Has Lance Franklin surpassed Wayne Carey as the greatest key forward of the modern era?

[MinerBoy]

That means nothing. Jack gets up the ground a lot and spends big chunks of games in the defensive half. He's also played fewer games than Lance.

Some seriously lol worthy stuff

Then why is Buddy averaging more disposals and inside 50's per game than Riewoldt, especially in a year where Buddy has been playing injured?

Because Buddy actually plays a lot further from goal than Jack and still averages more goals per game.

 

[Seeds]

Richo was Franklin before Franklin, I think they are the most similar InStyle. you need to remember that Richo played in some awful Richmond teams in the day and no wonder he got frustrated- they couldn’t hit the side of a barn and some times neither could he. But he was a beast. Buddy plays similar. Buddy is One of my favourite players to watch and football is all the better with players like him in it.

But can’t compare anyone to Carey, he was just that good. Different players anyway.

Richo was slow. Fraser Gehrig in his west coast days was franklin. Except Gehrig was a better mark.

 

[woota]

Haha good point.

I should have put "subjective" in there somewhere.

Carey vs Franklin, there are arguments to both sides which are valid. Which side you stand on depends which arguments you personally value more. For example a lot of people value the contested marking side to Carey's game so they elevate him which is fair enough. But these are essentially subjective opinions... neither side is stupid as you can make a valid case for both.

There's nothing subjective about a round Earth.

There is a scientific consensus that the earth is round. Meaning, the experts on the subject agree that the earth is round. Of course there's a few nutters on the sidelines who can't be reasoned with and assert that the earth is flat. Their opinion is not taken seriously by the broader scientific community.

There is a consensus that Wayne Carey is the best player to have ever played the game of AFL. Meaning, the experts on the subject (Coaches and former players who played against Carey) agree that he's the best ever. Of course there's a few armchair experts on the sidelines (people on this forum) who can't be reasoned with and assert that Franklin is a better player. Their opinion is not taken seriously by the broader football community.

 

[BEaston]

1. It seems you don't know what consensus means.
2. Comparing the scientific method to football opinions is laughable.
3. Appeal to authority fallacy (have you heard some of the rubbish these so-called "experts" come out with on a weekly basis?)

 

[woota]

2. Comparing the scientific method to football opinions is laughable.

I can see how it may have come off that way, but what I was trying to say is that the opinions of people that actually matter (the experts on the subject) agree that the earth is round. Similarly, the opinions of people that actually matter (which is not you, or me, or anyone else on this forum) agree that Carey was and is still is the best ever to play the game.

3. Appeal to authority fallacy (have you heard some of the rubbish these so-called "experts" come out with on a weekly basis?)

Right, so I should dismiss the opinions of Leigh Matthews and Paul Roos in favour of armchair experts on the internet.

 

[BEaston]

If only I had Sweet Jesus' stamina for going endless rounds with posters like you.... alas, bye.

 

[Hookster]

So sitting boundary side actually watching them today giving our opinions will mean nothing in 50 years because of stats?

U know what commentators are like "HE" won ?premierships, a brownlow, 3 b&f's mvp's, some of the great players won sfa but they were loyal. Like i have no idea how good collingwood or it's players were back in 1930.

 

[Brutalitops]

I can see how it may have come off that way, but what I was trying to say is that the opinions of people that actually matter (the experts on the subject) agree that the earth is round. Similarly, the opinions of people that actually matter (which is not you, or me, or anyone else on this forum) agree that Carey was and is still is the best ever to play the game.

Right, so I should dismiss the opinions of Leigh Matthews and Paul Roos in favour of armchair experts on the internet.

This from the guy who confidently asserts that Jack Riewoldt is better than Lance Franklin? Sorry bud, but you shouldnt post here no more. You dont even know what the topic is about and frankly, I doubt anyone takes your opinion seriously at this point. Go back to your flat Earth discord.

 

[woota]

This from the guy who confidently asserts that Jack Riewoldt is better than Lance Franklin? Sorry bud, but you shouldnt post here no more. You dont even know what the topic is about and frankly, I doubt anyone takes your opinion seriously at this point. Go back to your flat Earth discord.

You mean my opinion that carey is better than franklin, which 54% of people in the poll agree with?

 

[Brutalitops]

You mean my opinion that carey is better than franklin, which 54% of people in the poll agree with?

I think youre confusing "agree with me" with "have a similar opinion to me". And time will change that general opinion soon enough I feel. People had forgotten all about Hayden Bunton Snr, one who was considered the greatest of all time. And still is by the historians of the game.

Personally, i dont agree with the title of GOAT unless its in a specific context like greatest wingman, FB, or FP. And even then its very subjective oft times. But theres no context when someone says Jack Reiwoldt js better than Buddy. Thats either a Richmond supporter, a straight up troll or that person has an agenda. Thats how ridiculous that opinion is, and it discredits anything further you have to say. So I aint bothering with you anymore. Peace.

 

[Back One Out]

There is a consensus that Wayne Carey is the best player to have ever played the game of AFL. Meaning, the experts on the subject (Coaches and former players who played against Carey) agree that he's the best ever.

No, there's not.

Many people think Leigh Matthews was the best player ever. He won twice as many flags; won twice as many best and fairests; polled twice as many Brownlow votes and he kicked more goals

Ask Geelong people and they'll tell you Gary Ablett senior was the best ever

Ask any old-timer who was the best ever and you'll hear names such as John Coleman, Peter Hudson, Ted Whitten, Bob Skilton, Royce Hart, etc

Ask someone from WA and depending on their age, they'll tell you Polly Farmer, Barry Cable or Chris Judd

South Australians will tell you it's Barrie Robran or Russell Ebert

It's true that since Carey dominated the AFL in the mid 1990's, his name has been bracketed with those as the best ever, but there is hardly a consensus about it. And there never will be (which is why 82 page threads such as this one exist.)

Of course there's a few armchair experts on the sidelines (people on this forum) who can't be reasoned with and assert that Franklin is a better player. Their opinion is not taken seriously by the broader football community.

Disagree with this.

I personally think Wayne Carey was better than Buddy Franklin, but I have been surprised by the sheer number of people from the broader football community who rate Franklin as Carey's equal or better. Despite what some numbskulls say, playing up forward in this era is a much tougher gig than playing up forward in the 1990's - and Buddy is clearly the best forward of this era, so it's only natural he'll be compared to the best forwards of past eras. Only a dick would claim otherwise.

I think Buddy v Ablett snr is a better comparison - both freakish athletic superstars who roamed around the forward half of the ground and could score goals at will. Both more brilliant and spectacular as individuals than a champion like Carey who scored fewer goals, but played a more central role and made every teammate around him better.

 

[woota]

No, there's not.

Many people think Leigh Matthews was the best player ever. He won twice as many flags; won twice as many best and fairests; polled twice as many Brownlow votes and he kicked more goals

Ask Geelong people and they'll tell you Gary Ablett senior was the best ever

Ask any old-timer who was the best ever and you'll hear names such as John Coleman, Peter Hudson, Ted Whitten, Bob Skilton, Royce Hart, etc

Ask someone from WA and depending on their age, they'll tell you Polly Farmer, Barry Cable or Chris Judd

South Australians will tell you it's Barrie Robran or Russell Ebert

It's true that since Carey dominated the AFL in the mid 1990's, his name has been bracketed with those as the best ever, but there is hardly a consensus about it. And there never will be (which is why 82 page threads such as this one exist.)

Yeah, and if you ask a 10 year old West Coast supporter who is the best player ever, you'll probably get an answer like josh kennedy or jack darling. You're talking about the opinions of the layperson - I'm talking about the opinions of experts; people who actually played against carey, as well as coaches and commentators (former greats) who say that carey is the best they've ever seen. There is a consensus among those whose opinions that actually matter (former greats of the game, and people who played with and against carey) that carey is the best player they've ever seen (meaning he's better than franklin). There was a segment on one of those daytime football shows a few years ago (can't remember which one, but it was hosted by james brayshaw) where they got all the panelists (current and former players) and a number of other former greats to list their top 5 players ever. Nearly all of them had carey ranked #1. I have never seen any such expert claim that franklin is a better player than wayne carey. That opinion is reserved for the armchair experts like the people on this forum. To the contrary, I've seen experts like Paul Roos and Leigh Matthews refute the claim that franklin is as good as carey was.

 

[Mcgearzz]

Ease up

 

[99cents]

No, there's not.

Many people think Leigh Matthews was the best player ever. He won twice as many flags; won twice as many best and fairests; polled twice as many Brownlow votes and he kicked more goals

Ask Geelong people and they'll tell you Gary Ablett senior was the best ever

Ask any old-timer who was the best ever and you'll hear names such as John Coleman, Peter Hudson, Ted Whitten, Bob Skilton, Royce Hart, etc

Ask someone from WA and depending on their age, they'll tell you Polly Farmer, Barry Cable or Chris Judd

South Australians will tell you it's Barrie Robran or Russell Ebert

It's true that since Carey dominated the AFL in the mid 1990's, his name has been bracketed with those as the best ever, but there is hardly a consensus about it. And there never will be (which is why 82 page threads such as this one exist.)


Disagree with this.

I personally think Wayne Carey was better than Buddy Franklin, but I have been surprised by the sheer number of people from the broader football community who rate Franklin as Carey's equal or better. Despite what some numbskulls say, playing up forward in this era is a much tougher gig than playing up forward in the 1990's - and Buddy is clearly the best forward of this era, so it's only natural he'll be compared to the best forwards of past eras. Only a dick would claim otherwise.

I think Buddy v Ablett snr is a better comparison - both freakish athletic superstars who roamed around the forward half of the ground and could score goals at will. Both more brilliant and spectacular as individuals than a champion like Carey who scored fewer goals, but played a more central role and made every teammate around him better.

Interesting points- who would you take, in a phantom superstardraft?
I suppose it depends who else you have around them really.

Ablett had brownless and stoneham
carey had Longmire and mckernon
Franklin had roughead and breust/ not sure who at Sydney

 

[FlyHigh18]

All i know is whenever commentators, ex players, current players and experts talk about the greatest goal kickers in the game, it's usually about Carey, Ablett, Lockett etc. Buddy sometimes gets a mention every now and again thanks to the 10 games he decides to turn up to each year and his contribution to highlight reels.

 

[liz]

All i know is whenever commentators, ex players, current players and experts talk about the greatest goal kickers in the game, it's usually about Carey, Ablett, Lockett etc. Buddy sometimes gets a mention every now and again thanks to the 10 games he decides to turn up to each year and his contribution to highlight reels.

Sorry, but Carey isn't in the conversation when it comes to greatest goal kickers in the game. That's actually a conversation that doesn't require much judgement because it's a numerical argument - whether most number of goals, average goals per game, record goals in a season, Coleman medals.

Carey can be in the conversation about greatest forward ever, or even greatest player ever, but he's nowhere near when it come to greatest goal kicker.

 

[RUNVS]

All i know is whenever commentators, ex players, current players and experts talk about the greatest goal kickers in the game, it's usually about Carey, Ablett, Lockett etc. Buddy sometimes gets a mention every now and again thanks to the 10 games he decides to turn up to each year and his contribution to highlight reels.

Buddy is a much better goal kicker than Carey. I don't even think that point is up for debate.

 

[Back One Out]

Buddy: 8 x All Australian

He has gone past Carey: 7 x All Australian

Ablett was named in 4 x All-Australian teams (92, 93, 94, 95) and 4 x VFL Teams of the Year (84, 86, 89, 90)
So Buddy has more than equalled that achievement.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Buddy: 8 x All Australian

He has gone past Carey: 7 x All Australian

Who gives a s**t about AA selections?

 

[Back One Out]

Who gives a s**t about AA selections?

Me

 

[The Joker]

Who gives a s**t about AA selections?

Im not sure if serious

 

[RUNVS]

Who gives a s**t about AA selections?

They matter, and they give an indication on how a player is rated in the current context.

 

[Duskfire]

They matter, and they give an indication on how a player is rated in the current context.

While I would agree to a certain extent, I don't think they should be used as an argument for comparing the overall career of a best player. Ablett Snr only has 4 I believe - many many players have more - but it's not as if all those are better.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

They matter, and they give an indication on how a player is rated in the current context.

What does that even mean?

I started this thread so I obviously think there is a case for Franklin. But I wouldn't point to his AA tally as the smoking gun, beyond testifying to his longevity.

 

[RUNVS]

What does that even mean?

I started this thread so I obviously think there is a case for Franklin. But I wouldn't point to his AA tally as the smoking gun, beyond testifying to his longevity.

Not just longevity. It means that Buddy has been in the top 2 tall forwards in the league for 8 seasons, so it is longevity and also performing at an extremely high standard. How many players can honestly say they were the top of their position for 8 seasons.