Has Jack Martin finally arrived ?

Tiger71

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Pace and pressure is all Castagna brings, whereas Betts still has his elite goal sense, composure and is better at bringing others into the game. If he played for Richmond, they’d adapt and others would compensation for whatever deficiencies Betts would have, mainly due to his age.

Castagna is pretty average overall. He’s done well to earn a spot in a dominant Richmond team, but he’d struggle in a weaker lineup. Like Butler this year, he’d be one short injury stint away from being dislodged.
Jesus you really know nothing about how we play and the real value of our smalls lol. You keep telling yourself we have a team of average role players and while you do, we will continue to contend while you keep cooking lol.

George one major issue is his accuracy, look at his score involvement, assists, and actual total shots on goals and you call him limited...wow. it's good to barrack for a side, but don't be a fool when discussing the opposition.

You also obviously missed Georges value in big games like PF's and GF's. Now you keep saying our smalls have platued and have no growth. People who know footy will tell you the value of our smalls is not just the goals they kick or pressure they bring, it's there ability all game to press up the ground, add extra outs for our mids and defenders, which in turn makes our system work. Most backline don't have the endurance to go with them all game.

They are the reason in every game day thread people ask, why do the tigers always have more at the conrest? Or why do they a always seem to have someone free out the back, or why can Grimes always be allowed to anchor alone in the back half.

Mate, keep over rating your list that's fine but stop talking about a club you have zero knowledge off.
 

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La Dispute

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Jesus you really know nothing about how we play and the real value of our smalls lol. You keep telling yourself we have a team of average role players and while you do, we will continue to contend while you keep cooking lol.

George one major issue is his accuracy, look at his score involvement, assists, and actual total shots on goals and you call him limited...wow. it's good to barrack for a side, but don't be a fool when discussing the opposition.

You also obviously missed Georges value in big games like PF's and GF's. Now you keep saying our smalls have platued and have no growth. People who know footy will tell you the value of our smalls is not just the goals they kick or pressure they bring, it's there ability all game to press up the ground, add extra outs for our mids and defenders, which in turn makes our system work. Most backline don't have the endurance to go with them all game.

They are the reason in every game day thread people ask, why do the tigers always have more at the conrest? Or why do they a always seem to have someone free out the back, or why can Grimes always be allowed to anchor alone in the back half.

Mate, keep over rating your list that's fine but stop talking about a club you have zero knowledge off.
In a team of 22 players and under constraint of a salary cap there will always be average players in good teams - Richmond just happen to have quite a few: Soldo, Baker, Castagna, Broad.

For these guys pressure is a non-negotiable, as it’s a big part of what they are assessed on as players on a week-to-week basis. They don’t bring this, they don’t get a game. Goals, assists et al are bonuses, but in playing in a dominant team their stats are going to be inflated.

Put them in the Gold Coast lineup and they regress to the mean. Look at Miles and Corey Ellis for some clear cut examples of this.
 

RobR

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If Martin's goal was an easy pay day, plenty of mates to party and get drunk with and to have September's off for the next few years, then he's made a great choice.

If his goal was to become the best footballer he can be, he's made a terrible choice.
Who do you think Jack would pick as his drinking buddies?
 

Soapy V

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Carlton will not make the finals in 2020. Still too reliant on mature players and the younger group still need more development. We should be aiming for 10 wins. In 2021 we should be pushing for finals (5-8).
If we had a very good run with injuries I reckon finals is a possibility. I see a 10-14 win season. Next year is when I think we are a genuine finals side.

Agree though it's important that we stop relying on Kruezer Murphy Simpson & Curnow is 2020. Need players to go past them.
 

Do the Dew

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In a team of 22 players and under constraint of a salary cap there will always be average players in good teams - Richmond just happen to have quite a few: Soldo, Baker, Castagna, Broad.

For these guys pressure is a non-negotiable, as it’s a big part of what they are assessed on as players on a week-to-week basis. They don’t bring this, they don’t get a game. Goals, assists et al are bonuses, but in playing in a dominant team their stats are going to be inflated.

Put them in the Gold Coast lineup and they regress to the mean. Look at Miles and Corey Ellis for some clear cut examples of this.
‘Clear cut examples’.

Both Miles and Ellis couldn’t get a game for us in their last 2-3 yrs, were permanently playing 2s. Whereas the other 4 players you mentioned are either best 22 or first in. So not quite as ‘clear cut’ as you say.

If Jack Martin wasn’t getting a game for the 18th best side, how’s he supposed to miraculously improve and be good for the 16th..? That’s a bit more ‘clear cut’ I’d say.


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La Dispute

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‘Clear cut examples’.

Both Miles and Ellis couldn’t get a game for us in their last 2-3 yrs, were permanently playing 2s. Whereas the other 4 players you mentioned are either best 22 or first in. So not quite as ‘clear cut’ as you say.

If Jack Martin wasn’t getting a game for the 18th best side, how’s he supposed to miraculously improve and be good for the 16th..? That’s a bit more ‘clear cut’ I’d say.

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If there were more talented players playing the same position they would have overtaken Castagna by now, but the reality is there aren’t so he’s getting games by default. In terms of talent he’d be on the last tier, with players I’ve mentioned. Soldo, Broad, Baker. Players that are short on talent, but have found a niche in the Richmond lineup so they’re getting games, and it’s far more important to maintain a consistent team. Miles and Ellis were of similar caliber, and had they stayed and played in a premiership instead no one would have batted an eyelid.

Martin had checked out by the second half of the year and was subsequently dropped. A similar thing happened the year before with Jarryd Lyons, who refused to run defensively and was sent to the NEAFL. He was then revitalised at Brisbane (surprise, surprise a top 4 team), and was one of the their better players.

What always gets overlooked is how much easier it is playing in a quality team if you’re (Jayden) short on talent, in terms of how refined and simple your role is. In particular in a team like the Tigers to which it’s core have had years of experience together, roughly being developed in the same rebuilding period and also taking into account how stringent the Tigers are with structures. That makes it far easier to play on instinct, knowing the defence will be able to cover for any breakdowns. It also gives them a level of confidence having stars in each area of the ground, allowing the lesser players to play on autopilot, as the heavy lifting is left to Martin, Cotchin, Riewoldt, Grimes and co.

I’d back Martin to improve under Betts’ tutelage, and just generally being freed to play his natural position up forward rather than be shoehorned into a full-time midfield role which isn’t really his go.
 
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Tiger71

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If there were more talented players playing the same position they would have overtaken Castagna by now, but the reality is there aren’t so he’s getting games by default. In terms of talent he’d be on the last tier, with players I’ve mentioned. Soldo, Broad, Baker. Players that are short on talent, but have found a niche in the Richmond lineup so they’re getting games, and it’s far more important to maintain a consistent team. Miles and Ellis were of similar caliber, and had they stayed and played in a premiership instead no one would have batted an eyelid.

Martin had checked out by the second half of the year and was subsequently dropped. A similar thing happened the year before with Jarryd Lyons, who refused to run defensively and was sent to the NEAFL. He was then revitalised at Brisbane (surprise, surprise a top 4 team), and was one of the their better players.

What always gets overlooked is how much easier it is playing in a quality team if you’re (Jayden) short on talent, in terms of how refined and simple your role is. In particular in a team like the Tigers to which it’s core have had years of experience together, roughly being developed in the same rebuilding period and also taking into account how stringent the Tigers are with structures. That makes it far easier to play on instinct, knowing the defence will be able to cover for any breakdowns. It also gives them a level of confidence having stars in each area of the ground, allowing the lesser players to play on autopilot, as the heavy lifting is left to Martin, Cotchin, Riewoldt, Grimes and co.

I’d back Martin to improve under Betts’ tutelage, and just generally being freed to play his natural position up forward rather than be shoehorned into a full-time midfield role which isn’t really his go.
We can't win here. When you say limited talent and we bring up a fact based counter, you just fall back to "our system" allows them to look good lol.

As to Martin, you say he will flourish playing his natural game, for your sake I hope not as his natural game has zero defense pressure. It's the reason he was dropped but hey, you keep believing he checked out.

The last thing the blues need is another small that won't chase or do the team things, but if you are happy for Martin to do so, good stuff
 

OnceWeWereKings

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If Martin's goal was an easy pay day, plenty of mates to party and get drunk with and to have September's off for the next few years, then he's made a great choice.

If his goal was to become the best footballer he can be, he's made a terrible choice.
Your trolling is so 2019.
Get a new trick, you’re boring.
 

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amcre

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Yeh Castagna is an average player being propped up by a good team - he isn’t a patch on the GOAT small forward, even at 45 years old. Castagna could still go the way of Dan Butler or Jacob Townsend.

I rate Bolton, Rioli has plateaued since 2017 but may still improve.

Not sure what the point of the comparison is though? You’re contrasting three players who’re still developing with a guy who’s 4-5 years past his very best. We are expecting moderate output from him, but he is largely a devepmental aid for Martin and Cuningham. Their improvement will signal the success of Betts’ re-inclusion in the team.
What you are missing in the Rioli v Betts comparison is the km's run and defensive pressure. Completely different players. I think if Carlton were looking long term then Butler would have been a much better investment, however they got sucked in by the story of Betts coming home. He was dropped a few times this year at a struggling Crows.

Martin at worst should be a decent classy role player and at best a genuine talent who is a top 5 player at the club. The projections of him when he was 17 seem to be ridiculous though.


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amcre

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Small forwards kick goals first and foremost...Betts still shits on all those you listed for goals champ.
It's not 2001. Small forwards at least in successful teams work hard to keep the ball locked into the defensive half. Goals are an after thought.

Bolton and Rioli are miles ahead of Betts. Castagna is a battler but again he is an athlete who runs defensively. They then spread the goals off who gets on the end of it.




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La Dispute

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We can't win here. When you say limited talent and we bring up a fact based counter, you just fall back to "our system" allows them to look good lol.

As to Martin, you say he will flourish playing his natural game, for your sake I hope not as his natural game has zero defense pressure. It's the reason he was dropped but hey, you keep believing he checked out.

The last thing the blues need is another small that won't chase or do the team things, but if you are happy for Martin to do so, good stuff
I’m not too sure why Richmond supporters are so affronted by the notion that their success is geared by their team-first mentality and rigid system and game plan. It’s a huge compliment, and a credit to the coaching group and football department they’ve managed to bring out the very best in 22 players, quite a few of which don’t have a lot of natural talent, but are getting maximum output out of. Castagna is one of these players.

Richmond don’t have a particularly decentralised best 22, as opposed to say North, St Kilda or Port Adelaide - they have a number of star players who in the best few for their position (Riewoldt, Lynch up forward, Martin, Cotchin in the middle, Grimes and formerly Rance in defence) who do much of the heavy lifting and set the team up. Richmond also have Houli and Vlastuin as unsung heroes here. They’ve then got another tier of consistently solid contributors who are just below genuine stars (Prestia, Edwards et al) and then a stack of role players who don’t have a lot of natural talent or are too young to contribute in a big way. With so much top-end talent, and even players like Prestia on big contracts, Richmond were never going to field a team of stars.

Martin still has reasonable tackle numbers (5 per game IIRC), so it’s not as though he’s completely deficient defensively. I’m also not sure what you’re alluding to WRT a lack of defensive pressure in the squad overall. This hasn’t been an issue since 2015, and has been a non-negotiable since Bolton was appointed.
 
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