Has Gary Ablett hurt his all time standing by moving to Gold Coast?

[RegHickeyStand]

.....

 

[allrighty]

Interesting. But none of those players went from a highly successful club and culture to a lowly club just for the money. Had the Bulldogs been successful and financial Quinlan I'm sure would not have left. The other 2 were career clubmen.
Back in those days, imagine Royce Hart crossing from the then successful Richmind to Fitzroy, just for money.

Hmmm ... good call

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

I think he showed leadership qualities at Geelong (eg. 2007 Preliminary Final, 2008 Grand Final, 2009 Grand Final, 2010 Preliminary Final).

That's just playing well; it's not necessarily being a good captain. He also used to not bother showing up for games, or he'd leave at halftime, when he was injured.

And what constitutes a "sensational" captain? As captain, his team has lost 38/44 matches (86% losses).

Having the toughest captain's job in the league (by a long way, in my opinion) and being named AA captain (2011) and vice captain (2012).

Most people judge how good a captain is by how well the team he leads performs (eg. Tuck, Voss, Waugh, Ponting) . Imagine an army that lost 86% of its battles, but had a "sensational" General.

Do people look on Ponting as being a great captain? I'm not so sure about that. Certainly not when compared to players who had inferior W/L records, such as Border, the Chappells and Taylor. Conversely, current AFL captains such as Brown, Pavlich and Watson (the best captain of 2012, according to the AFLPA) have universal respect for their leadership skills, despite having little success since they've held the position.

 

[drbono]

I

That's just playing well; it's not necessarily being a good captain. He also used to not bother showing up for games, or he'd leave at halftime, when he was injured.



Having the toughest captain's job in the league (by a long way, in my opinion) and being named AA captain (2011) and vice captain (2012).



Do people look on Ponting as being a great captain? I'm not so sure about that. Certainly not when compared to players who had inferior W/L records, such as Border, the Chappells and Taylor. Conversely, current AFL captains such as Brown, Pavlich and Watson (the best captain of 2012, according to the AFLPA) have universal respect for their leadership skills, despite having little success since they've held the position.

I respect your opinion. Becoming captain of a young side certainly requires greater responsibility and, from reports, he seems to have stepped up.

If the importance of win:loss records is disregarded, it is hard as an observer from outside the club to judge a captain's leadership skills. I believe the peer-voted AFLPA awards are more reliable than AA & media awards - interestingly, his peers have not voted him as the best captain in the AFL since his move to the Suns.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

I

I respect your opinion. Becoming captain of a young side certainly requires greater responsibility and, from reports, he seems to have stepped up.

If the importance of win:loss records is disregarded, it is hard as an observer from outside the club to judge a captain's leadership skills. I believe the peer-voted AFLPA awards are more reliable than AA & media awards - interestingly, his peers have not voted him as the best captain in the AFL since his move to the Suns.

But they did vote Jobe Watson as the best captain this year, in a team that finished 11th. And the last four winners of the award have come from teams that have averaged <13 wins and not one of them has even made it to a preliminary final. Like a lot of other things, you have to use anecdotal evidence to judge the quality of a captain. And while teams are hardly going to throw their captain under the bus publicly, the level of praise that Ablett receives from all corners, with regards to his leadership, suggests that he is handling an extremely difficult job exceptionally well.

 

[drbono]

But they did vote Jobe Watson as the best captain this year, in a team that finished 11th. And the last four winners of the award have come from teams that have averaged <13 wins and not one of them has even made it to a preliminary final. Like a lot of other things, you have to use anecdotal evidence to judge the quality of a captain. And while teams are hardly going to throw their captain under the bus publicly, the level of praise that Ablett receives from all corners, with regards to his leadership, suggests that he is handling an extremely difficult job exceptionally well.

AFLPA-voted "Best Captains" & their respective ladder placings since 2000:

2000: Carey = 4th
2001: Voss = 2nd
2002: Voss = 2nd
2003: Voss = 3rd
2004: Voss = 2nd
2005: Ricciuto = 1st
2006: Ricciuto = 2nd
2007: Brown = 10th
2008: Harley = 1st
2009: Brown = 6th
2010: Kirk = 5th
2011: Judd = 5th
2012: Watson = 11th

Clearly, the AFL players value the importance of win:loss records & overall team performance in assessing who the "Best Captain" is. Since 2000, the average final ladder position of the "best captain" is 4th.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

AFLPA-voted "Best Captains" & their respective ladder placings since 2000:

2000: Carey = 4th
2001: Voss = 2nd
2002: Voss = 2nd
2003: Voss = 3rd
2004: Voss = 2nd
2005: Ricciuto = 1st
2006: Ricciuto = 2nd
2007: Brown = 10th
2008: Harley = 1st
2009: Brown = 6th
2010: Kirk = 5th
2011: Judd = 5th
2012: Watson = 11th

Clearly, the AFL players value the importance of win:loss records & overall team performance in assessing who the "Best Captain" is. Since 2000, the average final ladder position of the "best captain" is 4th.

And since 2007, the average final ladder position is a lot lower than that. You could argue just as easily that only one out of the last eight recipients has made the grand final that year and that the last winner to double up as the premiership captain was nearly a decade ago. The players would give some consideration to the W/L, but then why would Brown, Kirk, or Judd (or Watson, of course) have won the award, ahead of one of the captains of the teams that were far better than Brisbane, Sydney and Carlton in those years? Team success has a weaker correlation to the captain of the year in recent times than it does to the Brownlow Medallist.

 

[drbono]

And since 2007, the average final ladder position is a lot lower than that. You could argue just as easily that only one out of the last eight recipients has made the grand final that year and that the last winner to double up as the premiership captain was nearly a decade ago. The players would give some consideration to the W/L, but then why would Brown, Kirk, or Judd (or Watson, of course) have won the award, ahead of one of the captains of the teams that were far better than Brisbane, Sydney and Carlton in those years? Team success has a weaker correlation to the captain of the year in recent times than it does to the Brownlow Medallist.

Actually, since 2007, the average ladder position is still 6th.

Ladder position reflects an overall season. Finals performances account for a handful of games.

Whichever way you look at it, the team of the AFLPA's "Best Captain" has made finals 11 out of the last 13 years (that's 85% of the time) and the lowest finish during this time was 11th (this year).

The Suns have finished 17th & 17th under Ablett. His footballing peers, and I, will not adulate his captaincy skills until he leads his team away from the bottom of the ladder.

 

[randyzany]

How do you measure something so subjective anyway?

Just because GAJ regularly suffers from leather piosoning, smiles like a goofy mofo and seems to willingly give instructions to the suns younger brigade whenever possible does not necessarily mean he's a 'good' (let alone great) captain.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

Actually, since 2007, the average ladder position is still 6th.

Ladder position reflects an overall season. Finals performances account for a handful of games.

Whichever way you look at it, the team of the AFLPA's "Best Captain" has made finals 11 out of the last 13 years (that's 85% of the time) and the lowest finish during this time was 11th (this year).

The Suns have finished 17th & 17th under Ablett. His footballing peers, and I, will not adulate his captaincy skills until he leads his team away from the bottom of the ladder.

And whichever way you look at it, the trend is that team success is becoming far less important in the players' eyes than it was a decade ago. If Watson and Ablett swapped teams, do you think the Suns would be any better off?

Seventeen captains aren't named captain of the year by the AFLPA. You can still be a fantastic captain, without receiving an award for it. And going by everything that the people who would know (i.e. people involved at Gold Coast) say, that's exactly what Gary Ablett is.

 

[catman 71]

Under what circumstances is it ever okay for a player to leave a club, and join another?

I know that it can't be for money, because, heaven forbid, how can they think of their own future, when some supporters, who shall remain nameless (e.g. Me), who don't have the talent to play AFL, expect players to show loyalty to the fans, when some of these fans don't show them any.

I don't agree with Gazza leaving, but am glad that we got what we could from him.

If some of you hate Gazza so much, you shouldn't be angry that he has left, you should be glad! You probably saw him as a list-clogger anyway (Me can't think of one thing Ablett ever did right), and he freed up salary cap room, so he did you a favour!

I believe that you can only be upset about a player's "defection" if you see that player as being a big loss to your side to begin with. When people like Me put Ablett's playing ability on par with Mark Blake, then I don't see what his issue is?

 

[catman 71]

How do you measure something so subjective anyway?

Just because GAJ regularly suffers from leather piosoning, smiles like a goofy mofo and seems to willingly give instructions to the suns younger brigade whenever possible does not necessarily mean he's a 'good' (let alone great) captain.

If this is how you think fo him, then you should be glad that he is gone, then!

 

[thegerman]

He actually could have ended the game the most decorated player of all time, given his form had he stayed at Geelong he would most likely be looking forward to his third Brownlow and 4th Premiership in a few weeks time.

What a waste. The boy got terrible advice.

This pretty much sums it up in my view. He had a chance to not only be one of the greatest ever players, but also, to play in one of the greatest teams ever.
For me the worst thing is that he could have easily surpassed Bob Davis as one of our most liked players. Unfortunately now, there will be a bitter taste in a
few supporters mouths when they mention Jnr.

Whilst I can see that he is a champion and always will be of the GFC, it is that bitter pill that some cannot. And that is sad.

 

[My Tilly]

I think he enhanced his reputation.

Had to carry that club for years and when he injured his shoulder, the Gold Coast Suns went from being semi-competitive to absolutely rotten and an automatic 4 points for opposing teams.

 

[Drunkcat]

He has in my eyes it's like getting back together with a old flame it's fun but the real excitement is just not the same...That's how i feel about Gaz now

 

[geelong_crazy26]

I think he enhanced his reputation.

Had to carry that club for years and when he injured his shoulder, the Gold Coast Suns went from being semi-competitive to absolutely rotten and an automatic 4 points for opposing teams.

Hi old thread. Where did this come from all of a sudden??

I think history has shown that moving to gold coast hurt his stance historically.

The games ablett played up there in the gold coast were basically cellar dwellar games watched by nobody on a sunday afternoon and counted for nothing.

The amount of discussion and exposure he would have gotten to blockbuster games geelong vs hawthorn at the MCG, finals matches, packed out MCG stadiums...

His time at gold coast was basically dead rubber games with no impact to be had or huge outcomes to be influenced... Mostly just him gathering 40 touches a game getting flogged by 60 points each week.

People recal star players on big stages playing for good teams more memorably because the occasiom is meaingful and the outcome is more influential. Abletts tenure at gold coast was very meaningless and unimpactful

Should have stayed at geelong if it was about football and his stance in the game, but its obvious it was about money for ablett and he did what was in his best financial interest, not what was in his footballing stance interest

 

[geelong_crazy26]

He has in my eyes it's like getting back together with a old flame it's fun but the real excitement is just not the same...That's how i feel about Gaz now

Was a shadow of his former self coming back to geelong.

 

[ATSAM]

Was a shadow of his former self coming back to geelong.

And a lot older so what did we expect. Has still shown his sublime skill and effort on many, many occasions

 

[Spazz Cat]

I don't think so. Made him more famous.
Was influenced by LeBron IMO.
Moved and did the big press conference when LeBron did and then moved back.
On the other hand could of had possibly 2 more flags if he stayed.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

And a lot older so what did we expect. Has still shown his sublime skill and effort on many, many occasions

Yep for sure. Adapted very well to his linitations as he got older modifying his game.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

I don't think so. Made him more famous.
Was influenced by LeBron IMO.
Moved and did the big press conference when LeBron did and then moved back.
On the other hand could of had possibly 2 more flags if he stayed.

I think his footy standing in the game would have been even greater if he stayed with geelong. Would have been in the spotlight playing big finals and blockbuster games.But it was about money in the end so im sure he has no regrets and its a fair enough choice he made.

 

[Isaac Norm Smith]

Hi old thread. Where did this come from all of a sudden??

I think history has shown that moving to gold coast hurt his stance historically.

The games ablett played up there in the gold coast were basically cellar dwellar games watched by nobody on a sunday afternoon and counted for nothing.

The amount of discussion and exposure he would have gotten to blockbuster games geelong vs hawthorn at the MCG, finals matches, packed out MCG stadiums...

His time at gold coast was basically dead rubber games with no impact to be had or huge outcomes to be influenced... Mostly just him gathering 40 touches a game getting flogged by 60 points each week.

People recal star players on big stages playing for good teams more memorably because the occasiom is meaingful and the outcome is more influential. Abletts tenure at gold coast was very meaningless and unimpactful

Should have stayed at geelong if it was about football and his stance in the game, but its obvious it was about money for ablett and he did what was in his best financial interest, not what was in his footballing stance interest

Hard to disagree with any of that. I have nothing against him, how could I, but it's a bitter pill to swallow knowing we could have won another flag or two if he remained at the club. 2013 being a prime example. We'll never know I guess..

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Hard to disagree with any of that. I have nothing against him, how could I, but it's a bitter pill to swallow knowing we could have won another flag or two if he remained at the club. 2013 being a prime example. We'll never know I guess..

2013 is the one i also think he would have potentially won us.

I imagine what would be leigh matthews stance in the history of the game if he won no premierships with hawthorn and instead went off to a bottom of the ladder side for the peak of his career?? Would people remember leigh matthews the same??

Would people remember hodge the same for his career if instead of being a two time norm smith medalist he sat down the bottom of the ladder playing dead rubber games on a sunday arvo as opposed to 100,000 in a final Getting BOG’s??

These things heavily influence how people recall your career and your standing in the game.

Ablett should have always stayed with geelong and been a one club player. But money talks and it talks in a big way

 

[Isaac Norm Smith]

2013 is the one i also think he would have potentially won us.

I imagine what would be leigh matthews stance in the history of the game if he won no premierships with hawthorn and instead went off to a bottom of the ladder side for the peak of his career?? Would people remember leigh matthews the same??

Would people remember hodge the same for his career if instead of being a two time norm smith medalist he sat down the bottom of the ladder playing dead rubber games on a sunday arvo as opposed to 100,000 in a final Getting BOG’s??

These things heavily influence how people recall your career and your standing in the game.

Ablett should have always stayed with geelong and been a one club player. But money talks and it talks in a big way

Completely agree. I wonder whether he regrets going to GC? He probably doesn't due to the financial aspect, but it's likely only him and those close to him will ever know.

 

[Spazz Cat]

I think his footy standing in the game would have been even greater if he stayed with geelong. Would have been in the spotlight playing big finals and blockbuster games.But it was about money in the end so im sure he has no regrets and its a fair enough choice he made.

Yeah I can see that. And yeah it was a fair enough choice. Couldn't blame him.