Has Lance Franklin surpassed Wayne Carey as the greatest key forward of the modern era?

[LoungeLizard]

This makes no sense.

To compare individual players, we have to pretend they're in the same team?

Since when is that the sensible way to frame it?

Bwahahahaha, yet you want to compare players from different eras, WOW

 

[ashep]

Interesting question. Maybe if he won a flag or two with Sydney I'd place Buddy ahead, but as it stands at this moment, I'd still rate Carey. I just think Carey had less weaknesses as a player than Buddy, but hell .... I'd like either of them in my forward line

This is a pretty good summation.

 

[thecatattack]

Don't need to tell Hawks fans twice.

He and GAJ are far and away the best players of recent years.

it seems a lot of people will only start to realise how good he was when his career is done

then outcomes the "one of the greatest players ever" posts from those people

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Bwahahahaha, yet you want to compare players from different eras, WOW

That's right.

Do you have some weird mental block about that?

Tell me again how Eddie Betts is a "key forward".

 

[Hoops]

I would rate Franklin about the same as Richardson.

 

[replicant]

This is perhaps the dumbest recurring statement.

Are you able to compare two things that are not identical?

"Nah they're different! Cant! Can't!"

It's truly weird.

The problem you have is you're pitting nostalgia against the present.

Things always look better when you remember them fondly.

Buddy is better.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

I would rate Franklin about the same as Richardson.

Despite Franklin being a clearly more potent goal-kicker.

 

[hawks787]

That remains to be seen.

I assume someone will make a case for Carey that relies on evidence and critical assessment, as opposed to "intangibles".

Am I being too optimistic?

Well, that merely assumes the current trend continuing.

It's a projection based on the status quo. Not exactly some far-fetched alternative reality.

Relevance?

If I said "none of it", you'd still have to make an argument.

Why? He's been great doing it a different way.

If Carey was the better forward, wouldn't he have kicked more goals?

I'm unable to do the multi quote replies.
As a key fundamental of the game, shouldn't the ability to mark the ball come into a discussion?

 

[Sweet Jesus]

The problem you have is you're pitting nostalgia against the present.

It shouldn't be that hard.

 

[LoungeLizard]

That's right.

Do you have some weird mental block about that?

Tell me again how Eddie Betts is a "key forward".

Do you have trouble reading, i said he is not a key forward.

Now, tell me how Buddy is a better key position player than Carey, if they played in the same side Carey would be playing the KP role and Buddy would be on a flank?

 

[PerthBoy87]

Richardson hugely under-rated. Played in some BOG average tigers sides and never had the help up forward. He absolutely killed it playing as a true CHF And up the wings more

I would rate Franklin about the same as Richardson.

I agree - Franklin reminds me of Richo in terms of his athletic ability and his aerobic fitness/big engine. Franklin isnt as good a contested marker as Richo was but I agree with what you are saying.

 

[thecatattack]

I would rate Franklin about the same as Richardson.

man what? how?

 

[Sweet Jesus]

As a key fundamental of the game, shouldn't the ability to mark the ball come into a discussion?

Sure. That's why I acknowledged Carey's edge in contested marking in the OP. It's in the discussion.

 

[hawks787]

the disrespect to buddy is pretty crazy

265 games and 838 goals so far. thats less games and over 100 more goals than carey

2x flags. would be more if he stayed at the hawks, possibly couldve had a norm smith if he stayed too

6x AA

3x coleman, including being the last player to kick 100 goals in a season

9x leading goal kicker at his respective clubs

first ever indigenous player to kick 750 goals, 13th in history.

he still has what? 5yrs left on his contract? that takes him to 35yrs old, if he kicks 50 goals a season in that time (which he has every year bar his first 2 and 2015 where he played 17 games) he'll end with close to 1100 career goals and over 350 games played

Like Carey, Buddy will be talked about for generations to come, not sure that's disrespectful ....... doesn't mean he's better.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Do you have trouble reading, i said he is not a key forward.

Your definition of "key forward" was a player who is "key" to a team's forwardline.

So how is Betts not a "key forward" according to that definition?

He's been Adelaide's leading goalkicker for the past three seasons.

The upshot is that your definition is ridiculous, and your use of it to characterise Ablett Sr's career was completely bogus.

Now, tell me how Buddy is a better key position player than Carey

Read the OP.

if they played in the same side Carey would be playing the KP role and Buddy would be on a flank?

You realise there are two key forward spots in a team? There's FF and CHF.

Would Carey be playing both of them?

You can't even make your own pointless hypothetical work.

 

[Ishmael_]

Franklin is a brilliant player with limitations, a supreme athlete and a wholly unique talent. However, he can't mark and his set shot kicking is pretty ordinary, further held back by his 'natural arc' and lack of right foot.

Carey on the other hand was a force of nature. You could set a team around him and they did. He was predictable and dominant and could mark. It's impossible to overstate how important it is for your key forward to be able to mark or get the ball to ground.

The posters trying to retroactively rate North's team are way off the mark. They weren't a bunch of schmucks, but they also weren't anywhere near the machines that Lance has played for. Carey dragged those teams along, Buddy hasn't, his departure made Hawthorn a better team. I think that's pretty damning.

 

[PerthBoy87]

Despite Franklin being a clearly more potent goal-kicker.

Franklin has played in a better team with more often then not - silver service delivery from the midfield. Richo got served up some rubbish in his career.

 

[The 747]

Of course it is. It's one of the metrics.

Why would you insist on using less information to make an argument either way?

OK. They played in different teams with different game plans. I'm not sure that makes the case either way.

Again, if we're sitting here in 2020 and Franklin has continued his current output, and by then has 300+ games and 1000+ goals, this kind of argument won't cut the mustard.

In that event, Franklin will have the edge in goal-kicking, athleticism, longevity and overall record. It won't be an intelligent answer to simply say: "Nah, Carey."

If people still think Carey, so be it. But make a real case.

Its one of the metrics yes but you are only using one metric in your argument - goals kicked - to compare a player whose primary role was not as the main goalkicker with one that is.

As for the rest I made my case for why Carey was superior, to say it is not a "real case" is a shallow debating technique when you have nothing meaningful to reply with.

Lockett kicked 1300 goals and he wasnt better than Carey so your weight of goals argument "wont cut the mustard" either.

 

[LoungeLizard]

Your definition of "key forward" was a player who is "key" to a team's forwardline.

So how is Betts not a "key forward" according to that definition?

He's been Adelaide's leading goalkicker for the past three seasons.

The upshot is that your definition is ridiculous, and your use of it to characterise Ablett Sr's career was completely bogus.

Read the OP.

You realise there are two key forward spots in a team? There's FF and CHF.

Would Carey be playing both of them?

You can't even make your own pointless hypothetical work.

You seem a little slow.
Betts is not key to Adelaides forward line, Ablett was key to Geelongs.

Do you think in the same team, Buddy would be playing FF instead of Longmire?
If you answer yes, you don't have much of a clue about football.

Now, you are the one that brought up the key and key position debate, so as a key position player, Carey shits on him.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Its one of the metrics yes but you are only using one metric in your argument - goals kicked - to compare a player whose primary role was not as the main goalkicker with one that is.

That is simply not true.

As for the rest I made my case for why Carey was superior, to say it is not a "real case" is a shallow debating technique when you have nothing meaningful to reply with.

As opposed to misrepresenting someone's argument to make it easier to rebut?

Lockett kicked 1300 goals and he wasnt better than Carey so your weight of goals argument "wont cut the mustard" either.

Yeah, good thing goals kicked isn't my only argument.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Betts is not key to Adelaides forward line, Ablett was key to Geelongs.

Betts has been Adelaide's leading goalkicker for the past three seasons.

How is he not "key"?

Is Jamie Elliott a key forward at Collingwood? He seems pretty key.

How about Robbie Gray at Port? Is he a key forward?

Do you think in the same team, Buddy would be playing FF instead of Longmire?

Not sure. Who else is in this imaginary team?

If you answer yes, you don't have much of a clue about football.

Good thing you warned me.

Now, you are the one that brought up the key and key position debate, so as a key position player, Carey shits on him.

Your logic is inescapable.

 

[hawks787]

Your definition of "key forward" was a player who is "key" to a team's forwardline.

So how is Betts not a "key forward" according to that definition?

He's been Adelaide's leading goalkicker for the past three seasons.

The upshot is that your definition is ridiculous, and your use of it to characterise Ablett Sr's career was completely bogus.

Read the OP.

You realise there are two key forward spots in a team? There's FF and CHF.

Would Carey be playing both of them?

You can't even make your own pointless hypothetical work.

In an AA side Buddy wouldn't be named at FF or CHF. Buddy would be on the flanks/wing as you've made many points about his running and athleticism. Difference is Carey would play at CHF.
Surely that scenario is telling.

 

[demondavey]

Carey could do it all, take pack marks, devastate an opposition backline in the same way as Lockett could, he regularly turned games off his own endevours. Franklin's strengths are his speed and good hands provided he gets a break on his opponent, he has great footy smarts and reads the play well. He is also a good kick for goal on the run and an enforcer (though an untidy one). Franklin has benefited from being at 2 clubs in Hawthorn and Sydney whose midfields have been renowned for their great ball delivery to a forward on a fast lead. To be the complete package Franklin would need to be able to take overhead and pack marks. I believe Franklin's absolute best is behind him, but he is still close to if not the best forward in the AFL today.

A comparison? Carey is a Legend Franklin is a Hall of Famer.

This crap about Franklin not taking pack marks like Carey is ridiculous. Franklin obviously plays to his strengths, as did Carey. Who cares how they do it? Franklin to date has played just shy of Carey's games and kicked more goals.

It's only because there is this perception that pack marking is a necessity. It isn't. It looks sexy on a highlights package. If you mark the ball but mark it down low it's just as effective.

 

[LoungeLizard]

Betts has been Adelaide's leading goalkicker for the past three seasons.

How is he not "key"?

Is Jamie Elliott a key forward at Collingwood? He seems pretty key.

How about Robbie Gray at Port? Is he a key forward?

Not sure. Who else is in this imaginary team?

Good thing you warned me.

Your logic is inescapable.

My logic is Carey is a way better key position player than Buddy, your logic is but, but Buddy has kicked more goals.

 

[demondavey]

In an AA side Buddy wouldn't be named at FF or CHF. Buddy would be on the flanks/wing as you've made many points about his running and athleticism. Difference is Carey would play at CHF.
Surely that scenario is telling.

Which is what is categorically wrong with how the AA team is selected. Every week Franklin is named at CHF for Sydney. If he is picked as an AA he should be named where he lines up every week.