Has Lance Franklin surpassed Wayne Carey as the greatest key forward of the modern era?

[Snake_Baker]

Who comes close to Franklin in this era?

As a true KPF?

Kennedy is better.

 

[RUNVS]

I partially agree with you, in that defense is far more sophisticated now than it was even 10 years ago. However, as a key forward in those days, you would come up against a quality one on one key defender nearly every week, something that rarely happens today. Not to mention in those days, the game was a fair bit more 'physical' than it is now, in the sense that there was a lot more body on body, grappling, and a few other tactics that are well and truly frowned upon today.

See I would argue defence is much better now, because lets look at the top 30 goal kickers and when they played (going by majority of the years in their career)

1910 to 1919 - 1
1920 to 1929 - 2
1930 to 1939 - 4
1960 to 1969 - 1
1970 to 1979 - 6
1980 to 1989 - 4
1990 to 1999 - 5
2000 to 2009 - 6
2010 to 2017 - 1

So basically, goal kicking became much easier in the 1970's, and then in about 2005 it suddenly became a lot harder around that period. The 2005 mark (or around there) was the death of easy goal kicking for big key forwards, with 2009 being the final death.

Also Buddy is the only one who is on the 2010 to 2017, and while this decade is not complete, it is safe to say no one currently playing is going to break into the top 30 except for Buddy, at least who played majority of their career in the 2010 to 2019 era. The only one who might is Jack Riewoldt.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

As a key forward?

Kennedy is better.

Seriously?

They are the same age (30)...

Franklin has kicked 350 more goals!
Franklin has 7 AA's to Kennedy's 3.
Franklin has 4 Coleman's to Kennedy's 2.
Franklin has 1 B&F (premiership year) to Kennedy's 0.
Franklin is a better finals performer.
Franklin gets (much) more of the ball.
Franklin is better around the ground.
Franklin is a better tackler.
Franklin even averages more contested marks.

Not sure how you came to this conclusion (perhaps it is to do with your own personal definition of a key forward given Franklin does not fit the 'traditional' mould?)

 

[Snake_Baker]

As a true KPF?

Kennedy is better.

 

[The Joker]

This is the epitome of a strawman argument. Carey fed goals to Longmire and smalls. That's what CHFs did.

If you think Franklin is as good or better than Carey you never saw Carey play.

At least when I made that point I didn't pretend as if Franklin never brought his teammates into the game...

 

[Guardian Hawk]

As a true KPF?

Kennedy is better.

Yep, that's what I expected. Your own personal definition (against all the evidence).

 

[Nuggets73]

I'd take Dermie for my own sheer enjoyment, not much between them.

2nd most goals kicked in grand finals ... the best big game player I’ve ever seen

 

[The Joker]

His allround game...

Can you break this down please. What do you see as the key aspects of being the greatest?

 

[Trav 20]

As I've mentioned, Carey is the best I've seen.

However, I still struggle with "far more dominant in his era". No player is far more dominant than Franklin. Franklin would be a top 20 player of all time. Nobody is 'far' ahead. Also, Carey's era favoured the individual, particularly the key forward. Franklin's era is far more focussed on sacrifice and team goals (hence Coleman tallies drastically reducing as just one example). In his era, Carey was considered the best but other key forwards (Dunstall, Lockett, GAS) were all very close (with many picking others as the best of that era). Who comes close to Franklin in this era? He is head and shoulders above.

I understand your concern with the use of the word "far", but I need to point something out to you.

I'm not comparing Carey to Lockett or Dunstall. They were full forwards and Carey was a CHF. When Pagan's Paddock came in midway through 96 Carey started playing between CHF and FF, but I still consider him a CHF due to the ground he covered.

Carey was quite easily the most dominant CHF of his era. But it was obviously a far more positional game.

Franklin is a star, who has some incredible quarters and sometimes games, but he's reached nowhere near the week in week out consistency of Carey. Franklin is obviously the best tall forward in his era, but he doesn't put the fear into the opposition Carey did.

 

[krisholio14]

See I would argue defence is much better now, because lets look at the top 30 goal kickers and when they played (going by majority of the years in their career)

1910 to 1919 - 1
1920 to 1929 - 2
1930 to 1939 - 4
1960 to 1969 - 1
1970 to 1979 - 6
1980 to 1989 - 3
1990 to 1999 - 5
2000 to 2009 - 7
2010 to 2017 - 1

So basically, goal kicking became much easier in the 1970's, and then in about 2005 it suddenly became a lot harder around that period. The 2005 mark (or around there) was the death of easy goal kicking for big key forwards, with 2009 being the final death.

Also Buddy is the only one who is on the 2010 to 2017, and while this decade is not complete, it is safe to say no one currently playing is going to break into the top 30 except for Buddy, at least who played majority of their career in the 2010 to 2019 era. The only one who might is Jack Riewoldt.

I said defense is better. Don't confuse a more strategic and organized defense as a unit with better individual defenders overall. If you put todays defenders in Carey's time, all but maybe Rance would get destroyed, because there are next to zero that know how to play one on one any more.

The difference as much as the quality of defensive strategy is the complete move away from positional play. Teams play in loosely defined 'units' as opposed to positions. This is why this discussion exists in the first place. Franklin in the 90's and prior would have been a flanker, maybe even a winger. He has never been a true CHF even though he occasionally plays there and at FF. Transport Carey to today, he wouldn't be a CHF, he'd be a 'forward', or at best a 'tall forward'. I don't buy this 'key forward' stuff any more. There are very very few players in the league you could call a key forward or defender these days, unlike previous years where every team had several. They just don't play it that way any more.

 

[Trav 20]

Can you break this down please. What do you see as the key aspects of being the greatest?

Contested marking, high marking, kicking skills off both feet, footy IQ, balance i.e. centre of gravity, leadership, courage, aggression, timing, and the ability to stand up in critical moments within games.

Carey had it all. Franklin has some of it.

 

[RUNVS]

I said defense is better. Don't confuse a more strategic and organized defense as a unit with better individual defenders overall. If you put todays defenders in Carey's time, all but maybe Rance would get destroyed.

The difference as much as the quality of defensive strategy is the complete move away from positional play. Teams play in loosely defined 'units' as opposed to positions. This is why this discussion exists in the first place. Franklin in the 90's and prior would have been a flanker, maybe even a winger. He has never been a true CHF even though he occasionally plays there and at FF. Transport Carey to today, he wouldn't be a CHF, he'd be a 'forward', or at best a 'tall forward'. I don't buy this 'key forward' stuff any more. There are very very few players in the league you could call a key forward or defender these days, unlike previous years where every team had several. They just don't play it that way any more.

Transported to today Carey would be a medium forward, as 192cm is quite short for today. Not a lot of gun 192cm forwards.

 

[krisholio14]

Contested marking, high marking, kicking skills off both feet, footy IQ, balance i.e. centre of gravity, leadership, courage, aggression, timing, and the ability to stand up in critical moments within games.

Carey had it all. Franklin has some of it.

That's it. There was nothing Carey couldn't do on the footy field, and he showed that time and time again.

 

[The Joker]

In his era, Carey was considered the best but other key forwards (Dunstall, Lockett, GAS) were all very close (with many picking others as the best of that era).

A truer word has never been written. Come the turn of the century you wouldn't have been wrong whoever you picked, now some say there is massive gaps between them!

 

[krisholio14]

Transported to today Carey would be a medium forward, as 192cm is quite short for today. Not a lot of gun 192cm forwards.

Exactly. He'd be playing a completely different role nowdays, but would still dominate, because he was the master of pushing up then pushing back and running onto a mark. Very few defenders today (or of any era) could match his combo of size, strength, stamina and mobility.

 

[Trav 20]

A truer word has never been written. Come the turn of the century you wouldn't have been wrong whoever you picked, now some say there is massive gaps between them!

Who ?

It's silly comparing FFs of that era to CHFs.

 

[Snake_Baker]

Yep, that's what I expected. Your own personal definition (against all the evidence).

Marks inside 50

Year:Kennedy:Franklin

2017: 3.79: 2.71
2016: 3.78: 2.85
2015: 4.04: 2.54
2014: 2.80: 3.45
2013: 2.95: 2.24
2012: Kennedy missed 16 matches
2011: 2.95: 2.24

5-1 in Kennedy's favor

Contested Marks (not factoring the high likelihood that Franklin took more of these outside the 50 metre arc)

Year:Kennedy:Franklin

2017: 1.79: 1.67
2016: 1.83: 1.62
2015: 1.56: 1.00
2014: 0.85: 2.32
2013: 1.62: 1.24
2012: Kennedy missed 16 matches
2011: 2.22: 1.77

5-1 in Kennedy's favor

Goals

Year:Kennedy:Franklin

2017: 3.63: 3.04
2016: 3.57: 3.12
2015: 3.20: 2.76
2014: 3.05: 3.59
2013: 2.86: 2.86
2012: Kennedy missed 16 matches
2011: 2.57: 3.73

3-1-2 in Kennedy's favor

I stand by my comment that Kennedy is a better true KPF for this era.

 

[Snake_Baker]

Exactly. He'd be playing a completely different role nowdays, but would still dominate, because he was the master of pushing up then pushing back and running onto a mark. Very few defenders today 9or of any era) could match his combo of size, strength, stamina and mobility.

He'd be a ruck rover, in the Fyfe mould.

 

[The Joker]

Who ?

It's silly comparing FFs of that era to CHFs.

Have a look around, there are plenty!

Not when looking for the GOAT, everyone is compared to each other, like the Ablett F&S!

 

[Guardian Hawk]

Marks inside 50

Year:Kennedy:Franklin

2017: 3.79: 2.71
2016: 3.78: 2.85
2015: 4.04: 2.54
2014: 2.80: 3.45
2013: 2.95: 2.24
2012: Kennedy missed 16 matches
2011: 2.95: 2.24

Contested Marks (not factoring the high likelihood that Franklin took more of these outside the 50 metre arc)

Year:Kennedy:Franklin

2017: 1.79: 1.67
2016: 1.83: 1.62
2015: 1.56: 1.00
2014: 0.85: 2.32
2013: 1.62: 1.24
2012: Kennedy missed 16 matches
2011: 2.22: 1.77

Goals

Year:Kennedy:Franklin

2017: 3.63: 3.04
2016: 3.57: 3.12
2015: 3.20: 2.76
2014: 3.05: 3.59
2013: 2.86: 2.86
2012: Kennedy missed 16 matches
2011: 2.57: 3.73

I have already raised their career averages in each of those stats AND all the others (Franklin leads all - often by a lot - except for marks - with Kennedy 0.4 marks ahead). No doubt Kennedy has been comparable in a couple of areas over a few seasons. What about before that? Where was Kennedy? Franklin was being compared to Fevola when he was at the top, Brown and Hall before that, Riewoldt and Riewoldt in between. Franklin has done it for over a decade. Kennedy for a handful of recent seasons after years of being average (when Franklin was winning Colemans, flags, B&F's, kicking the tonne, etc).

 

[Trav 20]

Have a look around, there are plenty!

Not when looking for the GOAT, everyone is compared to each other, like the Ablett F&S!

When I saw you'd quoted me I thought you might be thanking me for providing the "all-round" reference you craved. But, alas, no.

 

[Snake_Baker]

What about before that? Where was Kennedy?

Growing in to the body of a KPF.

Franklin had his HFF skills to fall back on.

True KPF's almost always have delayed development. Usually the longest, only behind ruckmen. Most good footy judges know this.

 

[The Joker]

Contested marking, high marking, kicking skills off both feet, footy IQ, balance i.e. centre of gravity, leadership, courage, aggression, timing, and the ability to stand up in critical moments within games.

Carey had it all. Franklin has some of it.

But there is so much more to a player, why stop there, please don' tell me it's because Franklin would be seen to have Carey covered in those areas?!?

Contested marking - marks on the lead
high marking - Ball at ground level
kicking skills off both feet - precision around the ground
footy IQ - how did you measure this?
balance i.e. centre of gravity - Buddy moves like a small forward but stands 6 foot 6
leadership - you can only judge this as Buddy was never a Captain
courage - no argument here, this is why everyone needed to watch Carey play the game!
aggression - when Bud gets angry people want him suspended for being to hard
timing - I'm not sure how to view this one
and the ability to stand up in critical moments within games - like finals football, you should have a look at Buds finals record

 

[Guardian Hawk]

Growing in to the body of a KPF.

Franklin had his HFF skills to fall back on.

True KPF's almost always have delayed development. Usually the longest, only behind ruckmen. Most good footy judges know this.

Not the exceptional ones - like Carey was and Franklin is. It's a large part of what seperates them - continued domination over a long period of time.

Kennedy took half his career to get going.

He has been comparable in one or two areas for less than half the time. It would be like me cherry picking a couple of seasons and trying to tell you McKernan was better than Carey.

 

[The Joker]

Contested marking, high marking, kicking skills off both feet, footy IQ, balance i.e. centre of gravity, leadership, courage, aggression, timing, and the ability to stand up in critical moments within games.

Carey had it all. Franklin has some of it.

The ability to stand up in critical moments within games - This just needs to be read!


What happened when Carey watched to see whether Franklin could step up in the third quarter?

In a seven-minute burst, Franklin exploded.

1min 56sec: Franklin gathers the ball deep in the pocket and squares it to Jack Gunston, setting up a goal.

5min 3sec: He looms at half-forward, collects the ball and kicks a long behind.

6min 8sec: He seizes on a Ben Rutten fumble, charges towards goal and, after drawing an opponent, handballs to Luke Breust in the goalsquare for a goal.

7min 39sec: He wins the hard ball and his handball to Xavier Ellis results in a Matt Suckling goal.

8min 31sec: Gets on the scoreboard with a snapped goal.

Unstoppable. Irresistible. Extraordinary. From five points down to 14 points up, Franklin changed the momentum of the game. Then he kicked the sealer late in the final term.

"Not too many players believe in themselves like that, especially after a quieter half of football," said Carey, a dual premiership great who played 23 finals.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...102550ca6?sv=1a6eda538e1fba9add7841d2b0428b7d