Has Nic Naitanui Underachieved?

[HoneyBadger35]

If we’d drafted a midfielder in 2008 and they were still top five in the league for clearances 12 years later, we’d all probably be reasonably chuffed with that pick.

But we drafted a ruckman, and then he still did that. It’s a cherry picked stat by all means, but nobody can knock the ruck work, nobody can knock the midfield work. The biggest knock on the bloke is he’s suffered two knee recos (and still made two All Aus after them) and now his availability isn’t what it once was.

This is not directed at OP, but there’s some people on here who are that ******* joyless they’re robbing themselves of lapping up every moment of Nic Nat’s career. It’ll be a hell of a long time before we have anybody like him ever again.

 

[HoneyBadger35]

 

[Astro7]

Has carried the team and club on his back singlehandedly at times...short selective memories...and was tutored by one of the all time greatest ruckmen (and waving arm man) Dean Cox

Dean Cox

Age

42

Ht

203cm

Wt

107kg

Pos.

F/R

Career

Season

Last 5

D

15.9

4star

K

8.9

3star

HB

6.9

4star

M

5.3

5star

T

1.5

3star

G

0.6

4star

No current season stats available

D

13.0

4star

K

5.8

3star

HB

7.2

5star

M

4.8

5star

T

1.4

4star

G

0.0

1star

!

 

[ConcreteWaters]

Hahaha what a thread.
Multiple AAs, best and fairest, comes back from 2 knee recons and still manages to carry a midfield on his back.
We're not in the frame for a premiership in 2018 without him.

Not as influential as Cox, but jesus that's high bar to set when Cox changed the game.

 

[Nuke Fremantle]

The bar was set very high for Nicnat but bearing that in mind I would say on balance, yes.

Most of that can be put down to injuries but some of that I think is down to him not working sufficiently hard enough on his weaknesses, eg aerobic fitness and general link up play.

 

[Ambrose Burnside]

He was supposed to be a step up from Dean Cox who in turn was a step up from Michael Gardiner who in turn was a step up from Jason Ball.

In hindsight - Cox was a better player over a bigger period of time. NN didn’t surpass Cox.

I still like this. Your career wasn't as good as the greatest ruckman of all time, therefore you've underachieved.

Set the bar so high I can't even see it.

 

[Mop]

Hahaha what a thread.
Multiple AAs, best and fairest, comes back from 2 knee recons and still manages to carry a midfield on his back.
We're not in the frame for a premiership in 2018 without him.

Not as influential as Cox, but jesus that's high bar to set when Cox changed the game.

Is it?
We all love NN.
I can say I’ve been tickled by him physically. Can you?

I do wonder if draft day happened again a la Groundhog Day style if there’s anything he’d do differently?

Or is it a matter of we, as a general Eagles fandom, feel the Vic media perception of Nic is unfair re: being overweight or unfit

 

[Rowan18]

Just to set a baseline

I don’t expect Oscar Allen to eclipse JK’s legacy but I expect he’ll comfortably eclipse JD and Suma (and Quinten Lynch)

I expect Ginbey to be basically Brad Sheppard-esque. Maybe underrated but always hard at it. Shep is probably my second favourite ever Eagle so that’s no small comparison

Hewett? Not sure. Jury is out

I doubt OA can eclipse Darling. People forget that when Darling was Allen's age, he'd kicked more than 39 goals in 3 seasons (53 at his best in his second year) and played in a GF (2015). Also played 105 games.

Like Allen, he also missed a bunch of games with a serious foot injury.

 

[Truckosaurus]

Poll missed a legitimate chance to have a Jack Watts option

 

[Mop]

I still like this. Your career wasn't as good as the greatest ruckman of all time, therefore you've underachieved.

Set the bar so high I can't even see it.

Based on what he could’ve been? NN’s potential was heaps higher than old Ramrod Cox’s ever was.

 

[Mop]

Poll missed a legitimate chance to have a Jack Watts option

*. Yes it did. Fixed now

 

[Ochre]

Is it?
We all love NN.
I can say I’ve been tickled by him physically. Can you?

Yes but people here don't like hearing about others sex lives.

 

[Lia]

Considering luck with injuries, no.

 

[Ambrose Burnside]

Based on what he could’ve been? NN’s potential was heaps higher than old Ramrod Cox’s ever was.

Who cares about potential when Cox, even when Nic Nat was drafted, was the best ruckman ever.

 

[Truly Lazuli]

Is it?
We all love NN.
I can say I’ve been tickled by him physically. Can you?

I do wonder if draft day happened again a la Groundhog Day style if there’s anything he’d do differently?

Or is it a matter of we, as a general Eagles fandom, feel the Vic media perception of Nic is unfair re: being overweight or unfit

I've been tickled by Pink

 

[Goroyals22]

The answer would be no but then the question is has he been allowed to get the best out of himself and has he allowed himself to??

In 2011 and 2012 he kicked 18 and 24 goals and only once since has he gotten into double figures in 2015..

Instead of playing 3 mins and running off he should have been played forward a lot more than he has been…. Is that his fault or the coaches? Probably both.

 

[ConcreteWaters]

Is it?
We all love NN.
I can say I’ve been tickled by him physically. Can you?

I do wonder if draft day happened again a la Groundhog Day style if there’s anything he’d do differently?

Or is it a matter of we, as a general Eagles fandom, feel the Vic media perception of Nic is unfair re: being overweight or unfit

I can- what an absolute beast.
He's always been a burst athlete, and I'd trust the professionals to be on top of his weight/fitness compared to role in the team (winning taps and getting contested possessions). If he was converted to an endurance athlete/accumulator maybe he loses some power/leap/tackling ability/burst power (he's very quick for a big man over short distances). I don't know if the vic media has ever called him overweight, that seems to be a prevailing view of this board.

In his later years he's done amazingly well for a bloke post 2 knee recos. Watched him from his early days at Swan Districts, I can't see why you would change his unique attributes. If we had draft day again, who would you take above him?

 

[Mop]

I can- what an absolute beast.
He's always been a burst athlete, and I'd trust the professionals to be on top of his weight/fitness compared to role in the team (winning taps and getting contested possessions). If he was converted to an endurance athlete/accumulator maybe he loses some power/leap/tackling ability/burst power (he's very quick for a big man over short distances). I don't know if the vic media has ever called him overweight, that seems to be a prevailing view of this board.

In his later years he's done amazingly well for a bloke post 2 knee recos. Watched him from his early days at Swan Districts, I can't see why you would change his unique attributes. If we had draft day again, who would you take above him?

Im not saying I’d take anyone - I did think by the time he retired he’d have more a legacy than he does, but injury wrecked his GF and we’ve been dogshit, and COVID.

 

[HoneyBadger35]

Im not saying I’d take anyone - I did think by the time he retired he’d have more a legacy than he does, but injury wrecked his GF and we’ve been dogshit, and COVID.

I think his legacy will be our best player to never win a flag, with all due respect to Priddis. He was cruising in 2018, and I know we won in the end but there’s no argument for him making us worse that year. Even after the second reco and coming back, I remember Buckley conceding the ruck to Nic and benching Grundy so they didn’t waste one of their best assets just getting towelled up by a post reco Naitanui.

Covid years? He won back to back B+F and was pretty much the only watchable part of the Eagles for large stretches.

He’s by no means our second best player but, 2000 onwards, he is second only to Judd in my feeling of “if we’ve got ____, we’ve got a chance”. For a decade it’s always felt like if Nic was playing, we had a chance to win the clearance/quarter/game. That’s his legacy to me (plus all the actual accolades).

 

[Keys]

There’s a common perception that Naitanui being overweight (he is, not arguing that) is the result of him being lazy or unwilling to put in the work to shed some kilos and/or he doesn’t look after his diet. That may well be the case but consider this :

He arrived at the club for the 2009 season as a raw, athletic ruck with a unique skill set. We also had the dominant ruckman in the competition, Dean Cox

Dean Cox

Age

42

Ht

203cm

Wt

107kg

Pos.

F/R

Career

Season

Last 5

D

15.9

4star

K

8.9

3star

HB

6.9

4star

M

5.3

5star

T

1.5

3star

G

0.6

4star

No current season stats available

D

13.0

4star

K

5.8

3star

HB

7.2

5star

M

4.8

5star

T

1.4

4star

G

0.0

1star

, who was coming off 4 consecutive AA selections. A feature of Cox’s game was his aerobic capacity to cover the ground

We didn’t need another aerobic beast so Naitanui was developed as an impact player increasingly taking centre bounces and resting forward as a marking target

It worked. In 2012, both Naitanui and Cox made the AA team forming one of the most dangerous ruck combinations ever

At the end of 2012, however, Naitanui developed OP which required surgery and severely compromised his 2013 season. For the first time in his career he missed multiple games (11)

By 2015, Cox had retired and Naitanui was the main man leading our ruck and made the AA squad although Goldstein won the nod

In 2016 he developed an Achilles problem that required mid season surgery before doing his ACL shortly after his return

Essentially he’d been developed as a power athlete capable of impacting games in short bursts whilst Cox was in the team. I could be wrong but I don’t think his work ethic was seriously questioned although there were the usual criticisms from over east about his marking, positioning, etc

It’s come out now that he’s been managing an Achilles issue for years, probably since the operation in 2016

It’s entirely possible that a combination of reconstructions to both knees plus an ongoing Achilles issue has compromised his ability to get the sort of running in to build fitness and lose weight

So maybe he is lazy. Or alternatively, a bloke who fought his way back from two knee reconstructions just isn’t capable of putting in the miles no matter how hard he works because his body just won’t hold up to the workload

 

[Rowan18]

There’s a common perception that Naitanui being overweight (he is, not arguing that) is the result of him being lazy or unwilling to put in the work to shed some kilos and/or he doesn’t look after his diet. That may well be the case but consider this :

He arrived at the club for the 2009 season as a raw, athletic ruck with a unique skill set. We also had the dominant ruckman in the competition, Dean Cox, who was coming off 4 consecutive AA selections. A feature of Cox’s game was his aerobic capacity to cover the ground

We didn’t need another aerobic beast so Naitanui was developed as an impact player increasingly taking centre bounces and resting forward as a marking target

It worked. In 2012, both Naitanui and Cox made the AA team forming one of the most dangerous ruck combinations ever

At the end of 2012, however, Naitanui developed OP which required surgery and severely compromised his 2013 season. For the first time in his career he missed multiple games (11)

By 2015, Cox had retired and Naitanui was the main man leading our ruck and made the AA squad although Goldstein won the nod

In 2016 he developed an Achilles problem that required mid season surgery before doing his ACL shortly after his return

Essentially he’d been developed as a power athlete capable of impacting games in short bursts whilst Cox was in the team. I could be wrong but I don’t think his work ethic was seriously questioned although there were the usual criticisms from over east about his marking, positioning, etc

It’s come out now that he’s been managing an Achilles issue for years, probably since the operation in 2016

It’s entirely possible that a combination of reconstructions to both knees plus an ongoing Achilles issue has compromised his ability to get the sort of running in to build fitness and lose weight

So maybe he is lazy. Or alternatively, a bloke who fought his way back from two knee reconstructions just isn’t capable of putting in the miles no matter how hard he works because his body just won’t hold up to the workload

I'm not sure about that. Diet is the main influence on weight and he could maintain cardio fitness by swimming and cycling.

It could be that they wanted him heavy to fulfil his inside work when the ball hits the ground. Often he can gain a good 20m just by pushing pushing pack forward.

I think Nic's biggest downside is what happens when he is not on the field. The coaches never figured out how to get a second ruck that could play 40% TOG as a ruck and be useful in another position. Oscar Allen managed for a bit, but it smashed up his body too much.

 

[Matera92]

flame suit on

Yes he has.

Firstly, he's had an incredible career no doubt, and will go down as the second best ruckman to ever play for West Coast. In full flight, only Polly Farmer was a better tap ruckman. His groundwork and ability to be a wrecking ball at the clearances, and his tackling when he was younger/more mobile was peerless.

However.

How has his game improved from day one? He's absolutely maximised his strengths but the truly great players also work on their weaknesses and I can't think of a single one that NN has improved on that wasn't a knock on his game pre draft. He's never been a true threat up forward, nor a true marking target around the ground, and certainly he's rarely the player going back in the dying stages to take game saving marks. Now, I don't think anyone expected him to become an aerobic beast, but find me player who has by design played a lower percentage of game time than NN in the last decade that was on the money he was.

His inability to get on top of his conditioning for whatever reasons has really hampered his career. Just before he did his first knee he'd come back from a layoff looking noticeably heavier, nekminut ACL injury.

Did the rehab, but still kept the weight and bam...second knee.

Had to further double down on his contested game due to losing a huge amount of athleticism and to his credit, did so well enough to nab him two AA's however for anyone to sit there and suggest he hasn't let himself down with his conditioning over the past 5 years is flat out lying to themselves.

I have thoroughly enjoyed watching his career and he is a club champion however I think he could have been soooo much better. Partially due to bad luck however there's no doubt he also has had a large part to play in it as well.

I really hope he gets a few good games in for however long he has left in his career but it's sad to me that it's more of a hope than an expectation now.

 

[WCE_phil]

Anyone saying yes is a campaigner and can * off.

For what he has suffered to achieved what he has is extraordinary. Most people don't know the half of it either.

 

[squashface]

It’s entirely possible that a combination of reconstructions to both knees plus an ongoing Achilles issue has compromised his ability to get the sort of running in to build fitness and lose weight

So maybe he is lazy. Or alternatively, a bloke who fought his way back from two knee reconstructions just isn’t capable of putting in the miles no matter how hard he works because his body just won’t hold up to the workload

Or maybe a guy who has had multiple knee recos, OP and achillies soreness for a number of years will probably get injured if he was forced to do more minutes and run more games out so they decided to bulk him up and use him sparingly as a power athlete instead.

And I mean, it worked - he has multiple AAs and BnFs. But the BF nuffies will whinge and whinge that he's not this trim endurance athlete because they think that NN doing more minutes = NN having the same impact over a longer time and not him more than likely getting injured.

 

[WCE_phil]

Going back to yelling at clouds.