Analysis Has Matt Finnis been a good CEO?

[George]

I'm aware, I'm borderline in how the board acts sometimes.

In what way?

 

[Mat Mann]

If he does go to Geelong I think the club will position that in a way of showing that that was part of the cleanout instead of Lethers just accepting a job elsewhere.

I don't think he'll leave however. What I am near certain of is that we will have a new look coaching panel around Ratten for 2022.

I've got enormous trust that Bassat will do what's right.

that should have happened last year, but I think COVID played a part.

 

[George]

that should have happened last year, but I think COVID played a part.

Majority of the assistants were under contract last year. Not to mention we actually did play and win a final lol so it wouldn't make much sense for a cleanout after the results of last season.

Majority of them OOC this year though

 

[Mat Mann]

Majority of the assistants were under contract last year. Not to mention we actually did play and win a final lol so it wouldn't make much sense for a cleanout after the results of last season.

Majority of them OOC this year though

and we still lost a heap of games badly, for me, last year was the anomaly, this year is back to the norm

 

[George]

and we still lost a heap of games badly, for me, last year was the anomaly, this year is back to the norm

Well we also beat Richmond, Port Adelaide & Adelaide within a week away from home, and the Dogs.

If the club were to review the year just coming off a losing semi final it's hard for me to see how a cleanout would be required.

We are in a much better position on that front now, given we are playing poorly coupled with the assistants being OOC. Very easy to sweep right through the place.

 

[gringo2011]

Well that's obvious but if you know what kind of campaigner Bassat is you'll rest easy knowing that he won't wait around for things to improve he will take action then and there.

That's all I hope for. Too many dickheads get left to their own devices with no accountability. We need a no fuss operator that gets the in fighting cleaned up and the club in one direction.

 

[George]

That's all I hope for. Too many dickheads get left to their own devices with no accountability. We need a no fuss operator that gets the in fighting cleaned up and the club in one direction.

Bassat's first year in charge was 2019. Lethlean came a year before that. Bassat didn't wait around for Richardson to see out his contract, he basically sacked him 3 quarters into the season and put Ratts in charge. At the end of that year we brought in 5 new players who all finished top 10 in the B&F in their first season (2020) and we had a reshuffle of the football department. Result of Bassat getting his feet under him in his first year resulted in us making and winning our first final in 9 years.

We lost the semi to the eventual premier so at the end of that season I don't know how anyone at the club could be justified in removing a handful of assistants after the performance we had last year. We can say we lost badly some weeks, I couldn't really care less - we won just as many when we thought we had no chance and importantly we won a final. Huge improvement on where we had been tracking in the years prior.

This year has been a disaster. We have been smashed with injury to key positions and to key players all year. That doesn't excuse the ridiculously poor performances (should never be losing by 10+ goals regardless of who is out there IMO) but it has allowed us to identify some issues - one is that our coaching team needs improvement, clearly not getting through to the players and not working the players hard enough. Thankfully most of the coaches are OOC end of this year so change can be made easily and significantly.

Second is our lack of depth. I won't budge on the opinion that our best 22 is actually very good, borderline top four. But we fall away badly after that, and I think the club missed the mark on their analysis of the list after a successful year - given we topped up with mature agers that, granted, were for depth, but I don't think the club thought we'd need to use them as often as we've done this year. Focus now is solely on the draft and that has been made public by the club and Lethers, and I believe that will be the focus for next year as well.

I am absolutely fine with giving them a second chance if they miss the mark once. Bassat identified problems in 2019, fixed them, and we finished 5th the following season. I am positive he will again identify problems and fix them, and we will bounce back next year - irrespective of the fact we will get an easier draw and probably won't have the same injury crisis.

I haven't been critical of anyone at the club except those that have consistently underperformed over a lengthy period. Ratten & Finnis are the only ones who are in positions of real influence that have been around a while. Both opinions either way are subjective, but I believe Finnis has been overall fantastic for our football club for reasons mentioned in the initial post along with what I've commented on in other threads over the last week or so. Ratten not so much, he has a history already at Carlton that was unsuccessful and history tells us tried coaches rarely ever work the second time around. Ratts is a great fella and the boys play for him but if it's not working it's not working, and he should definitely be on a shorter leash than most when examining his performance given he has coached at a senior level already before. I understand the difficulties to remove him because of his contractual circumstances but if he were OOC or we had the money I would turf him at years end.

To me, Bassat is like a dog with a bone. He won't let up until we are an incredibly strong football club. We are getting there. And if you look at his resume you will understand that we have someone who arguably has better credentials than anyone who has led this club ever before.

I just hope we see this season out without losing our damn minds (supporters I'm talking about) and trust that the ruthless nature of someone who has built globally successful businesses will operate in a manner that demands success - and his recent history in his short time at our club suggests he will do exactly that.

We can't let our history dictate our future. We need to put that stuff behind us and make decisions for the group of people and players we have right now.

 

[gringo2011]

Bassat's first year in charge was 2019. Lethlean came a year before that. Bassat didn't wait around for Richardson to see out his contract, he basically sacked him 3 quarters into the season and put Ratts in charge. At the end of that year we brought in 5 new players who all finished top 10 in the B&F in their first season (2020) and we had a reshuffle of the football department. Result of Bassat getting his feet under him in his first year resulted in us making and winning our first final in 9 years.

We lost the semi to the eventual premier so at the end of that season I don't know how anyone at the club could be justified in removing a handful of assistants after the performance we had last year. We can say we lost badly some weeks, I couldn't really care less - we won just as many when we thought we had no chance and importantly we won a final. Huge improvement on where we had been tracking in the years prior.

This year has been a disaster. We have been smashed with injury to key positions and to key players all year. That doesn't excuse the ridiculously poor performances (should never be losing by 10+ goals regardless of who is out there IMO) but it has allowed us to identify some issues - one is that our coaching team needs improvement, clearly not getting through to the players and not working the players hard enough. Thankfully most of the coaches are OOC end of this year so change can be made easily and significantly.

Second is our lack of depth. I won't budge on the opinion that our best 22 is actually very good, borderline top four. But we fall away badly after that, and I think the club missed the mark on their analysis of the list after a successful year - given we topped up with mature agers that, granted, were for depth, but I don't think the club thought we'd need to use them as often as we've done this year. Focus now is solely on the draft and that has been made public by the club and Lethers, and I believe that will be the focus for next year as well.

I am absolutely fine with giving them a second chance if they miss the mark once. Bassat identified problems in 2019, fixed them, and we finished 5th the following season. I am positive he will again identify problems and fix them, and we will bounce back next year - irrespective of the fact we will get an easier draw and probably won't have the same injury crisis.

I haven't been critical of anyone at the club except those that have consistently underperformed over a lengthy period. Ratten & Finnis are the only ones who are in positions of real influence that have been around a while. Both opinions either way are subjective, but I believe Finnis has been overall fantastic for our football club for reasons mentioned in the initial post along with what I've commented on in other threads over the last week or so. Ratten not so much, has has a history already at Carlton that was unsuccessful and history tells us tried coaches rarely ever work the second time around. Ratts is a great fella and the boys play for him but if it's not working it's not working, and he should definitely be on a shorter leash than most when examining his performance given he has coached at a senior level already before. I understand the difficulties to remove him because of his contractual circumstances but if he were OOC or we had the money I would turf him at years end.

To me, Bassat is like a dog with a bone. He won't let up until we are an incredibly strong football club. We are getting there. And if you look at his resume you will understand that we have someone who arguably has better credentials than anyone who has led this club ever before.

I just hope we see this season out without losing our damn minds (supporters I'm talking about) and trust that the ruthless nature of someone who has built globally successful businesses will operate in a manner that demands success - and his recent history in his short time at our club suggests he will do exactly that.

Well that's exactly what we need. No more 7 years to identify obvious issues. I'm actually looking forward to the purge. I think this year is the year we had to have to sort the back room out. We are getting held back by the lack of momentum over the Richo years. Lots can happen quickly if you do the work. It's amazing how many times hard work creates luck.

 

[George]

Well that's exactly what we need. No more 7 years to identify obvious issues. I'm actually looking forward to the purge. I think this year is the year we had to have to sort the back room out. We are getting held back by the lack of momentum over the Richo years. Lots can happen quickly if you do the work. It's amazing how many times hard work creates luck.

Yeah mate I agree. My honest assessment of the club is that off-field we are in a better position than we have ever been. I don't care for the debt given we now have a world class facility at Moorabbin and it was a deliberate decision the club made to bring us back to Moorabbin and cement our future in the competition first rather than pay off the debt - which is only a problem if we can't facilitate it and the way we are tracking with the new stadium deal, huge increases in membership, a return to crowds hopefully next year and a full sponsorship allocation tells me we shouldn't worry in the slightest about it. We are building key pillars of our football club and that to me is far more important.

Everything at the club has either been refreshed or rejigged in the last few years bar the assistant coaches and I reckon a fresh new group coming in will be good for us. Some of the guys there like Aaron Hamill and Danny Sexton have been there for ******* eons. They need to go, even if they are somewhat delivering on their agreed KPI's. At the moment it feels stale.

As for the playing group we normally churn the list by a dozen players every year but end of this season is a terrific opportunity to really move on some guys. Whether that be due to retirement, talent or form, I reckon there's easily 20 players that I wouldn't be surprised in us moving on. Not saying we will do it and very much doubt we will, but the injury crisis has actually created a bit of a silver lining in that we've seen how a few kids performed and a few others who are well past it that a decision on them at years end can be made with some kind of conviction at least. Highmore a good example of a young kid who clearly has talent and has been able to show it in the absence of Carlisle & Frawley who probably would've played before him if they weren't injured.

Overall I don't think it's all doom & gloom at all and I guess that's what annoys me reading some of the stuff on here. I get we're all pissed off, I'm right there with the rest of you guys. But I don't for a second believe we require the kind of clean-out some are suggesting. Clean-out the assistants for sure, but beyond that I reckon we back in the team we have and go again in 2022. We get a bit of (real) depth in the playing group and a new look on the gameplan with some fresh faces and it could turn very very quickly. I just cannot subscribe to the 'sack everyone' mantra. I also can't subscribe to the "it takes x amount of time to see change". Ratts last year is proof of that. We bring in people who are a good cultural fit and know football and it could come as early as next year.

 

[gringo2011]

Yeah mate I agree. My honest assessment of the club is that off-field we are in a better position than we have ever been. I don't care for the debt given we now have a world class facility at Moorabbin and it was a deliberate decision the club made to bring us back to Moorabbin and cement our future in the competition first rather than pay off the debt - which is only a problem if we can't facilitate it and the way we are tracking with the new stadium deal, huge increases in membership, a return to crowds hopefully next year and a full sponsorship allocation tells me we shouldn't worry in the slightest about it. We are building key pillars of our football club and that to me is far more important.

Everything at the club has either been refreshed or rejigged in the last few years bar the assistant coaches and I reckon a fresh new group coming in will be good for us. Some of the guys there like Aaron Hamill and Danny Sexton have been there for ******* eons. They need to go, even if they are somewhat delivering on their agreed KPI's. At the moment it feels stale.

As for the playing group we normally churn the list by a dozen players every year but end of this season is a terrific opportunity to really move on some guys. Whether that be due to retirement, talent or form, I reckon there's easily 20 players that I wouldn't be surprised in us moving on. Not saying we will do it and very much doubt we will, but the injury crisis has actually created a bit of a silver lining in that we've seen how a few kids performed and a few others who are well past it that a decision on them at years end can be made with some kind of conviction at least. Highmore a good example of a young kid who clearly has talent and has been able to show it in the absence of Carlisle & Frawley who probably would've played before him if they weren't injured.

Overall I don't think it's all doom & gloom at all and I guess that's what annoys me reading some of the stuff on here. I get we're all pissed off, I'm right there with the rest of you guys. But I don't for a second believe we require the kind of clean-out some are suggesting. Clean-out the assistants for sure, but beyond that I reckon we back in the team we have and go again in 2022. We get a bit of (real) depth in the playing group and a new look on the gameplan with some fresh faces and it could turn very very quickly. I just cannot subscribe to the 'sack everyone' mantra. I also can't subscribe to the "it takes x amount of time to see change". Ratts last year is proof of that. We bring in people who are a good cultural fit and know football and it could come as early as next year.

We need a clean out but not a rebuild. A broom through the assistants and some of the footy department can't hurt and rumours are that there is a fair amount of tension within the executive. I think the place will be better for shaking the carpet out and losing a few barnacles.

It's frustrating because we improve somethings but still make dumb mistakes. I'm like Bassat, can't be patient any more, just need to get everything right from here on in and in a quick manner.

Players will delist themselves this year. We should have no trouble churning.

 

[George]

We need a clean out but not a rebuild. A broom through the assistants and some of the footy department can't hurt and rumours are that there is a fair amount of tension within the executive. I think the place will be better for shaking the carpet out and losing a few barnacles.

It's frustrating because we improve somethings but still make dumb mistakes. I'm like Bassat, can't be patient any more, just need to get everything right from here on in and in a quick manner.

Players will delist themselves this year. We should have no trouble churning.

Agree and as for Bassat, I will leave you with this piece of incredible literature from none other than the omnipotent, brilliant mind of one Razor Ramon, who once said - "Hard work pays off & dreams come true. Bad times don't last, but bad guys do."

Praise to Andrew Bassat.

 

[Joffaboy]

isn't that kind of my point?

we have the numbers, we have the support, we just cant get the business model right. but clubs with inferior support have.

No it is not the point at all. Figures show we have got the business model right.

Even we a lack of success, our revenue streams and owners equity had grown extremely quickly.
Your arguments are cherry picking and actually incorrect from an accounting perspective.

 

[Joffaboy]

so we have near on doubled members and have greater involvement with fans....

but we are still posting operational deficits and we have doubled debt.

sounds great!!!!

Jesus mate give up, you have a distinct lack of accounting nous.
Concentrating on P/L and debt is ludicrous. You dont understand what you are on about.

 

[Roo Ted 77]

Can anyone tell me if we're in a position to run our own VFL team again or does it not make sense to do so?

I don't know a lot about the club itself as I stopped watching AFL in the mid 90's and didn't start again till probably 8yrs ago so any info is greatly appreciated.

 

[Ricmel]

So more interested, in who is that other person, or people, who woul dhave done better than Finnis, in hindsight, that we had options in attaining.

I feel like we missed a trick with Ameet Bains.

Matt Finnis did good work transitioning us back to Moorabbin - was he the messiah? No, moving away from Seaford was a no brainer. Moving back to Moorabbin had been the dream of most diehard Saints supporters since - well since we left Moorabbin. We had a very compliant and welcoming local council, most competent operators would finesse that move without too much difficulty. But Kudos to him for doing it well and securing a financial package for a great facility. Matt is a solid pair of hands with a strong moral compass but if you want to turn Apple into Apple - Matt is not the sort of personality that is going to do that for you. I personally felt that when Matt's 5 year "Road To 2018" failed comprehensively that we needed someone with more energy and urgency than Matt to go forward.

The talk about financial performance and membership numbers is completely irrelevant if you don't have proper benchmarking and consistent data points. If you increase membership by 100% in a 7 year period and the industry average over the same period and same measurements is 150% then you are still falling behind. I don't know where we sit with all that, but as I say, in corporate matters, Matt is a solid pair of hands.

I think there are two critical failings of the last 7 years.

One has been our inability to develop/establish a strong brand. This is going to be further tested with the Hawks move to Dingley. This is not uniquely a Finnis failure. St Kilda has been particularly inept at creating a brand for nearly 40 years. Moorabbin/Waverly/Seaford/Moorabbin/Tassie/New Zealand/China - no coach of longer than 6 years tenure - one marquee player since 1995 - poor engagement with traditional supporter base (particularly the Jewish community where we are very strong and Tassie likewise), more jumper designs than just about any other club, a very small AFL voice.

A lot of that is not Matt's doing but improving the situation has not been given enough weight in the KPIs.

The second failing has obviously been on the field. Again this is not unique to the Finnis administration but the tremendous opportunities we have had to first draft some superstars and second, with the move to Moorabbin, become a destination club (Bayside is the AFL players preferred location) have been wasted. Whilst Finnis is not directly responsible for drafting or recruiting, he is responsible for building the drafting and recruiting teams. He signs off ultimately.

Ameet was one of the rising stars in club world and the AFL HO had a very high opinion of him. For me, the board should have been grooming him to transition into the CEO role through 2017, taking over from 2018/19.

 

[Ricmel]

What the current admin has done in getting us back to Moorabbin, owning a $50m facility, record membership and being stable off field is remarkable.

I believe we own the plants and equipment, not the land. The "asset" value is listed for accounting purposes only, it is not a liquid asset (in the main). We can't go and sell the Huggins stand (unless someone wants to disassemble it and build it elsewhere and even then I am sure there would be lease provisions preventing this). The lease gives us some stability but if you focus just on realisable liquid assets, StKFC has about $1.7m and another $400k in the bank and about $12m of debt.

Cashflow is OK for now but there will come a time when maintenance of those "assets" will outstrip their value as tax write offs on the balance sheet. They are not appreciating assets in the way that property is for example.

Moorabbin was a great football move. Not sure it will ultimately prove to be a great financial move. The Hawks have taken a different route and will own the freehold to a massive complex in Dingley. That will be both an income generating and appreciating asset. A far preferable long term arrangement. If you project 15 years ahead and Hawks will be sitting on a liquid asset of estimated $250m vs Saints on a pile of buildings worth next to nothing and significant maintenance costs.

So on present arrangements, we will have two clubs in the same backyard. One with $250m in assets and huge revenue flows and one with depreciating and costly assets with marginal cash flow. It doesn't take much to imagine what 2040 could possibly look like.

 

[gringo2011]

Jesus mate give up, you have a distinct lack of accounting nous.
Concentrating on P/L and debt is ludicrous. You dont understand what you are on about.

The external narrative is that we have low attendance, huge debt, rely on hand outs, have a decade of poor performance etc. When you're going to talk to potential sponsors that stuff doesn't look like there is any nuance. On field success of at least the feeling of momentum is still the best way to attract and keep fans and sponsors engaged. This year is the North Melbourne marquee match on a larger scale.

 

[gringo2011]

Can anyone tell me if we're in a position to run our own VFL team again or does it not make sense to do so?

I don't know a lot about the club itself as I stopped watching AFL in the mid 90's and didn't start again till probably 8yrs ago so any info is greatly appreciated.

I don't think it happens until we have the AFL back running to pre COVID levels. It's a massive rebranding exercise and could be just as effective by investment in Sandringham.

 

[MeSaint]

I see the Kingston City Council being the biggers winners out of all of this. They have allowed an AFL/St Kilda funded state of the art sporting facility to be built in an area surrounded by previously semi industrial/ low value residential.

The council now has the imperative to act. Constant rezoning is now taking place, allowing high rise apartments and high density living surrounding this new council land owned sporting facility. The residents now have a great area to exercise, improving their physical wellbeing and mental health.

This could either go two ways:

* Our on-field success starts improving, balance sheet improves and all of the new residents start following their "local" team.

* Our debt escalates, our performances keep dropping, rusted on supporters lose interest. Leaseholds can be easily broken if both parties come to a mutual agreement.

I prefer the first option, we can't go backwards. I love St Kilda.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

That's all I hope for. Too many dickheads get left to their own devices with no accountability. We need a no fuss operator that gets the in fighting cleaned up and the club in one direction.

LOL like Jeff Kennet.
No infighting , my way or the highway.

"I won't interfere with what you do if you don't interfere with what i do.
But if you don't do it right i'll sack you. "

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

If you go back through comments - I think Finnis has been fantastic. Doesn’t change my belief something won’t be done years end. Dimma was in a bees tickle of being chopped. Goodwin was only a couple of years in. Im not involved enough to know the inner workings there whether either of them should have been sacked. Coaches do differ a lot from execs though. I’m some respects are a lot harder to get change given their forward focus involvement.

I think I may have been misunderstood in my thinking though. I like Matt. A lot. He’s a genuine nice guy that leads a good team. Think he’s done a great job. Do I believe there someone better out there currently for the role? Yes I do.

Lethers making a move for the top job?

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

it's almost like the football dept performance matters:
- moved on the Footy GM Pelchen for Cox, of which Cox had no footballing background. then 3 years later moved him on for Lethlean,
- extended Alan Richardson contract not 1 but 2, despite not making finals. this caused a stir on here when Richo was contracted for an additional year despite fans wanting him gone. replaced Richo with Ratten,
- promoted Ameet from TPP to List Manager then to COO. promoted Trout from head recruiter to List Manager. replaced Trout with Gags,
- promoted Libba to head recruiter.

does anyone expect sustained on-field success given some of those appointments?

Once again (even though you'll ignore it again as it shoots down your point), Pelchen was not moved on for Cox. They had vastly different roles. Its like saying that Richo was moved on for Roughy.

Cox didn't have to have a footballing background (he played state footy for Tassie anyway) as he wasn't charged with any coaching... his role was making the footy department working in a manner that provided for elite performance (an area that he did have significant experience in).

What doesn't cause a stir on here! Hardly proof the decision at the time was not a reasonable one (and, again, the extension was for 2 with the 2nd being a performance based option that wasn't triggered).

I don't get your point re: promoting Ameet & Libba. People rated highly getting promotions; unheard of!

Maybe you need to plant a money tree in Linton St if you have issues with these appointments.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

that part in bold is important.

unless we think the moorabbin project has more 10s of millions of funding coming in and further expansion and that it is considered more important than on-field results.

How could you consider that the re-development has no effect on on field results?

Wow. Talk about head in the sand.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

Pelchen was footy GM. Cox was footy GM. there's no two ways about it. Pelchen was moved on and Cox was his replacement.

Finnis explained the decision here: https://www.afl.com.au/news/42382/s...ll-chris-pelchen-resigns-after-lengthy-review

they wanted someone who could really drive the performance of the football department.

there is literally no evidence to support the claim that "He left because the AFL were pumping cash in & told us that we couldn't keep two blokes doing similar roles."

you can read more about it here:




i asked you if you thought he was doing a good job. i find it strange you would move on someone who is doing a good job.

i find it stranger that you would appoint someone with no background in football to a position that requires driving the performance of a football dept.

so i wasn't surprised they moved on cox.



strange the club thought it was best they moved him on too. strange that the person at the club told me of 2 significant issues in his space.



since when we do own a $50m facility. it's a leasehold. we don't even have $20m of assets in the annual report which you can read more about here:

https://resources.saints.com.au/aflc-stk/document/2020/12/22/904253eb-8a94-4a70-809b-68feb8eeff14/St-Kilda-Saints-Football-Club-2020-web-version-22-Dec-2020.pdf

EDIT: thinking about this more. even if Pelchens role was made redundant due to a duplication of responsibility, even if it was at the request of the AFL. it doesn't change what the aim was when fulfilling the role that Cox then occupied. unless you think the AFL told us to appoint Cox, if so i want to know who this mystery person at the AFL is that makes all these decisions for us. does that mean we have a duplication of roles given the AFL is doing a lot of the work for us?

Well if it's in the paper it must be true Pelchen actually confirmed the reasons for his departure in a radio interview.

Pelchen & Cox- Name of role the same, vastly different responsibilities.

People doing a good job lose their jobs all the time.

Opportunity to get Lethers in the door.

Trout; no doubt he was moved sideways to get him out the door. I doubt he had much influence on the list in that last year anyway. Reckon Lethers was the puppet master.

Joffaboy or sunny3193 will explain how much Moorabbin is worth to the club.

 

[Roo Ted 77]

I don't think it happens until we have the AFL back running to pre COVID levels. It's a massive rebranding exercise and could be just as effective by investment in Sandringham.

I'd love to see one big club all under the same brand but I guess there's plenty more to worry about.