Bumped Hardwick's pass mark

[PUNTROADHAMMER]

If we reduce points against by an average of 15-20 points a game, that is MASSIVE improvement for me and will see us play finals, comfortably.

Agreed. I'm not saying we won't make the 8 but I reckon if we do we'll get hammered. 2013 is where we'll start to seriously worry the top few teams. Perhaps I should have gone with 10-12 points...

 

[Truetiger]

Hardwick has done enough to be given a new contract beyond 2012. When he took over surely everyone would agree that most of what he has done is on the positive side. I like many would agree he should be given a new 2 year deal before Round 1.

 

[nobulltiger]

Well done, you're a quick learner. I'll give you one more chance. Happy posting

I'm so happy to have your approval, how may I lick your balls in future?

 

[santa claws]

Honest genuine opinions get labelled a troll!!! Then i'm a troll!

nope your just terribly impatient. but hey who can blame ya.

we arent talking about the last 30 yrs here which i think gets confused with new coaches tenures.

hardwick by the end of yr 4 will probably go very close to turnuing over the entire list give or take 5 or so.

theres only two ways to build your list. that is you draft players thru the nd, rookie draft or psd. or you trade for players.

we were actually bin a worse position than gc we had to find a way to cut clean out and start again 2/3 of the list in two yrs. gc just walked up and used all those early bpicks.

what is a reasonable time frame to 1 rebuild a list while at the same time trying to cut at the end of the day about 80 90% of your list. we only have so many decent picks and we can only turn over so many in any certain yr. gc they just waltz in and load up.

how long do people think it will take gc to make finals with all their advantages. them ask how long will it takle us with all of the disadvantages.
gc beat us last yr that should tell people exactly where we are coming from.

entering yr 3 and we are still with the carving knife in hand needing to cut pretty deep.
we have very few experienced players of quality our senior core is shit and we rely on 22 yo and under and people think we should make finals.
oh i see we are not in rebuild or development for that matter.

all i can say is we are a bunch of fools who never ever look at the reality and never ever learn from the past. i really hope the club has finally changed from this sort of mentality.

im certain they should just keep their mouths shut and stop trying to give a little hope or spin bullshit to appease the masses. all it does is create false expectations.

if gale had been brutally honest and said at the end of 2009, we wont make finals for 4 yrs we would be better off now. instead he offered some hope and spin to get memberships up and we now have fools throwing it back in his face.
i hope they learn a lesson.
the biggest lesson is richmond supporters are feral impatient and fools.

 

[nobulltiger]

There is no such thing as a impatient tiger supporter anymore. often fooled is more like it! i

 

[TigerTime88]

2 years would be excessive in my opinion for a coach who has still yet to prove anything in actual long term results. Happy to see 1 year added to his term before the season starts to quiet the media pack. 2 years and we could see what happened at Essendon to a Tiger great in Knights. The Bombers went to the top of my most hated clubs list because of that (they were second anyway) and they'll be staying there for a while I reckon.

I reckon DH would be happy to sign a 1 year extension with an option to a second year based on strict criteria just like players coming to an end of their careers sign. I don't do criteria so I'll leave it up to the right brain thinkers out there to speculate on what that criteria is. Thoughts?

Yeah agree my bad I meant 2 years from now.

 

[Goldust]

nope your just terribly impatient. but hey who can blame ya.

we arent talking about the last 30 yrs here which i think gets confused with new coaches tenures.

hardwick by the end of yr 4 will probably go very close to turnuing over the entire list give or take 5 or so.

theres only two ways to build your list. that is you draft players thru the nd, rookie draft or psd. or you trade for players.

we were actually bin a worse position than gc we had to find a way to cut clean out and start again 2/3 of the list in two yrs. gc just walked up and used all those early bpicks.

what is a reasonable time frame to 1 rebuild a list while at the same time trying to cut at the end of the day about 80 90% of your list. we only have so many decent picks and we can only turn over so many in any certain yr. gc they just waltz in and load up.

how long do people think it will take gc to make finals with all their advantages. them ask how long will it takle us with all of the disadvantages.
gc beat us last yr that should tell people exactly where we are coming from.

entering yr 3 and we are still with the carving knife in hand needing to cut pretty deep.
we have very few experienced players of quality our senior core is shit and we rely on 22 yo and under and people think we should make finals.
oh i see we are not in rebuild or development for that matter.

all i can say is we are a bunch of fools who never ever look at the reality and never ever learn from the past. i really hope the club has finally changed from this sort of mentality.

im certain they should just keep their mouths shut and stop trying to give a little hope or spin bullshit to appease the masses. all it does is create false expectations.

if gale had been brutally honest and said at the end of 2009, we wont make finals for 4 yrs we would be better off now. instead he offered some hope and spin to get memberships up and we now have fools throwing it back in his face.
i hope they learn a lesson.
the biggest lesson is richmond supporters are feral impatient and fools.

I guess one area GC and GWS could come unstuck is once successful, they may have trouble meeting the monetary demands of so many top 10 and first round picks. Theoretically each club has one top deafty pick who, if he kicks in, commands good coin. GC and GWS will have five and six top 10 draft picks and they can't really pay them all top dollar should they all develop as forecast. Some will have to move on to be paid more!!

 

[TOOs_Finest]

santa, if the club came out and said it wouldn't be considering finals for 4-5 years, the heat would've been on the club from day one. The press wouldn't just put the RFC on the back burner for the next 48 months, they'd be all over it. A lot of members like wise.

So it doesn't make a lot of difference what you say or when you say it, maybe how you say it. People will still be impatient fools.

The test of the club is to be able to keep separated their own ideals, judgements on performance and to stay the path they set down. Regardless of the questions being asked by the media and supporters.

CallMeAl, my daughter completed VCE this year. Her goal was to get 100%. It was achievable, but she din't quite get there. By no means did she fail either.

Having said that, I think the club truly believes it can make finals this year, and it will try it's darndest to do so. But regardless of the result (whether it be sixth or sixteenth), hopefully the club will stick to the plan and review everything. That's the true test.

 

[theflea]

2 years would be excessive in my opinion for a coach who has still yet to prove anything in actual long term results. Happy to see 1 year added to his term before the season starts to quiet the media pack. 2 years and we could see what happened at Essendon to a Tiger great in Knights. The Bombers went to the top of my most hated clubs list because of that (they were second anyway) and they'll be staying there for a while I reckon.

I reckon DH would be happy to sign a 1 year extension with an option to a second year based on strict criteria just like players coming to an end of their careers sign. I don't do criteria so I'll leave it up to the right brain thinkers out there to speculate on what that criteria is. Thoughts?

you dont give a coach a 1 year extension. hes either good enough for 2 years or more or not at all. a 1 year extension would be counterproductive.

 

[theflea]

remember the 3 0 75 was a mission statement. its a fluid aim in a competition with so many variables dependant of perceived improvment on and off the field. it wasnt a solid guarantee. if we get to 70k membership, 0 dept and 2 finals instead of 3 0 75 its still a fair effort. also remember we were coming from very far down plus i dont think all clubs truly understood the influence of the compromised drafts.

 

[a_fighting_fury]

Hardwick has done enough to be given a new contract beyond 2012. When he took over surely everyone would agree that most of what he has done is on the positive side. I like many would agree he should be given a new 2 year deal before Round 1.

Add me to the list of many.

Dimma has demonstrated there will be no shortcuts on the road to success, and he deserves the extension to make it happen.

 

[johnno77]

nope your just terribly impatient. but hey who can blame ya.

i hope they learn a lesson.
the biggest lesson is richmond supporters are feral impatient and fools.

Sometimes you make statements that seem fair, considered and on the mark. Other times, I fair dinkum think you say things just to incite people. Mission accomplished. Richmond supporters aren't feral, Bulldogs and Collingwood supporters are feral. We're misunderstood. Impatient? Are you fu#*ing kidding me?! We've had patience rammed down our throats with 3 consecutive 5 year plans. Supporters weren't responsible for Frawley or Wallaces' demise. Results were. Fools?! How dare you. When is it ok, in your opinion to ask questions and expect results? 7 years into a new and improved 10 year plan? You get on your high horse on a daily basis about players we should have taken in the WAFL, how average our captain is, how crap our list is etc etc but when people question aspects of the club you don't agree on, you call them fools. What the hell is wrong with aiming for and expecting finals?

Speaking of fools, you see these > ,,,,,,,? They're called commas. Take them for a spin sometime.

 

[Wally Matera]

As a matter of interest, what exactly do people think Dimma has done in the past 24 months, that you find to be wrong, inaccurate or not in the best interests of the club? I cant think of much that is tangiable.

If so, then what message does it send to any coach that succeeds him if he were not to be given an extention to his current contract? That Richmond are back to the bad old days of showing no patience of foresight?

Give him a year now for peace of mind and depending on progress, we have the option to extend a further year at the end of 2012. I like the idea of a coach feeling secure, but also set him a target that rewards success.

There is no chance in hell he will not achieve 8 wins for the year. They may not come when we hope them too, but he will piss it in...

 

[johnno77]

As a matter of interest, what exactly do people think Dimma has done in the past 24 months, that you find to be wrong, inaccurate or not in the best interests of the club? I cant think of much that is tangiable.

If so, then what message does it send to any coach that succeeds him if he were not to be given an extention to his current contract? That Richmond are back to the bad old days of showing no patience of foresight?

Give him a year now for peace of mind and depending on progress, we have the option to extend a further year at the end of 2012. I like the idea of a coach feeling secure, but also set him a target that rewards success.

There is no chance in hell he will not achieve 8 wins for the year. They may not come when we hope them too, but he will piss it in...

I for one think Hardwick has done a very good job and the club overall has done a great job in pretty much every area I can think of in the last couple of years. I think Hardwick deserves and will get a contract extension. I also think he'll be comfortable with a 1 year contract with provisions for a 2nd. But like you say Wally, the provisions must be there. Handing out an extra 2 years without any safeguards has the potential for disaster.

I simply cannot understand the attitudes of some to completely write off finals for us this year (unless everything goes right for us, and everything goes wrong for our top 8 rivals) As much as impatient, rash decisions have hurt us over the years, so too has a culture of expected failure.

Look at West Coast last year as an example. Look at the Swans, Saints, Bombers. We were as good as or better than them when we played well and they all played finals. We just weren't as consistent. That should improve greatly this year. Why does it bother so many posters to aim higher than mediocrity this year?

 

[Bird Man]

We win round one he will defiantly get an extension or beat the pies or Geelong in the first couple of rounds.

if we play a similar season to last year or even go backwards... only God knows what will eventuate for players and coaching staff alike.

 

[purrrrrrrrrrfect]

nope your just terribly impatient. but hey who can blame ya.

we arent talking about the last 30 yrs here which i think gets confused with new coaches tenures.

hardwick by the end of yr 4 will probably go very close to turnuing over the entire list give or take 5 or so.

theres only two ways to build your list. that is you draft players thru the nd, rookie draft or psd. or you trade for players.

we were actually bin a worse position than gc we had to find a way to cut clean out and start again 2/3 of the list in two yrs. gc just walked up and used all those early bpicks.

what is a reasonable time frame to 1 rebuild a list while at the same time trying to cut at the end of the day about 80 90% of your list. we only have so many decent picks and we can only turn over so many in any certain yr. gc they just waltz in and load up.

how long do people think it will take gc to make finals with all their advantages. them ask how long will it takle us with all of the disadvantages.
gc beat us last yr that should tell people exactly where we are coming from.

entering yr 3 and we are still with the carving knife in hand needing to cut pretty deep.
we have very few experienced players of quality our senior core is shit and we rely on 22 yo and under and people think we should make finals.
oh i see we are not in rebuild or development for that matter.

all i can say is we are a bunch of fools who never ever look at the reality and never ever learn from the past. i really hope the club has finally changed from this sort of mentality.

im certain they should just keep their mouths shut and stop trying to give a little hope or spin bullshit to appease the masses. all it does is create false expectations.

if gale had been brutally honest and said at the end of 2009, we wont make finals for 4 yrs we would be better off now. instead he offered some hope and spin to get memberships up and we now have fools throwing it back in his face.
i hope they learn a lesson.
the biggest lesson is richmond supporters are feral impatient and fools.

Totally agree.
Finally, finally, finally we have someone with the balls to come in & do it right by having the proper rebuild we needed to have. In the middle of all the GC \ GWS consession too mind you and he knew this but still had the guts to go through with it. (And before anyone says well it was common sense or it was the only thing to do well who the bloody hell has done in the last 30 yrs at our club) He laid it straight to the board & told them exactly where we were at as a club & put across his vision for success. Any Tiger realist would acknowledge that it wouldn't/couldn't be done over a 3 yr plan. Give him the contract extension to let him finish (or attempt to finish) what he has started

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Of course it is our goal, and therefore to pass, you must reach the goal.

It is an obtainable goal, (I'm still unsure where you get this safe goal stuff from), one that was set two years ago with a plan to obtain that goal.

So far from what we hear, the club is on track with their plan to reach the goal.

They set it, they plan to achieve it. That is the whole point of setting goals. The pass mark is reaching the goal you set.

this is just it though, its an attainable goal, but a stretch one - EVERYTHING must go our way to achieve it.

- we have little midfield depth
- we have a backline that is built on potential still
- our rucks are the worst in the league
- Melbourne, Adelaide, and North all have an easier draw than us
- Essendon, Melbourne, North, and Adelaide all have a more experience core of older players to hold the kids together
- Essendon and North are much more consistent than us
- Bulldogs are fading, but on paper are still a better team than us
- Freo had a shocker of an injury year last year, and should be back in the eight this season
- Sydney have the young stock coming through which should see them maintain competitiveness still in 2012
- Saints have been gutted, but have the talent to remain a top 8 side if all goes well

With Geelong, Pies, Hawks, WCE, Blues all easily the top 5. For Richmond to make the eight, we need one of the Saints, Swans, and Freo to fail (opening up 8th position), and even then, we need to be better than North, Essendon, Adelaide, Melbourne, and Bulldogs to get that spot.

We may pass some, but I think we will struggle to pass Essendon on current form, and North thanks to their kind draw and better consistency. I think the Swans will hold, Freo will return to form, which makes 8 spot Essendons again for my money.

You have us making the 8 as a pass mark, but this is not just achieving a HD result, it would be the equivalent to getting 95% for us (given all the factors against us).

Again, it should be the thing we aim for, but to make it a pass mark is too severe, and will definitely trigger "sack Dimma" talks - after all, why keep a failed coach? You aim to get a HD, but you don't make that the pass mark - that should be your Credit level, which for us IMO would be more wins than 2011 and knocking on the door of the eight.

 

[Dr Tigris]

The pass mark from the supporters and the RFC will likely be different. Supporters want wins now and expect the future to look after itself - mainly. Although RFC supporters are becoming long term because we have had these short terms fixes and they don't work long term (Wallace anyone).
The RFC seems to be thinking of 5 years from now. So what they want will be development - of individual players, of the squad, of the playing style, of the game plan. If that development is OK but results aren't great, then a grudging pass is my guess. If we are lucky then we play finals. But right now about 8 teams are after the last 3 finals places you'd guess. That means more teams about the same level fail than succeed.
In the long run a team that focuses on making the 8 this year at the expense of development will stay mediocre. If we keep developing then in the long run we are more likely (it's all a chancy business) to be top 4 and have a shot at the title.
For example (my guess) they play Griff as a CHB to develop his game with the idea of playing him CHF eventually, that is possibly a loss this year but long term a gain. Given how close so many teams are a few things going right and we are big time, few things go wrong and we are bottom feeders.
One thing gone wrong is that the first 10 games(ish) are an appalling draw. First 5 are so tough. The second half of the season is a great draw. I'd rather it a bit more even. Lets wait until around August before getting too excited.

 

[CoggaRules]

barring any unforeseen brain fades from Dimma that seal his fate, i.e. outgunned on game days, when the team is around the mark. IMO the brains trust really need to look at the template set by the cats when they went with bomba. How long did he steer that ship? How many times along the early journey were the knives out for him, from supporters and the media?
If i recall correctly, early in about year 4 or 5, the young cats started making the media take notice, they were hyped up as the next big thing and they came out the next year and went backwards. Bomba was under the pump from the media and cats supporters, but the board stood firm and the rest is history. So much so, they could afford to let bomba go, hire a newbie and the team was in autopilot..
If Dimma has the system that the board thinks will deliver the results, they have to back him in until the players know that system back to front. ATM they are still to get hold of it properly.
And when i talk system and learning it, i talk about the whole list. The way to the promised land is that player x who is in the 2s comes in to replace player y, due to injury or loss of form and slots into the system as if he was always there.

Its the formula that has made Man Utd what it is, under Sir Alex. All players on the Man UTd books know Sir Alex's game plan back to front and what they need to do to execute it. So apart from the guns that put the icing on the cake the rest of the engine has replaceable parts that hit the ground running.

And dont be mistaken, this rebuild of the team and club, aint only about winning a flag or 2 in the next 10 years. Its about making sure we dont have 30 years of mediocrity ever again. i.e. being always near the mark and playing in September on a regular basis, which ensures our existence. Because the day will come, mark my words, when teams will have to fold and if we dont pull out of this tail spin, we will be one of the ones in the gun.

 

[theflea]

I for one think Hardwick has done a very good job and the club overall has done a great job in pretty much every area I can think of in the last couple of years. I think Hardwick deserves and will get a contract extension. I also think he'll be comfortable with a 1 year contract with provisions for a 2nd. But like you say Wally, the provisions must be there. Handing out an extra 2 years without any safeguards has the potential for disaster.

I simply cannot understand the attitudes of some to completely write off finals for us this year (unless everything goes right for us, and everything goes wrong for our top 8 rivals) As much as impatient, rash decisions have hurt us over the years, so too has a culture of expected failure.

Look at West Coast last year as an example. Look at the Swans, Saints, Bombers. We were as good as or better than them when we played well and they all played finals. We just weren't as consistent. That should improve greatly this year. Why does it bother so many posters to aim higher than mediocrity this year?

how is giving him a 2 year extension a potential disaster? giving him a 1 year with an option of another, is just saying we dont trust you to complete the job.are you afraid that he will not get us to the finals within that time? if that happens then we know he is not the man but critically we know the players arent up to it. simple as that. as i have said imo a coach needs a 5 year term to create the systems/enviroment that he wants. of all the areas in the club to date he has changed he has definately has my pass mark acheived.

 

[camiam]

finals footy this year! i am very hopeful in this side we have. very excited to see martin and cotch rip the oppo apart. martin will take it to another level again this year.

 

[johnno77]

how is giving him a 2 year extension a potential disaster? giving him a 1 year with an option of another, is just saying we dont trust you to complete the job.are you afraid that he will not get us to the finals within that time? if that happens then we know he is not the man but critically we know the players arent up to it. simple as that. as i have said imo a coach needs a 5 year term to create the systems/enviroment that he wants. of all the areas in the club to date he has changed he has definately has my pass mark acheived.

How? Do I need to point to Essendon and Knights again as an example?? How you feel about the Fighting Tiger Fund going towards paying out the unused portion of a sacked coach's salary? I would be gutted as I give more than I can afford to this club in the hope of seeing us succeed. I've got no issue with Hardwick being at Richmond for 5 years, I hope he's there for 10+. But to hand out 2 year extensions (effectively making it 3 years) without any safeguards would be just bloody irresponsible.

I don't know why I even got myself caught up in this stupid argument. I reckon we'll crack the 8 this year and this argument will have been a waste of all of our time....

 

[johnno77]

barring any unforeseen brain fades from Dimma that seal his fate, i.e. outgunned on game days, when the team is around the mark. IMO the brains trust really need to look at the template set by the cats when they went with bomba. How long did he steer that ship? How many times along the early journey were the knives out for him, from supporters and the media?
If i recall correctly, early in about year 4 or 5, the young cats started making the media take notice, they were hyped up as the next big thing and they came out the next year and went backwards. Bomba was under the pump from the media and cats supporters, but the board stood firm and the rest is history. So much so, they could afford to let bomba go, hire a newbie and the team was in autopilot..
If Dimma has the system that the board thinks will deliver the results, they have to back him in until the players know that system back to front. ATM they are still to get hold of it properly.
And when i talk system and learning it, i talk about the whole list. The way to the promised land is that player x who is in the 2s comes in to replace player y, due to injury or loss of form and slots into the system as if he was always there.

Its the formula that has made Man Utd what it is, under Sir Alex. All players on the Man UTd books know Sir Alex's game plan back to front and what they need to do to execute it. So apart from the guns that put the icing on the cake the rest of the engine has replaceable parts that hit the ground running.

And dont be mistaken, this rebuild of the team and club, aint only about winning a flag or 2 in the next 10 years. Its about making sure we dont have 30 years of mediocrity ever again. i.e. being always near the mark and playing in September on a regular basis, which ensures our existence. Because the day will come, mark my words, when teams will have to fold and if we dont pull out of this tail spin, we will be one of the ones in the gun.

Well said

 

[TOOs_Finest]

how is giving him a 2 year extension a potential disaster? giving him a 1 year with an option of another, is just saying we dont trust you to complete the job.are you afraid that he will not get us to the finals within that time? if that happens then we know he is not the man but critically we know the players arent up to it. simple as that. as i have said imo a coach needs a 5 year term to create the systems/enviroment that he wants. of all the areas in the club to date he has changed he has definately has my pass mark acheived.

How? Do I need to point to Essendon and Knights again as an example?? How you feel about the Fighting Tiger Fund going towards paying out the unused portion of a sacked coach's salary? I would be gutted as I give more than I can afford to this club in the hope of seeing us succeed. I've got no issue with Hardwick being at Richmond for 5 years, I hope he's there for 10+. But to hand out 2 year extensions (effectively making it 3 years) without any safeguards would be just bloody irresponsible.

I don't know why I even got myself caught up in this stupid argument. I reckon we'll crack the 8 this year and this argument will have been a waste of all of our time....

I kind of agree with the notion of a 12 month extension before the season kicks off, since with that he still has two more years to run - which sounds better than just one extra year.

In a compromise, I would suggest they agree to a new two year contract beginning now, and scraping the remainder of the old contract. That way, he can be rewarded for doing most things right until now, and be given the safety net knowing he has two more years to really build on the solid base which has been formed.

But that all depends on how the original contract was structured.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

I kind of agree with the notion of a 12 month extension before the season kicks off, since with that he still has two more years to run - which sounds better than just one extra year.

In a compromise, I would suggest they agree to a new two year contract beginning now, and scraping the remainder of the old contract. That way, he can be rewarded for doing most things right until now, and be given the safety net knowing he has two more years to really build on the solid base which has been formed.

But that all depends on how the original contract was structured.

agree with this

if we extend now, contract him on a renegotiated deal until end of 2013

if we wait till end of year though, it needs to be a end of 2014 deal - don't want to go through all this again 6 months later