reasonable run with injuries and finish above ninth . PASS

 

[1980]

Re: Hardwick hiding in the bleachers...must be gone years end

1980 - I have never posted under any log in/id than this one, thanks. I am a loyal tiger and given that my entire point is about NOT stirring the pot and preaching patience and reasonable expectations I really dont know how you can identify me to some kind of carlton troll. Poor form.

You've simply taken the route of saying Im wrong because Im a troll, not Im wrong because my arguament is wrong. I think you are wrong because Wallace and Frawley situations are nothing like the current situation - on or off the field - or in terms of historical context the club is in now vs 8 -10 years ago. The parallels fail on the basis of current circumstances, the difference in playing personall, the differnce in CEO, the difference in the kind of damage our club reputation for eating our own has, the difference in facilities, the difference in financial planning, the difference (goddammit) of COACH himself.

Manage Hardwick as closely as you like - but it simplynmoronic to expect a coach to work to a long term plan if you have a mere 6-week performance clause over his head.. Dont you see that is just encouraging the Wallace kind of spin and short-cuts to short term results? Frawley admits himself that the biggest mistake he made was thinking he could just 'top up' the list in 2002... ie take a short cut.. and then was on the slippery slope that you endorse, fighting for breathing space for the rest of his downwardly spiralling tenure. In 2011 you just cannot treat coaches like this anymore.. something the rest of the league seems to have twigged to; but our feral supporters havent. Its like you still want NEil Balme giving out coat hangers in the forward line. The game/industry just doesnt work this way anymore... and not just out of some weird sense of PC .. but becasue it doesnt deliver RESULTS.

The current 'sack hardwick' mentality is ultimately self fulfilling if it takes grip and totally counter productive to building the kind of club we want.... further more there is simply NO JUSTIFICATION if the only justification you can point to is just the last 6 weeks. You guys have concentration span of a 12 year old on coke. Where on your planet is room for a long term plan?

Apologies for confusing you with Astrotoby, though its easy to confuse the 2 of you since you both post gibberish.

Nevertheless, I dont want the club to manage the coach from a great distance with a long leash the way they did Frawley and Wallace and with a bunch of get out of jail free cards, 5 year contracts, rebuilds and redevelopments to boot.

Hardwick goes into next season with 2 full seasons under his belt. That's enough time to influence a list and shape how a team will develop. If he cant get the team playing next season, he never will. Just like Wallace and Frawley didnt.

 

[AstroboyUK]

Re: Hardwick hiding in the bleachers...must be gone years end

well thats where we will have to agree to disagree: 2 full seasons under his belt is defiantely NOT enough when you a) inherit a terrible list b) do a major cleanout c) replace the cleared-out players with very very young players d) your football department is one of the most underfunded in the league e) you are, in conjunction with the administration, working to a 3-5 year plan to right the ship not a 2 year plan.... and for good measure you can also add f) if you happen to cop a bad run of injuries that undermines progress generally.

Hardwick and the club planned and agreed together to work on a long term plan. He is sticking to that and not taking short cuts just to keep feral supporters in check after year 2.

The management precdents of Frawley and Wallace are largely irrellevant as t(particularly under Wallace) the club was a total basket case off field in that period, and couldnt manage anything. We have a competent managment in place now.. they would have managed wallace differently/appropriately: and Im confident they will manage Hardwick appropriately; but what they wont do it capitulate into short term plans to keep feral supporters in check after year 2 either.

 

[MightyTiger]

Re: Hardwick hiding in the bleachers...must be gone years end

well thats where we will have to agree to disagree: 2 full seasons under his belt is defiantely NOT enough when you a) inherit a terrible list b) do a major cleanout c) replace the cleared-out players with very very young players d) your football department is one of the most underfunded in the league e) you are, in conjunction with the administration, working to a 3-5 year plan to right the ship not a 2 year plan.... and for good measure you can also add f) if you happen to cop a bad run of injuries that undermines progress generally.

Hardwick and the club planned and agreed together to work on a long term plan. He is sticking to that and not taking short cuts just to keep feral supporters in check after year 2.

The management precdents of Frawley and Wallace are largely irrellevant as t(particularly under Wallace) the club was a total basket case off field in that period, and couldnt manage anything. We have a competent managment in place now.. they would have managed wallace differently/appropriately: and Im confident they will manage Hardwick appropriately; but what they wont do it capitulate into short term plans to keep feral supporters in check after year 2 either.

 

[tigerfoxgurl]

Re: Hardwick hiding in the bleachers...must be gone years end

f) if you happen to cop a bad run of injuries that undermines progress generally.

I love the injury excuses. Dea, Dericx, Who? Astbury, timid plodder at reserve level. Connors, really? Moore, been injured ever since he joined the club. Which leaves Grimes, skinny spoiler in his 2nd season. Most clubs would be pretty happy with an injury list like that.

Young list excuse when that is your coaching strategy. You can't use your strategy as an excuse. Cut senior players, then recruit Miller and Grigg.

Nason and Webberley in reserves, both Hardwick recruits, both given plenty of free games last year. Maybe they aren't any good or have not developed but whose fault is that.

We have Thursfield, McGuane, Newman, Deledio, Houli and Rance in defence. That's not a terribly young or inexperienced backline and should be competitive.

Then we have the comical situation this year with Tuck and Post....

Its embarrassing when people make excuses for abysmal performances. Will the excuses be any different in year 4? They weren't with spud or wallace.

 

[RFC_Official]

Re: Hardwick hiding in the bleachers...must be gone years end

Agree.

 

[1980]

Re: Hardwick hiding in the bleachers...must be gone years end

well thats where we will have to agree to disagree: 2 full seasons under his belt is defiantely NOT enough when you a) inherit a terrible list b) do a major cleanout c) replace the cleared-out players with very very young players d) your football department is one of the most underfunded in the league e) you are, in conjunction with the administration, working to a 3-5 year plan to right the ship not a 2 year plan.... and for good measure you can also add f) if you happen to cop a bad run of injuries that undermines progress generally.

Hardwick and the club planned and agreed together to work on a long term plan. He is sticking to that and not taking short cuts just to keep feral supporters in check after year 2.

The management precdents of Frawley and Wallace are largely irrellevant as t(particularly under Wallace) the club was a total basket case off field in that period, and couldnt manage anything. We have a competent managment in place now.. they would have managed wallace differently/appropriately: and Im confident they will manage Hardwick appropriately; but what they wont do it capitulate into short term plans to keep feral supporters in check after year 2 either.

Everything you have posted here is, to the very letter, the exact same things posted when Frawley was coach and again posted when Wallace was coach.

I am sure you find that extremely reassuring.

LMAO that we rolled out the line about long term planning and Clinton Casey as "competent management" (VS Leon Daphne), and long term planning and Greg Miller as competent management/board VS the previous administration after that.

 

[tigerT]

Re: Hardwick hiding in the bleachers...must be gone years end

Everything you have posted here is, to the very letter, the exact same things posted when Frawley was coach and again posted when Wallace was coach.

I am sure you find that extremely reassuring.

LMAO that we rolled out the line about long term planning and Clinton Casey as "competent management" (VS Leon Daphne), and long term planning and Greg Miller as competent management/board VS the previous administration after that.

Its groundhog day.

Heard it all before and just dont buy it this time. I can understand that a young list will have ups and downs, not an issue for mine - the issue I have is that after 18months it looks like we've fallen back into old habits of little and no blocking/shepharding, tackling, nobody gut runs both ways. Regardless of personel or coaches it seems this club inherently develops lazy players and this batch seems no different judging by the way our KPI's are trending.

You can be down on class, experience etc but effort is a non negotiable regardless of age. Just look at the GC how often do they simply roll over? Not much! Not good enough richmond and those eternal apologists need to get real and gain some effin pride!!

 

[Spanish_Fly]

Have to add one small comment here and that is that AFL coaches are very lucky with the breathing space given at most jobs.

Have a look at any EPL Manager and if you cant get your game plan implemented in 3 months you are out the door. Its amazing how no threat from Relegation can completely change the dynamics of how a sport operates.

 

[The Goon]

Have to add one small comment here and that is that AFL coaches are very lucky with the breathing space given at most jobs.

Have a look at any EPL Manager and if you cant get your game plan implemented in 3 months you are out the door. Its amazing how no threat from Relegation can completely change the dynamics of how a sport operates.

This is a seriously flawed comparison. EPL clubs can essentially buy their way out of trouble by upgrading a poor list. The coach and fans know the value - both monetary and on the field - of the playing list.

 

[Spanish_Fly]

This is a seriously flawed comparison. EPL clubs can essentially buy their way out of trouble by upgrading a poor list. The coach and fans know the value - both monetary and on the field - of the playing list.

I know there are a lot of reasons why there cannot be a straight comparison between the 2 jobs, and it is unfair to do so. My comment was more in relation to AFL coaches saying it takes 2-3 years to implement a gameplan, which is rubbish IMO, all EPL managers do it within weeks generally.


Not all EPL clubs have the ability to buy thier way out of trouble or they would all do it.

 

[NQTIGER]

Its groundhog day.

Heard it all before and just dont buy it this time. I can understand that a young list will have ups and downs, not an issue for mine - the issue I have is that after 18months it looks like we've fallen back into old habits of little and no blocking/shepharding, tackling, nobody gut runs both ways. Regardless of personel or coaches it seems this club inherently develops lazy players and this batch seems no different judging by the way our KPI's are trending.

You can be down on class, experience etc but effort is a non negotiable regardless of age. Just look at the GC how often do they simply roll over? Not much! Not good enough richmond and those eternal apologists need to get real and gain some effin pride!!

Have to add one small comment here and that is that AFL coaches are very lucky with the breathing space given at most jobs.

Have a look at any EPL Manager and if you cant get your game plan implemented in 3 months you are out the door. Its amazing how no threat from Relegation can completely change the dynamics of how a sport operates.

I know there are a lot of reasons why there cannot be a straight comparison between the 2 jobs, and it is unfair to do so. My comment was more in relation to AFL coaches saying it takes 2-3 years to implement a gameplan, which is rubbish IMO, all EPL managers do it within weeks generally.


Not all EPL clubs have the ability to buy thier way out of trouble or they would all do it.

The lack of effort and the requirement of implementing a game plan when there is lack of effort is impossible.

Last year we concentrated on Defence? or was it Offence? This year is it Transition or is it defence?

We havent improved our defence, or offence is working well as the requirement was less goals from JR.

Or transition.....well when the ball is in our backline we transit the ball to the opposition.

Where are we improving?

What game plan are we trying to implement?

 

[tigerT]

The lack of effort and the requirement of implementing a game plan when there is lack of effort is impossible.

Last year we concentrated on Defence? or was it Offence? This year is it Transition or is it defence?

We havent improved our defence, or offence is working well as the requirement was less goals from JR.

Or transition.....well when the ball is in our backline we transit the ball to the opposition.

Where are we improving?

What game plan are we trying to implement?

Thats whats got me buggered NQT. There doesnt seem to be a distinct path we're taking, we're neither here nor there and look like we're back at square 1. Defensive, offensive? well admittedly offensively we have improved but defensively and i dont just mean our defence I mean collective defensive startegy of the whole side, looks every bit as bad now as it did 18months ago. Without sound defensive structures u have no hope and that was the first thing we were going to be working on. I see zero improvement in this facet

 

[NQTIGER]

Thats whats got me buggered NQT. There doesnt seem to be a distinct path we're taking, we're neither here nor there and look like we're back at square 1. Defensive, offensive? well admittedly offensively we have improved but defensively and i dont just mean our defence I mean collective defensive startegy of the whole side, looks every bit as bad now as it did 18months ago. Without sound defensive structures u have no hope and that was the first thing we were going to be working on. I see zero improvement in this facet

I do occasionly ask a serious question and post a sensible post amongst my moronic posts

 

[Tiger2709]

Re: Hardwick hiding in the bleachers...must be gone years end

I love the injury excuses. Dea, Dericx, Who? Astbury, timid plodder at reserve level. Connors, really? Moore, been injured ever since he joined the club. Which leaves Grimes, skinny spoiler in his 2nd season. Most clubs would be pretty happy with an injury list like that.

Young list excuse when that is your coaching strategy. You can't use your strategy as an excuse. Cut senior players, then recruit Miller and Grigg.

Nason and Webberley in reserves, both Hardwick recruits, both given plenty of free games last year. Maybe they aren't any good or have not developed but whose fault is that.

We have Thursfield, McGuane, Newman, Deledio, Houli and Rance in defence. That's not a terribly young or inexperienced backline and should be competitive.

Then we have the comical situation this year with Tuck and Post....

Its embarrassing when people make excuses for abysmal performances. Will the excuses be any different in year 4? They weren't with spud or wallace.

I believe Hardwick only has a 3 year contract so at the moment year 4 is quite irrelevant, a plan was put in place lets see how it pans out, if at the end of next year there is no measurable improvement, then it may be time to rethink the coaching situation, but I'm ashamed of a lot of you so called supporters calling for DH's head already, I'm sure none of you have any better ideas on how to drag ourselves out of the $h1t we've been in for the last 30 years, have some faith, while Hardwick still has the players support and believe, he also has mine.

 

[tigerfoxgurl]

Re: Hardwick hiding in the bleachers...must be gone years end

I believe Hardwick only has a 3 year contract so at the moment year 4 is quite irrelevant, a plan was put in place lets see how it pans out, if at the end of next year there is no measurable improvement, then it may be time to rethink the coaching situation.

I agree with all that. But the time to watch him isn't after the damage is done at the end of year 3. It's over the whole process. If he isn't tracking well now, then they need a shake up of his support staff and everyone in the football department now. Otherwise next year will be another disaster. There are talks of extending his contract this year. That would be a big mistake based on what he has delivered to date.

Maybe if he gets the right support and we have a recruiting boon this year, he might be able to have a decent crack next year. But it won't happen if we all walk around blindfolded patting each other on the back.

 

[tiggywigs]

Personally, I like Dimma. But I'm a little confused as to exactly what he is bringing to the table at this stage. By year two, I expected to see two things. A settling defence and a growing self-belief.

With regards to the defence, it's true he has been unlucky with injuries/suspensions to both the key and flank defensive posts throughout and he has had his faith in Rance amply repaid. Grimes also look extremely promising. But it's still unclear who will take the CHB slot, Lids looks wasted on the HBF, and we are no where near solving the problem of how to shut down small opposing forwards (which seems particularly odd given Dimma's own career). There's also a lack of composure about our overall defensive style that feels disconcerting.

But it's self-belief that worries me the most. It had definitely tailed off from the time of the Darwin game (no matter what the players are quoted as saying). The one percenters that had been such a welcome addition to our game in the first half of the season suddenly disappeared. Of course a long hard season takes its toll of a young playing group's enthusiasm. Yet it's hard to dismiss the notion that something else has undermined the determination that seemed so evident earlier on. I can't help wondering whether a seemingly inconsistent selection policy is part of that story.

And whether Dimma's greatest seeming asset, his ability to motivate, might not have suffered because of a perception that he wasn't walking the talk and rewarding effort before potential.

 

[turtle27]

Personally, I like Dimma. But I'm a little confused as to exactly what he is bringing to the table at this stage. By year two, I expected to see two things. A settling defence and a growing self-belief.

With regards to the defence, it's true he has been unlucky with injuries/suspensions to both the key and flank defensive posts throughout and he has had his faith in Rance amply repaid. Grimes also look extremely promising. But it's still unclear who will take the CHB slot, Lids looks wasted on the HBF, and we are no where near solving the problem of how to shut down small opposing forwards (which seems particularly odd given Dimma's own career). There's also a lack of composure about our overall defensive style that feels disconcerting.

Certainly having Astbury, Grimes, Neman, Lids, and Rance as a settled back five, with Posty, McGuane, or Thurstfield rotating through would have been much healthier. I suspect they've known all along that Posty would be the CHB, but simply isn't ready yet. I note in another thread it's mentioned that we are making CHB a priority come trade time. I think Matty Dea will step into the spot of looking after small forwards, but again, injury got him.

But it's self-belief that worries me the most. It had definitely tailed off from the time of the Darwin game (no matter what the players are quoted as saying). The one percenters that had been such a welcome addition to our game in the first half of the season suddenly disappeared. Of course a long hard season takes its toll of a young playing group's enthusiasm. Yet it's hard to dismiss the notion that something else has undermined the determination that seemed so evident earlier on. I can't help wondering whether a seemingly inconsistent selection policy is part of that story.

The Darwin game looks to have completely derailed our season. We have dropped off so much after that game it's not funny. I thought we were going to get it back after the win against the Lions, but we haven't.

 

[NQTIGER]

After todays little tet tet dimma assuring us that the west coast havent overtaken us makes me feel so much better.

I mean lets face it they finshed on the bottom just below us and twelve months later they are heading for top 4 whilst we are on the way to bottom 4 but they havent overtaken us.

 

[1980GFVideo]

After todays little tet tet dimma assuring us that the west coast havent overtaken us makes me feel so much better.

I mean lets face it they finshed on the bottom just below us and twelve months later they are heading for top 4 whilst we are on the way to bottom 4 but they havent overtaken us.

Yep, He went for the "They were never actually below us" approach. Looks more authentic if after our win against them last year, he was prepared to point it out.

I have to admit that I thought Hardwick would be a straight shooter and would never call a spade anything other than a spade but he is showing a bit of Wallace 'salesman' these days.

 

[_RT_]

After todays little tet tet dimma assuring us that the west coast havent overtaken us makes me feel so much better.

I mean lets face it they finshed on the bottom just below us and twelve months later they are heading for top 4 whilst we are on the way to bottom 4 but they havent overtaken us.

West Coasts turn around has come mainly on the back of improved years from guys like Cox Glass Kerr Embley Priddis A Selwood Nicoski Lynch & Hurn who are all players with a minimum 90 games and 8 years experience under their belts. They have also been helped by guys like Kennedy S. Selwood & Ebert stepping up.

Going to be interesting to see how they fair in a few years time when those older blokes, most of who are 28+, retire and have to be replaced by kids.